Gun control debate

[StrangeSox]

I am certain you would feel safer that the paranoid guy who you just accidentally brushed into is now screaming at you and *might* be carrying a weapon. Of course you could pull out your gun to protect yourself. But then three other guys, who don't know if you're some wacko pull out theirs and we have a party!

 

The true thugs know that honest people are hesitant to pull a trigger and kill someone. Texas executes hundreds, has a concealed permit system, and Texas isn't safer than any other state.

 

Y'all ain't taking my guns, but hundreds of guns in that building would not have prevented this and may have made it worse.

 

Tex, when does the situation you proposed ever really happen in states with concealed carry permits?

 

As it stands, I'm completely defenseless against those thugs. They can do anything they want and I really can't stop them since they're armed and I'm not. Same situation yesterday at VT.

 

And, really, saying "hundreds of guns" or "everyone has a gun" is just a straw man. Only people who wanted to take the time to get certified and spend several hundred or thousand dollars on guns and ammo would be carrying, not every single person.

[southsider2k5]

Meaning?

 

I just copy and pasted what you said earlier. If you want to argue against fear and conjecture it one instance, it doesn't make sense to use it in your very next response as a basis for your arguement. We can all sit here and "what if" ourselves to death, and the debate will go absolutely no where (which seems to be exactly where this thread is going so far). I just wanted to point out the inconsistancies of the posts.

[StrangeSox]

Bingo.

 

I am for a persons right to have arms to protect their house, or to hunt. But conceal and carry is a dangerous mix. The average person doesn't have a gun on them when they walk around, so when tempers rise and maybe with the presence of alcohol how many fights will turn into gun battles. As a former law enforcement person I can tell you, if I had a call on a man with a gun and then came into a situation with a gun drawn and saw him. If he pointed it at me I would of killed him. How am I supposed to know that this is Jimmy the good Samaritan gun guy, versus the bad guy who just shot a bunch of people. I wouldn't. I can tell you this, no matter how man times you do it as an officer. The minute your gun comes out of your holster, your adrenaline pumps. But then again, maybe it was because I knew that the minute my weapon was pulled that something could happen at a moments notice. One bad move or bad decision on either my side or the other persons side could lead to tragedy.

 

When does this ever happen in states with concealed carry?

[Texsox]

One more gun in the hands of a responsible person, easily differentiated from the murdering gunman, on that campus would have stopped this.

 

Fixed.

 

Or perhaps a murdering, psycho with a knife instead of a gun.

[StrangeSox]

Really? If that person pulled out their gun what if others thought that he/she was part of the shooting spree and they decided to shoot at that person. Wouldn't chaos ensue? How do you know who the good guy is when you hear shots being fired and you see someone holding a gun down the hallway? Do you just shoot at anyone holding a gun?

 

It was a panicked situation. The victim would have pulled out their gun and hopefully neutralized the threat. Situation over. No one is going to then turn on the victim.

 

 

Fixed.

 

Or perhaps a murdering, psycho with a knife instead of a gun.

 

One person sitting in a classroom firing back at the wacko who just busted in the door, guns blazing, is pretty distinguishable.

[southsideirish71]

One more gun in the hands of a responsible person on that campus would have stopped this.

 

You realize that this isnt as easy as you make it out to be. Take some 60f target practice, and slightly move your hand. You miss the target and it goes into the trap in the back. Now imagine someone is shooting at you, you hear bullets whistling by. Now can you line up your target, pull the trigger and hit the body mass. Because if you miss, your bullet now whistles by his body, and then continues on until its energy is depleted. So hopefully people aren't around. Plus you realize that the guy had a bullet proof vest. So you want to take him down, we are talking about a moving head shot while he shoots at you. A sniper, or swat guy sure but its still a difficult shot.

Edited April 17, 2007 by southsideirish71

[StrangeSox]

You realize that this isnt as easy as you make it out to be. Take some 60m target practice, and slightly move your hand. You miss the target and it goes into the trap in the back. Now imagine someone is shooting at you, you hear bullets whistling by. Now can you line up your target, pull the trigger and hit the body mass. Because if you miss, your bullet now whistles by his body, and then continues on until its energy is depleted. Plus you realize that the guy had a bullet proof vest. So you want to take him down, we are talking about a moving head shot while he shoots at you. A sniper, or swat guy sure but its still a difficult shot.

