Gun control debate

[Balta1701]

All good and true but the fact is there are states that allow concealed weapons right now. The fears you speak of have not happened. So why assume they would in other parts of the country? I'm failing to see the logic here.

 

And really, crazy things happen all the time with police officers enforcing the laws. Bullets ricochet and hit unintended targets, police chases often end in collateral damage, etc etc. None of these were intended and all of these are considered acceptable loses in the name of enforcing the law. So whats the difference if there are a few occasions throughout the country where innocent people get hurt or killed?

I think my main point is that there are different levels of gun control that are appropriate for different situations.

 

Simple example. Please, if you will...I would like for one person here to tell me that the city of Los Angeles allowing people to carry concealed weapons legally would make this city a safer place. Probably ditto New York.

 

There are some places where increasing the number of guns or putting them on the streets is just not going to do anything but get a lot more people killed. I think that most businesses and most universities are similar places...I just don't want the people walking past me on campus to be carrying unless they're wearing security shirts.

[StrangeSox]

We don't know the results of the situations that you proposed.

 

We do know that banning guns doesn't stop gun violence and doesn't lower violent crime. It's been shown repeatedly.

[Texsox]

Quit going to such crazy extremes for situations you know never exist. It dilutes what little credible argument you have. Noone argued anywhere that everyoone should be able to carry a gun. You and Tex made those assumptions in your fear-based statements. Southside irish raised the best points so far, without resorting to gross exagerations.

 

I mentioned a dozen carrying in that building. At what point would there have been too many guns in that building?

 

BTW, have could you add some links to children who have died playing with guns they have found? People who have had their own guns taken and killed with them. Depressed people who have shot themselves. You have to take the good with the bad in stats. As I said, I don't see effective home security with a locked up gun that needs to be unlocked and loaded. Leaving a loaded, unlocked gun with one in the chamber around for that split second when you need to defend your family versus the chance that one of my kids might find it and use it had me deciding for me and my family, I'd be better off with a home security system.

 

 

No, I sure as hell don't. And if he makes a move at me, I fire. I will protect my own life (and the lives of my family) at all costs and above all others.

So you don't drop yours when he yells drop it. And if he is an good Samaritan thinking just like you, and shoots you first, will you later shake his hand and say, hell yes, exactly what I would have done? Or perhaps have your wife tell him that at your funeral.

[StrangeSox]

So you don't drop yours when he yells drop it. And if he is an good Samaritan thinking just like you, and shoots you first, will you later shake his hand and say, hell yes, exactly what I would have done? Or perhaps have your wife tell him that at your funeral.

 

That's life.

 

If I'm not armed and its the gunman, I'm dead anyway with no hope of defending myself.

[BigSqwert]

Quit going to such crazy extremes for situations you know never exist.

Situations that I know NEVER exist? Fires don't occur? People don't have heart attacks? They occur more often than gunman going postal.

[Texsox]

That's life.

 

If I'm not armed and its the gunman, I'm dead anyway with no hope of defending myself.

 

So as soon as you pull your gun as a good Samaritan, anyone, even one other good Samaritan, could shoot you and thems the breaks.

 

You may or not be dead. Not everyone in that building was killed or even shot. Do I like the scenario of someone seeing him pull his gun and immediately killing the gunman with only one loss of life? Of course. But I am very uneasy about six or seven people pulling weapons and starting to shoot. I know what training is involved in Texas' carry training and what police officers receive. I'll stand on the side of law enforcement on this one.

 

But of course law enforcement may be the evil tyranny we need to fight.

[BigSqwert]

That's life.

 

If I'm not armed and its the gunman, I'm dead anyway with no hope of defending myself.

If you're so worried about your safety at school buy a Kevlar vest. There are no laws against you wearing one.

[Texsox]

This is getting no where, so one post and I will probably shut up unless someone has a question.

 

The scenarios I see with more and more people carrying.

 

Guy robs a C-store waving a gun around. he's not planning to shoot anyone, (stats show there are more armed robberies that shootings). Cashier hands him the cash and off he goes. With more guns, he waves the gun and some good Samaritan pulls out a weapon and shoots, maybe they hit him, maybe not. The robber also starts to shoot, maybe he hits someone, maybe he doesn't.

 

You see someone stopping this guy at VT before he killed more, maybe their shot(s) hit the mark, maybe more bullets flying results in more people getting hit. I see good Samaritans shooting while diving for cover and from too long a range to be accurate. So I see the potential for more deaths and injuries as well as the potential for less.

 

I see more road rage turning ugly, not less, with more guns in people's hands.

 

I see more domestic violence with more guns, not less.

 

I see parents showing their kids by example that we should be afraid of everybody and violence is the answer.

 

Deer and doves should fear me, others should not. Paper and clay are endangered around me, people are not.

 

I believe the framers of the Constitution were smart enough to know they could not envision the world in 200 years and put in the ability to make changes. They also wisely made it very difficult.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think my main point is that there are different levels of gun control that are appropriate for different situations.

 

Simple example. Please, if you will...I would like for one person here to tell me that the city of Los Angeles allowing people to carry concealed weapons legally would make this city a safer place. Probably ditto New York.

 

There are some places where increasing the number of guns or putting them on the streets is just not going to do anything but get a lot more people killed. I think that most businesses and most universities are similar places...I just don't want the people walking past me on campus to be carrying unless they're wearing security shirts.

