Gun control debate

[StrangeSox]

Not sure what else to say, but I would just like to point out how interesting it is to compare owning a gun to addictive, illegal substances like drugs.

 

I was comparing illicit, high-profit black market trades, not the nature of each item.

 

So, you trust the government with enough atomic weapons to end civilization, you trust them with an army that could overrun any other army in the world, with equipment that could use conventional weapons to kill millions extremely rapidly, but you don't trust them to be the only ones with guns.

 

An unarmed people is a powerless people.

[Balta1701]

An unarmed people is a powerless people.

If the U.S. military were turned on the American people, they would be powerless in that sense. This would happen even if every single American were armed.

 

But...the American people are by no means powerless. They in fact have a power as great or greater than any other power out there...the ballot box.

[StrangeSox]

If the U.S. military were turned on the American people, they would be powerless in that sense. This would happen even if every single American were armed.

 

But...the American people are by no means powerless. They in fact have a power as great or greater than any other power out there...the ballot box.

 

 

If we have no means of recourse, they can take the ballot box away.

 

And, if the US military were to turn on its own people, you have to believe that there would be a lot of defectors.

 

The first step of just about every dictator is to disarm his populace.

Edited April 18, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

The first step of just about every dictator is to disarm his populace.

But...and this is the key point...just saying that dictators do it doens't mean it's a bad thing! If a dictator cuts taxes, does that mean we should raise taxes in reply?

 

Having an armed populace simply does nothing to protect the people from the government. The government is not coming to take you away (unless you vote Democratic).

[BigSqwert]

If we have no means of recourse, they can take the ballot box away.

 

And, if the US military were to turn on its own people, you have to believe that there would be a lot of defectors.

What paranoid vision of the world do you have? All of a sudden you think a civilized country will "turn on its people"? How so? By going around killing civilians? What chance would you really have against an army if you owned a handgun.

[southsider2k5]

If the U.S. military were turned on the American people, they would be powerless in that sense. This would happen even if every single American were armed.

 

But...the American people are by no means powerless. They in fact have a power as great or greater than any other power out there...the ballot box.

 

That last line is very true, and very apt here. If a significant portion of American's felt that the constitution needed to change, they would be forcing their congressmen to action. This has not happened in American yet in 230 years of exsistance, dispite all of the changes that have happened here.

[StrangeSox]

What paranoid vision of the world do you have? All of a sudden you think a civilized country will "turn on its people"? How so? By going around killing civilians? What chance would you really have against an army if you owned a handgun.

 

 

Balta said that a bunch of American citizens with semi-auto rifles couldn't stand up to the might of the US military. Try reading my quote of Balta in the post you quoted.

 

But...and this is the key point...just saying that dictators do it doens't mean it's a bad thing! If a dictator cuts taxes, does that mean we should raise taxes in reply?

 

True. I didn't really support my case very well there. And I have a logic and reasoning test in a few hours!

 

They disarm the populace so that the populace cannot have any recourse once the dictator starts taking their rights away.

 

Having an armed populace simply does nothing to protect the people from the government. The government is not coming to take you away (unless you vote Democratic).

 

No, they aren't. And there's no need for armed rebellion right now.

 

There also wasn't much need for armed rebellion in 1750. I'm glad they had the option though, and I'd like it if we kept it around, too.

[BigSqwert]

Balta said that a bunch of American citizens with semi-auto rifles couldn't stand up to the might of the US military.

He is absolutely correct.

[StrangeSox]

He is absolutely correct.

 

It seems you completely missed the point of my post that you originally quoted.

[BigSqwert]

It seems you completely missed the point of my post that you originally quoted.

Apparently I did. Please explain what you are getting at.

[StrangeSox]

Apparently I did. Please explain what you are getting at.

 

If the US government were to turn on its people, for whatever reason, it is my assertion that there would be a significant amount of defectors in the armed forces who would not participate and/ or actively try to stop such actions.

 

Besides, Iraqis don't seem to be having much problem standing up to the might of the US army. Yes, they're getting killed in large numbers, but our military is having a hell of a time.

[BigSqwert]

If the US government were to turn on its people, for whatever reason, it is my assertion that there would be a significant amount of defectors in the armed forces who would not participate and/ or actively try to stop such actions.