 

On the flip side, it'd make it harder for the murderer too. In yesterday's case, he knew he could just stroll around the building for several minutes until the police showed up and do as he wished. If someone were firing back, maybe he doesn't get to kill people execution style as easily and runs out of ammo sooner.

 

The guy didn't have a bullet proof vest, either. It was a vest with ammo strapped to it.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

Tex, when does the situation you proposed ever really happen in states with concealed carry permits?

 

As it stands, I'm completely defenseless against those thugs. They can do anything they want and I really can't stop them since they're armed and I'm not. Same situation yesterday at VT.

 

And, really, saying "hundreds of guns" or "everyone has a gun" is just a straw man. Only people who wanted to take the time to get certified and spend several hundred or thousand dollars on guns and ammo would be carrying, not every single person.

 

The only situation I can remember when a "good Samaritan" who was carrying, stopped a massacre like this was a few months back in Utah. Guess what? He was an off duty cop.

 

I don't want a bunch of Rambo wannabes getting in the way of police, confusing the situation, and shooting around me or my family. I'll take my chances with one psycho and law enforcement.

 

More guns ratchets up the violence. Criminals aren't going to stop because you might be carrying, they will just become more likely to shoot. After all they are criminals who are using a gun already. These criminals have already crossed a threshold beyond the smash and grab guys and petty thieves.

[StrangeSox]

The only situation I can remember when a "good Samaritan" who was carrying, stopped a massacre like this was a few months back in Utah. Guess what? He was an off duty cop.

 

There was also a case of a junior high principle retrieving his revolver from his car and ending a situation before anyone got killed, including the shooter.

 

 

I don't want a bunch of Rambo wannabes getting in the way of police, confusing the situation, and shooting around me or my family. I'll take my chances with one psycho and law enforcement.

 

More guns ratchets up the violence. Criminals aren't going to stop because you might be carrying, they will just become more likely to shoot. After all they are criminals who are using a gun already. These criminals have already crossed a threshold beyond the smash and grab guys and petty thieves.

 

that was my question. When does situations like "a bunch of Ramo wannabes" ever occur in the states that have concealed carry? It seems like its a non-problem.

 

32 people took their chances with law enforcement yesterday and proved, once again, that police can't be everywhere at once and often just take too long to respond. People deserve the right to defend their own lives.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

One person sitting in a classroom firing back at the wacko who just busted in the door, guns blazing, is pretty distinguishable.

 

Do you give the guy who just busted in the door a chance to shoot? Is he the shooter intent on killing you or is he a good Samaritan coming to protect you? thinkquick, you've been hiding in that classroom waiting for your chance. He's COMING FOR YOU! Save everyone!!

 

Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations?

 

If you make a mistake, and kill someone, what, if any, punishment should you receive?

[southsideirish71]

Do you give the guy who just busted in the door a chance to shoot? Is he the shooter intent on killing you or is he a good Samaritan coming to protect you? thinkquick, you've been hiding in that classroom waiting for your chance. He's COMING FOR YOU! Save everyone!!

 

Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations?

 

Swat teams train in a killhouse scenario. Close quartered combat, which is hard for a person to pick out who is the bad guy and who isn't. If I went into room and had 2 people with guns, as I was trained you treat both of them as hostiles until they disarm. If I was to sit and say, well Jimmy in the back doesn't look too threatening shooting the gun at the guy up front I am probably dead.

Edited April 17, 2007 by southsideirish71

[EvilMonkey]

It's not that easy to get a concealed carry permit, so not every wacko you may bump into would be packing. it costs money, background checks and time. Your scenerios of doom are just fantasies.

 

I wonder how long it will be until we get some new, knee-jerk legislation regarding this incident?

Edited April 17, 2007 by Alpha Dog

[StrangeSox]

Do you give the guy who just busted in the door a chance to shoot? Is he the shooter intent on killing you or is he a good Samaritan coming to protect you? thinkquick, you've been hiding in that classroom waiting for your chance. He's COMING FOR YOU! Save everyone!!

