cho seung-hui exposed

[hi8is]

a little more light shines on virgina tech. killer, cho seung-hui.

 

cho seung-hui addressed his manifesto to NBC as "ishmael" which translates to "god will listen" and "a child who fulfills a divine promise."

 

to me it seems like he chose to make himself a martyr. i think he did what he did and killed himself trying to create widespread public attention... to what? to our social state... to what he "rants" about in the portion of manifesto on NBC.... i think he is pointing out that we are greedy, spiteful, careless, materialistic, judgmental, hypocritical and void of compassion for our fellows.

 

im not agreeing with his message AT ALL.

 

merely trying to understand why he did what he did.

 

seems to me that he was trying to direct attention on a mass scale to our societies relationships with one another. a twisted cry for more compassion, for more unity, for more importance placed upon one another and directed away from the material aspects of life.

 

In 2003 he graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Virginia. He was obviously smart. it seems to me that he wanted to convey a message here.... kind of like a play write does.... you create a story and hope through it your main point get transmitted. seems almost like he planned this thing as if writing a play and made it a reality.

 

what is his main point?

 

seems this cho seung-hui guy thought he could do something to direct attention to others defects in character.... and make the ultimate plea for us to change our ways.

id be really interested in seeing everything in that manifesto.

 

i find it really hard to believe that someone would do something so methodically without some sort of perceived purpose. not one of the people has been personally tied to him...

 

so, ask yourself what is his motive?

 

the news is trying to pin this on the usual suspects... music.... according to one of his roommate cho seung-hui was obsessed with one song which he would repeatedly play, collective soul's "shine". here are the lyrics:

Give me a word

Give me a sign

Show me where to look

Tell what will I find ( will I find )

Lay me on the ground

Fly me in the sky

Show me where to look

Tell me what will I find ( will I find )

 

Oh, heaven let your light shine down (x4)

 

Love is in the water

Love is in the air

Show me where to go

Tell me will love be there ( love be there )

Teach me how to speak

Teach me how to share

Teach me where to go

Tell me will love be there ( love be there )

 

Oh, heaven let your light shine down (x4)

 

Im going to let it shine (x2)

Heavens little light gonna shine on me

Yea yea heavens little light gonna shine on me

Its gonna shine, shine on me

Its gonna shine, come on in shine

 

ok, i guess we cant blame this on music. what else is to blame.... video games? his old roommate when interviewed said, "he never played video games, he just stayed on his computer writing all the time."

 

ok, i guess we cant blame video games, how about his parents? all that is known about them is they care enough about their kid to send him to a honors high school and a major university. a post carrier said of them, "they where always very kind people."

 

he compares himself to jesus christ saying this in a sense was his crucification... he also is said to have had a mental history with borderline schizophrenic behaviors. one documented case speaks of him having conversations with an imaginary girlfriend. one common thread with schizophrenics is a feeling of a divine purpose imposed upon them from god.

 

i also find it funny that he used to sign his name with a "?"..... the most common question....

 

why?

[Texsox]

You can follow someone down a path and never see what they see, never feel what they feel. We may come to know him, but I doubt we can ever understand beyond some Latin labels.

[DrunkBomber]

Its kind of scary to see how planned out all of this was. It makes you wonder who, if anyone will be next. Some people have so much rage and when they direct it this way it gets way out of control.

[Kid Gleason]

As soon as we realized that what he did was to gain attention and to get people talking about things, that is eaxctly when the media and everybody needed to shut-up about him and turn it's full attention onto the victims. His goal is now achieved and he was a massive success. Coverage on him needs to stop.

[sircaffey]

As soon as we realized that what he did was to gain attention and to get people talking about things, that is eaxctly when the media and everybody needed to shut-up about him and turn it's full attention onto the victims. His goal is now achieved and he was a massive success. Coverage on him needs to stop.

 

Exactly. The guy's human trash. There is no reason anyone should give any thought to what he has to say. Certainly not attempt to understand his "message." He doesnt deserve our time.

[southsider2k5]

Exactly. The guy's human trash. There is no reason anyone should give any thought to what he has to say. Certainly not attempt to understand his "message." He doesnt deserve our time.

 

I don't think it is about trying to understand his message as much as understanding him, so that we can try to stop this from happening in the future.

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't see what the point is of figuring out what started this. It's obvious the kid was nuts - he was pyschopath who snapped. Why does there need to be a reason, be it music, video games, movies, or our culture?

 

We diagnose crazies and argue that it's not their fault because some wires in their brain connected the wrong way or they suffer from some sort of chemical imbalance. But when it comes to crazy people acting out there always has to be some outside influence that caused it, especially when dealing with younger people.