 

I don't know that it'll be safer in terms of the general crime statistics, but it certainly wouldn't make it worse. But making it safer isn't the point. It's not something that should be banned unless it's doing more harm than good. At this point all statistics point to it having a positive change or no change at all in the crime rate.

 

And it's not going to stop gang violence with guns. It's going to protect responsible individuals who would have to go through a long process of background checks, safety courses, etc. You're not going to just hand out guns to people and say 'here's a gun, run amok'

Edited April 17, 2007 by Jenksismybitch

[hitlesswonder]

Simple example. Please, if you will...I would like for one person here to tell me that the city of Los Angeles allowing people to carry concealed weapons legally would make this city a safer place. Probably ditto New York.

 

I think those cities would be safer with concealed carry laws. As someone has already said, studies have shown more guns results in less crime (see John Lott's book). If it works in Florida, I don't see why it wouldn't work in New York. It's not like concealed carry laws put guns in the hands of criminals -- they already have guns. Concealed carry laws arm potential victims and deter crime. Carry law advocates have numerous studies on their side. I have yet to see one study that shows that gun control laws reduce crime in the US.

[Rex Kickass]

Conceal Carry Permits were allowed in Virginia in 1995.

 

Total Violent Crime in Virginia: 23921 offenses in 1995, 21400 in 2005. Total decline 10.5%

 

Total Violent Crime in the US: 1798790 offenses in 1995, 1390695 in 2005. Total decline 22%

 

Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

[NorthSideSox72]

If you're so worried about your safety at school buy a Kevlar vest. There are no laws against you wearing one.

Actually, there are. You can't purchase one either, last I knew. Has that changed?

[mr_genius]

Conceal Carry Permits were allowed in Virginia in 1995.

 

Total Violent Crime in Virginia: 23921 offenses in 1995, 21400 in 2005. Total decline 10.5%

 

Total Violent Crime in the US: 1798790 offenses in 1995, 1390695 in 2005. Total decline 22%

 

impossible. there is no way violent crime has diminished during the evil Bush regime. you, sir, are a liar.

 

[Balta1701]

Actually, there are. You can't purchase one either, last I knew. Has that changed?

Bulletproofme.com

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(mreye @ Apr 17, 2007 -> 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The responsible person pulls out their gun, kills the shooter, calls 911 and walks out of the building.

 

Edit: I know it's not this simple. I'm just trying to give these kids a fighting chance, damnit. They didn't have that yesterday.

Oh give me a break. Why should students go to class expecting a gunman to come through? That's the only way they would have a"fighting chance." All it takes is for one bad breakup for a depressed, armed, kid who kills his ex and/or the new fling and/or his or herself.

 

If college students are going to go to class armed, high school kids are going to feel the need for the protection (which I imagine HS is a LOT more dangerous than College.)

 

I couldn't even imagine the number of deaths there would have been at my gang infested high school if the 18 year olds were allowed to bring their guns to school.

 

Why stop there? I believe the other even Soxy couldn't remember happened in Scotland where some idiot ran into a Kindergarten gym class and killed a teacher and some kids.

 

How about we just set up gun turrents in the hallway.

[BigSqwert]

Actually, there are. You can't purchase one either, last I knew. Has that changed?

Never mind.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Never mind.

 

Not so fast...

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Bulletproofme.com

Wow, that's new. Used to be the sales of ballistic vests was restricted to public safety personnel. Interesting.

[StrangeSox]

Wow, that's new. Used to be the sales of ballistic vests was restricted to public safety personnel. Interesting.

 

Could have been part of the AWB?

[Rex Kickass]

By the way...

 

the VA Tech shooter had obtained his gun legally.

[EvilMonkey]

Oh give me a break. Why should students go to class expecting a gunman to come through? That's the only way they would have a"fighting chance." All it takes is for one bad breakup for a depressed, armed, kid who kills his ex and/or the new fling and/or his or herself.

 

If college students are going to go to class armed, high school kids are going to feel the need for the protection (which I imagine HS is a LOT more dangerous than College.)

 

I couldn't even imagine the number of deaths there would have been at my gang infested high school if the 18 year olds were allowed to bring their guns to school.

 

Why stop there? I believe the other even Soxy couldn't remember happened in Scotland where some idiot ran into a Kindergarten gym class and killed a teacher and some kids.

 

How about we just set up gun turrents in the hallway.

Again, you assume that everyone in the class or school is packing heat. Even in the most gun crazy of states, that would not be true. While the gun laws vary from state to state, not everyone can get a gun, and not everyone who has a gun can get a concealed carry permit.

[Balta1701]

By the way...

 

the VA Tech shooter had obtained his gun(s) legally.

Fixed. Had 2 of them, one from a pawn shop, one from a gun shop.

[Texsox]

Again, you assume that everyone in the class or school is packing heat. Even in the most gun crazy of states, that would not be true. While the gun laws vary from state to state, not everyone can get a gun, and not everyone who has a gun can get a concealed carry permit.

 

So how many, would have been too many, in this instance?

[Balta1701]

A piece of data probably worth adding to this discussion...in 2005, according to the FBI, there were a total of 5 murders on college campuses nationwide.

[Texsox]

A piece of data probably worth adding to this discussion...in 2005, according to the FBI, there were a total of 5 murders on college campuses nationwide.

 

That seems low. Glad to hear it, with my son packing off to school in a few months.