 

People with concealed carry permits know how to handle a gun. They're not just a bunch of untrained boobs.

 

What if some sort of police-style training was given in order to get the permit?

 

Shout "drop it!" and if he makes an offensive-looking move, open up.

 

Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations?

 

So they can respond several minutes after the situation begins and after 32 people have been shot to death?

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

People with concealed carry permits know how to handle a gun. They're not just a bunch of untrained boobs.

 

What if some sort of police-style training was given in order to get the permit?

 

Shout "drop it!" and if he makes an offensive-looking move, open up.

 

 

Why do you think we train, retrain, and train some more police in these situations?

 

 

So they can respond several minutes after the situation begins and after 32 people have been shot to death?

 

When he yells drop it, do you?

 

And what punishment, if any, do you deserve if you kill a good Samaritan?

 

 

It's not that easy to get a concealed carry permit, so not every wacko you may bump into would be packing. it costs money, background checks and time. Your scenerios of doom are just fantasies.

 

I wonder how long it will be until we get some new, knee-jerk legislation regarding this incident?

 

I have one, anyone else here take the class?

[StrangeSox]

When he yells drop it, do you?

 

And what punishment, if any, do you deserve if you kill a good Samaritan?

 

What laws are currently on the books in states with concealed carry?

 

It seems like we have plenty of real-world evidence to go on instead of all of these straw-men fantasy events.

 

When have rambo's gotten in the way of police? Killed the wrong person instead of the murderer? etc. etc.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[EvilMonkey]

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...EWS01/303230014

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dispatch/c...hp?story=250554

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...L1803/702190386

http://dispatch.com/dispatch/contentbe/dis...1214-A1-02.html

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/15785046.htm

 

Just a few stories where guns have saved people, for reflection.

[southsideirish71]

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...EWS01/303230014

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dispatch/c...hp?story=250554

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...L1803/702190386

http://dispatch.com/dispatch/contentbe/dis...1214-A1-02.html

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/15785046.htm

 

Just a few stories where guns have saved people, for reflection.

 

Guns at home for protection. Excellent. I have no problem. If you break into my home, you will meet the business end of a glock.

 

But that has nothing to do with Jimmy at the library who has a 45 in his pants.

[StrangeSox]

Guns at home for protection. Excellent. I have no problem. If you break into my home, you will meet the business end of a glock.

 

But that has nothing to do with Jimmy at the library who has a 45 in his pants.

 

Can you provide some stories where Jimmy at the library made matters worse in a deadly situation with another gunman? We have plenty of states with concealed carry.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

And the whole point of the 2nd amendment is that we can't trust the government.

 

Really. The government added the 2nd amendment against themselves?

 

How about a well regulated militia. What does regulated and militia mean to you? What militia will you be a part of? How will you be regulated?

[StrangeSox]

Really. The government added the 2nd amendment against themselves?

 

Yes. They were well aware of the threats of tyranny, having just staged a rebellion.

 

The 2nd Amendment doesn't require a well-regulated militia by law for gun ownership. It says that well-regulated militias are necessary and therefore people have the right to bear arms. It does not say that you must be part of a militia in order to bear arms.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Soxy]

Guns at home for protection. Excellent. I have no problem. If you break into my home, you will meet the business end of a glock.

 

But that has nothing to do with Jimmy at the library who has a 45 in his pants.

I agree 100% with you.

 

I come from a family that uses guns for recreation (both of my parents, especially my mom) were excellent trap shooters--so I grew up around guns. But I don't think that I would feel more safe sitting class thinking that a bunch of my students had guns. It's easy to make a mistake with a gun--no one hits the target every time (especially in conditions outlined in your previous post) and I fear that more innocent people may be harmed if everyone carried a concealed gun.

 

Also, people I don't think a conceal and carry law would have helped at all here. The victims were students (in an early morning class) and professors. Who the heck would think to bring a gun to class? Who would think that was necessary and a worthwhile thing to do? Never in my very long college career have I ever thought it would be necessary. It wouldn't be worth the time or effort to pack it and bring it to class. Off the top of my head I can think of about 4 times in the last 40 years something like this has happened. The Texas clocktower, Montreal Tehcnical school, another one that is more vague in my memory and now VA Tech. Even if there was a conceal and carry law I doubt it would have mattered--those kids and professors wouldn't have brought guns to class because they thought it was a safe place; and I think that's what makes this crime all that much more horrific.

