Gun control debate

[Balta1701]

That brings up an interesting quetion. If we had the same laws here, would this guy have even attempted this stunt in the first place?

Well, the other side of that same coin is Iraq. Everyone there seems to have an AK 47 or two, and that hasn't exactly served to make the place safer.

 

Or for a different comparison, take the U.S. and Britain. The U.S. has an awful lot more guns than Britain, but the U.S. also has a crime rate several times higher than Britain.

 

There are major societal factors that play into this. Some societies are hurt a lot more by things than others. If everyone was armed to the teeth, it's possible he might not have tried this, it's possible his death toll might have only been in the teens, etc. But on the other hand, it's also quite possible that having everyone armed to the teeth in this society, while it might have stopped this guy, could also lead to a lot more deaths by guns in other places.

[NorthSideSox72]

From another forum:

 

"The mentality I have seen most Law enforcement personnel display does not give me any confidence in their abilities. In addition, most law enforcement training is rather lacking. A firearms training facility in Nevada is running a 26 episode challenge between "trained" law enforcement personnel and "plain aficionados" that have gone through their training. The "plain aficionados" have won in the neighborhood of 80% of the competitions. Check out www.frontsight.com to learn about the facility."

 

Would people be more comfortable if getting a concealed carry permit required training at a facility such as this?

I read that site a bit, and let's be clear - he sets up people who are trained AS marksmen against cops who have regular but sporadic training in firearms to be proficient. Not really a good side-by-side study. If the cops went against regular recreational shooters, the number would be reversed, more than likely.

[NorthSideSox72]

I can't since I'm vegan.

In that case, I can certainly respect your views on killing animals. But I fail to see how hunting is any worse than commercial animal processing.

[Balta1701]

In that case, I can certainly respect your views on killing animals. But I fail to see how hunting is any worse than commercial animal processing.

Well, I'm neither...but I think that in terms of cleanliness, safety of the food, and carefulness of preparation, hunting your food is probably better for you than eating a burger from a cow raised on a factory farm next to who knows how many diseases and slaughtered in such a way where fragments of its brain stem wind up ground into meat.

[Texsox]

Well, I'm neither...but I think that in terms of cleanliness, safety of the food, and carefulness of preparation, hunting your food is probably better for you than eating a burger from a cow raised on a factory farm next to who knows how many diseases and slaughtered in such a way where fragments of its brain stem wind up ground into meat.

 

No matter what your view on hunting, I thnk it lessens the argument if you are anti-hunting and eating some ground cow from Brazil.

 

Balta, I wish all sportsmen are careful when processing game, I take mine, after field dressing, to a commercial processor so some of those same issues could be present.

[Queen Prawn]

The only hunting I am against is when people kill the animal just to kill it (i.e. don't eat the meat or use the skins in some form).

[Texsox]

The only hunting I am against is when people kill the animal just to kill it (i.e. don't eat the meat or use the skins in some form).

 

Hiw about using the skin/head for decoration? You know, a nice trophy for the wall?

[Queen Prawn]

That wigs me out something fierce.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Almost 200 posts debating gun control? How many times are we going to rehash this debate? Knee jerk, feel good legislation isin't going to stop the next massacre anymore than previous knee jerk, feel good legislation could stop this one.......or all the other homicides in this country for that matter.

[EvilMonkey]

Hiw about using the skin/head for decoration? You know, a nice trophy for the wall?

I have a 44" Grand Barricuda on my wall that I caught off the coast of Miami. Probably the only animal I killed that I didn't eat. Don't have a deer head or anything liek that, though. Big fish, sharp teeth. Stong enough to have pulled the boat I was in, which was also big.

[Texsox]

Almost 200 posts debating gun control? How many times are we going to rehash this debate? Knee jerk, feel good legislation isin't going to stop the next massacre anymore than previous knee jerk, feel good legislation could stop this one.......or all the other homicides in this country for that matter.

 

What will stop the next massacre?

 

And actually I believe some of the legislation that comes out of these situations is good and not knee jerk. Sometimes the unthinkable has to happen before we can plan and react. MADD and Amber alerts both were knee jerk reactions to a tragedy.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

What will stop the next massacre?

 

And actually I believe some of the legislation that comes out of these situations is good and not knee jerk. Sometimes the unthinkable has to happen before we can plan and react. MADD and Amber alerts both were knee jerk reactions to a tragedy.

 

 

 

 

Well for one thing this massacre could have been prevented had someone paid attention when that teacher raised a red flag that this guy was a little off his rocker.

[Texsox]

Well for one thing this massacre could have been prevented had someone paid attention when that teacher raised a red flag that this guy was a little off his rocker.

 

Within our current laws, what do you propose that we could have done with him? There are some people here who appear a little off their rocker (Soxy, is that the medical term) and are prone to outbursts. What should we do in those cases?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Within our current laws, what do you propose that we could have done with him? There are some people here who appear a little off their rocker (Soxy, is that the medical term) and are prone to outbursts. What should we do in those cases?

 

 

One thing I heard talked about would be reforming the 1968 guidelines that state that anyone who was involuntarily committed to a mental institution can't buy a gun. Tweaking it to say anyone who has been to one whether voluntary or not should not be able to get one. That's something I can support.

[Texsox]

One thing I heard talked about would be reforming the 1968 guidelines that state that anyone who was involuntarily committed to a mental institution can't buy a gun. Tweaking it to say anyone who has been to one whether voluntary or not should not be able to get one. That's something I can support.

 

With some mechanism to regain that right of proven competent. One issue is privacy and the medical records. I also wouldn't want people to not seek help if they thought it would hurt them later.