 

I guess I still don't see why this example would make me want to own a gun. In case there's some kind of post -apocalyptic revolution some day? Seems like a stretch.

 

Besides, Iraqis don't seem to be having much problem standing up to the might of the US army. Yes, they're getting killed in large numbers, but our military is having a hell of a time.

I guess your solution of more guns to more people doesn't seem like the logical progression for a civilized society.

[StrangeSox]

I guess your solution of more guns to more people doesn't seem like the logical progression for a civilized society.

 

If they had the power to overthrow Saddam, we wouldn't be there.

[southsider2k5]

What paranoid vision of the world do you have? All of a sudden you think a civilized country will "turn on its people"? How so? By going around killing civilians? What chance would you really have against an army if you owned a handgun.

 

Wait a sec, you kept eluding to shootouts and shooting sprees if people were allowed to carry concealed weapons (none of which has actually been proven by a real event) and he is paranoid? Yikes.

[BigSqwert]

If they had the power to overthrow Saddam, we wouldn't be there.

Angry gun yielding mobs is your solution? Working really well in Darfur and the Sudan.

 

Wait a sec, you kept eluding to shootouts and shooting sprees if people were allowed to carry concealed weapons (none of which has actually been proven by a real event) and he is paranoid? Yikes.

I am not paranoid. People who own guns seem to be. They keep looking for reasons to protect themselves because everyone is out to get them....crazed gunmen, the shady government, etc

[StrangeSox]

Angry gun yielding mobs is your solution? Working really well in Darfur and the Sudan.

 

I'll take armed revolution over passive repression any day of the week and twice on July 4th.

[southsider2k5]

Angry gun yielding mobs is your solution? Working really well in Darfur and the Sudan.

I am not paranoid. People who own guns seem to be. They keep looking for reasons to protect themselves because everyone is out to get them....crazed gunmen, the shady government, etc

 

As opposed to the non-exsistant gun toting mobs looking to get into shootouts at the drop of a hat at Chuck E Cheese's? OK.

[NorthSideSox72]

The discussion of an armed populace as a check against the government becomes silly-sounding when you get into the extremities of potential behavior. Its a check that is of great importance in this country, and yet, it will likely never come up in a direct sense.

[BigSqwert]

As opposed to the non-exsistant gun toting mobs looking to get into shootouts at the drop of a hat at Chuck E Cheese's? OK.

I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous and unnecessary it is for allowing concealed weapons. There is absolutely no need for them anywhere. Not even a college campus.

[southsider2k5]

I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous and unnecessary it is for allowing concealed weapons. There is absolutely no need for them anywhere. Not even a college campus.

 

I highly doubt that SS believes the government is going to start shooting all of its citizens tommorrow either...

[StrangeSox]

I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous and unnecessary it is for allowing concealed weapons. There is absolutely no need for them anywhere. Not even a college campus.

 

Except for when you're being attacked by an armed person and you have no way to defend yourself. Then its necessary.

 

We have concealed carry laws in plenty of places and none of your fantasy situations EVER happen. Yet, we have numerous cases of armed civilians stopping a situation before it gets much, much worse.

 

Look, I'm not arguing to make it any easier to obtain a gun. It should be harder. Getting a CCP should require extensive training and certification. But to argue that the only people who should have guns is the government is just absurd to me.

 

I highly doubt that SS believes the government is going to start shooting all of its citizens tommorrow either...

Well, Dick Cheney already shot someone in the face....

Edited April 18, 2007 by StrangeSox

[Balance]

So, you trust the government with enough atomic weapons to end civilization, (snip)

Please. It's "Nu-kyoo-lur."

 

Edited April 18, 2007 by Balance

[Rex Kickass]

As opposed to the non-exsistant gun toting mobs looking to get into shootouts at the drop of a hat at Chuck E Cheese's? OK.

 

That is why I never went to Chuck E Cheese. That mouse thing creeped me out.

[Middle Buffalo]

I see no reason for people to own machine guns and other military style firearms. The government should regulate the types of weapons that citizens can own.

 

My wife carries a gun for work. I've never fired it (wouldn't know how). I carry a leather glove in my back pocket. If someone gets on my nerves, I pull it out and slap them across the face with it. If I can find an appropriate case, I'm going to start carrying a ferret, as well.

[Rex Kickass]

All I can think of is the episode of Homer challenging everyone to a duel.