[Texsox]

What laws are currently on the books in states with concealed carry?

 

It seems like we have plenty of real-world evidence to go on instead of all of these straw-men fantasy events.

 

When have rambo's gotten in the way of police? Killed the wrong person instead of the murderer? etc. etc.

 

Do you drop it when he yells drop it? You said if the guy doesn't drop, you will shoot. Should he shoot you if you don't drop it?

 

You could be charged with manslaughter, is that fair?

 

We also have real world evidence that violent crimes are rising, is that because of concealed carry laws? I'm repeating what most police officers say, they enter a building with multiple gunmen, some innocent, some guiilty, and it makes the situation worst. Disagree if you want. I'll take law enforcement on my side. But I'm a law and order type who respects the police, not some wimpy liberal who dislikes law and order.

 

 

Yes. They were well aware of the threats of tyranny, having just staged a rebellion.

 

The 2nd Amendment doesn't require a well-regulated militia by law for gun ownership. It says that well-regulated militias are necessary and therefore people have the right to bear arms. It does not say that you must be part of a militia in order to bear arms.

 

Care to tackle well regulated militia and how that applies to you and your gun? I assume then that you are part of a militia against any government tyranny and ready to take on Nuke and his weapons. How brave of you, good luck.

[hitlesswonder]

Guns at home for protection. Excellent. I have no problem. If you break into my home, you will meet the business end of a glock.

 

But that has nothing to do with Jimmy at the library who has a 45 in his pants.

 

There are numerous examples of gun bans only increasing violence, see here. I have yet to read about any of the scenarios Texsox is describing happening in places with concealed carry laws. It's much more likely that a concealed carry law would have made the situation at VTU better, not worse. I'm all in favor of strict and enforced laws reagrding gun ownership. If people want waiting periods, background checks, strict training with periodic re-examinations (like with driver licenses), and forfeiture of gun ownership rights for committing as much as a misdemeanor offense that's fine with me. But I do believe guns in the hands of resposible citizens save lives. Also, the 2nd amendment doesn't restrict a citizen to only keep a gun in a home; it assures a citizen of the right to bear arms in public.

[StrangeSox]

Do you drop it when he yells drop it? You said if the guy doesn't drop, you will shoot. Should he shoot you if you don't drop it?

 

No, I sure as hell don't. And if he makes a move at me, I fire. I will protect my own life (and the lives of my family) at all costs and above all others.

 

You could be charged with manslaughter, is that fair?

 

Depends on how negligent you were. That's why we have courts to make judgments on individual cases.

 

We also have real world evidence that violent crimes are rising, is that because of concealed carry laws?

Is it in states with ccp?

 

I'm repeating what most police officers say, they enter a building with multiple gunmen, some innocent, some guiilty, and it makes the situation worst. Disagree if you want. I'll take law enforcement on my side. But I'm a law and order type who respects the police, not some wimpy liberal who dislikes law and order.

Care to tackle well rugulated militia and how that applies to you and your gun?

 

I'll take the fact that I'd rather be able to defend myself and the many, many situations in which the police just couldn't respond quickly enough (not their fault, just reality).

 

Here's a book written by a statistician. He was trying to prove that less guns means less crimes. He completely changed his mind as he researched the book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime...g/dp/0226493636

 

 

Care to tackle well regulated militia and how that applies to you and your gun? I assume then that you are part of a militia against any government tyranny and ready to take on Nuke and his weapons. How brave of you, good luck.

 

The right to bear arms is the right of the people, not of the militia. No condition is given that you must be in a militia.

Edited April 17, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

So they just mentioned well regulated militia being necessary, but it doesn't have any bearing on why they thought you should be able to carry a loaded weapon while grocery shopping or attending class.

 

Like I said before, y'all aint taking my guns, but the constitutional argument and home safety when kids are involkved doesn't hold weight with me.