 

I'm not certain we really need any more laws, we just need a way to enforce the ones we have. If I understand the alws in Virginia, he should not have been able to purchase a gun. I think the easy access contributed to this. He may have been able to obtain one illegally, but I'm not certain of that.

[NorthSideSox72]

One thing I heard talked about would be reforming the 1968 guidelines that state that anyone who was involuntarily committed to a mental institution can't buy a gun. Tweaking it to say anyone who has been to one whether voluntary or not should not be able to get one. That's something I can support.

I agree. Normally I'm not for new gun control laws (Most of them are worthless), but adding people who are confirmed to be mentally unstable to those unable to purchase fireams is a good, reasonable idea.

[Gregory Pratt]

How's this for gun control: you control your gun, I control mine.

--Blue Governor Montana

[Dan]

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/mi...S00010000000001

[BearSox]

Guns are good, people are bad. They need stricter laws on who can buy/sell guns. And there is no better home safety weapon other then the shotgun.

[Dan]

Guns are good, people are bad. They need stricter laws on who can buy/sell guns. And there is no better home safety weapon other then the shotgun.

My thoughts exactly. Moderaters can lock this sucker up, BearSox for President in 08!

[Texsox]

Guns are good, people are bad. They need stricter laws on who can buy/sell guns. And there is no better home safety weapon other then the shotgun.

 

With kids around also? I decided when my youngest was tottling around that the risks of them finds one of my guns and having an accident was greater than a criminal breaking into my home. I don't think a shot gun is very good home protection unless it is unlocked and loaded and ready to go. Most stories I've heard has the intruder already in your home by the time you hear them.

[NorthSideSox72]

And there is no better home safety weapon other then the shotgun.

I'm as big a defender of gun rights as anyone here, but, that statement is ridiculous. You think a shotgun is better than a dead bolt? Or an alarm system? Or calling the police? Or any number of other smart security measures?

 

If you have kids around, you need to have your guns properly secured. And in that secured state, they aren't terribly useful for home defense. I think you should be free to have them, but the chances of you ever getting anything positive out of it are very, very slim. Just to keep things in perspective.

[StrangeSox]

I'm as big a defender of gun rights as anyone here, but, that statement is ridiculous. You think a shotgun is better than a dead bolt? Or an alarm system? Or calling the police? Or any number of other smart security measures?

 

Crowbar > dead bolt

 

Police and alarm systems take time to respond. Time you may not have. Besides, it has been tested in court and affirmed numerous times that the police force's duty is to protect the community, not the individuals.

 

http://www.totse.com/en/law/justice_for_all/policeno.html

 

If you have kids around, you need to have your guns properly secured. And in that secured state, they aren't terribly useful for home defense. I think you should be free to have them, but the chances of you ever getting anything positive out of it are very, very slim. Just to keep things in perspective.

 

Keep your gun locked up and next to your bed. You hear someone breaking in, quietly and quickly unlock the safe. Its not like the intruder is going to charge into the bedroom first. They're probably going to root around the living room and other areas for electronics and other valuables and avoid people. A lock isn't that complicated to open, its not like putting in nuclear launch codes.

[BigSqwert]

Keep your gun locked up and next to your bed. You hear someone breaking in, quietly and quickly unlock the safe. Its not like the intruder is going to charge into the bedroom first. They're probably going to root around the living room and other areas for electronics and other valuables and avoid people. A lock isn't that complicated to open, its not like putting in nuclear launch codes.

Where would you keep the key to the lock? If it's close to the locked gun doesn't that defeat the purpose of having it locked away since it might be easy for kids to get into it?

 

I sleep peacefully each night knowing that the doors are dead-bolted and the alarm is activated. The alarm will sound immediately when either entrance is opened (and it is very loud) and the alarm company is immediately notified. If for some reason an intruder were to open the door and the alarm went off I highly doubt they would run into the house trying to kill people in the house. More likely they would run away since the neighbors downstairs would also hear the alarm (we live in a 3 flat) and the police would be on their way. In this scenario there is no risk of someone getting killed on accident (i.e., someone coming home and forgetting to deactivate the alarm or a kid finding the gun and accidentally killing themselves). Works for me and doesn't involve violence.

 

EDIT: Would be interesting to see if there are stats out there that show the percentage of homes with fully functioning alarm systems that have had inhabitants murdered by a burglar or crazed gunman. I can't imagine it's high.

Edited April 23, 2007 by BigSqwert

[StrangeSox]

Where would you keep the key to the lock? If it's close to the locked gun doesn't that defeat the purpose of having it locked away since it might be easy for kids to get into it?

 

Gun safes have combination locks.

 

I sleep peacefully each night knowing that the doors are dead-bolted and the alarm is activated. The alarm will sound immediately when either entrance is opened (and it is very loud) and the alarm company is immediately notified. If for some reason an intruder were to open the door and the alarm went off I highly doubt they would run into the house trying to kill people in the house. More likely they would run away since the neighbors downstairs would also hear the alarm (we live in a 3 flat) and the police would be on their way. In this scenario there is no risk of someone getting killed on accident (i.e., someone coming home and forgetting to deactivate the alarm or a kid finding the gun and accidentally killing themselves). Works for me and doesn't involve violence.

 

It is established fact that the police do not have responsibility to protect individual citizens or their property. I posted one case and have read dozens of others that reaffirm this.

 

Don't get me wrong, an alarm system to scare off intruders is a great idea.

 

EDIT: Would be interesting to see if there are stats out there that show the percentage of homes with fully functioning alarm systems that have had inhabitants murdered by a burglar or crazed gunman. I can't imagine it's high.

 

It isn't just about murder. If you can stop the petty burglar and hold him until police arrive, you've removed another scumbag from the streets. The next home they hit up might not have an alarm and they'll rob the place blind.

Edited April 23, 2007 by StrangeSox