 

The kid missed the boat on normal development. It obviously wasn't a result of his environment as his sister grew up to be a Princeton grad with an Economics degree (who is now working for the State Dept on rebuilding Iraq). He should have been put into an asylum a long time ago. He should never have been allowed to attend a public university (or more importantly, STAY at a public university after being labeled a harm to himself) and he definitely should not have been given the opportunity to purchase a gun. The ONE gun related law I'd like to see change would be a background check on any mental health issue. Crazy people should not have guns.

[sircaffey]

No knock on you hi8i's but I read about 2 sentences of your post. I refuse to give this guy my time which is exactly what he wants.

 

I don't think it is about trying to understand his message as much as understanding him, so that we can try to stop this from happening in the future.

 

We can try to explain what was mentally wrong with him, but when you start asking questions like what really was his message, we've gone too far.

 

We'll never be able to stop insanity.

[CanOfCorn]

Why does there need to be a reason, be it music, video games, movies, or our culture?

 

Because when tragedy occurs, people need a reason. There HAS to be a "why?" I don't know if you've ever personally been through something horribly negative (I hope not) but I have and that was the very first thing I said, "Why?"

 

If it weren't for that, we wouldn't have religion. We wouldn't have science. Trying to find a reason, whether in tragedy or in regular everyday life is what makes us "higher" life forms.

[Kid Gleason]

I can tell ya "why".

 

Because he was an asshole.

[Damen]

I don't see what the point is of figuring out what started this. It's obvious the kid was nuts - he was pyschopath who snapped. Why does there need to be a reason, be it music, video games, movies, or our culture?

 

We diagnose crazies and argue that it's not their fault because some wires in their brain connected the wrong way or they suffer from some sort of chemical imbalance. But when it comes to crazy people acting out there always has to be some outside influence that caused it, especially when dealing with younger people.

 

The kid missed the boat on normal development. It obviously wasn't a result of his environment as his sister grew up to be a Princeton grad with an Economics degree (who is now working for the State Dept on rebuilding Iraq). He should have been put into an asylum a long time ago. He should never have been allowed to attend a public university (or more importantly, STAY at a public university after being labeled a harm to himself) and he definitely should not have been given the opportunity to purchase a gun. The ONE gun related law I'd like to see change would be a background check on any mental health issue. Crazy people should not have guns.

 

 

Word.

[southsider2k5]

I don't see what the point is of figuring out what started this. It's obvious the kid was nuts - he was pyschopath who snapped. Why does there need to be a reason, be it music, video games, movies, or our culture?

 

We diagnose crazies and argue that it's not their fault because some wires in their brain connected the wrong way or they suffer from some sort of chemical imbalance. But when it comes to crazy people acting out there always has to be some outside influence that caused it, especially when dealing with younger people.

 

The kid missed the boat on normal development. It obviously wasn't a result of his environment as his sister grew up to be a Princeton grad with an Economics degree (who is now working for the State Dept on rebuilding Iraq). He should have been put into an asylum a long time ago. He should never have been allowed to attend a public university (or more importantly, STAY at a public university after being labeled a harm to himself) and he definitely should not have been given the opportunity to purchase a gun. The ONE gun related law I'd like to see change would be a background check on any mental health issue. Crazy people should not have guns.

 

Its really easy to say that, its much harder to actually put that into practice. To be honest this pretty much would have just taken the consititution and wiped your ass with it. First of all the spectrum of "any mental health issue" is so huge, there would be no consititutional way of deciding who is fit or not to own a gun. Second would be the fact that it would be difficult to keep a persons medical records private in the scenario you are painting. I guarentee you that statistically you know people who would be labeled as having "mental health issues" who function just fine in everyday society, and you have no clue about. Also realize that anyone who has a mental health issue, doesn't make them crazy.

[Queen Prawn]

Very true, Mike.

[Jenksismyhero]

Its really easy to say that, its much harder to actually put that into practice. To be honest this pretty much would have just taken the consititution and wiped your ass with it. First of all the spectrum of "any mental health issue" is so huge, there would be no consititutional way of deciding who is fit or not to own a gun. Second would be the fact that it would be difficult to keep a persons medical records private in the scenario you are painting. I guarentee you that statistically you know people who would be labeled as having "mental health issues" who function just fine in everyday society, and you have no clue about. Also realize that anyone who has a mental health issue, doesn't make them crazy.

 

Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it can't be done. What is pornography? What is discrimination? Difficult questions yet we still have legislation covering those hard-to-define issues.

 

Here's an easy one: If you've ever been deemed by a magistrate or judge to be a harm to yourself, you have mental issues sufficient to warrant never, ever getting a gun.

 

I think you're right that mental issues should be distinct from insanity. But severe mental issues, while a touchy subject, should be no different than criminal records. If gun shops can access those, they should be able to access your mental medical records. They wouldn't be running around asking for records to see who might have an STD or AIDS or something else that can be humiliating and life-altering if it became public knowledge. Administratvely it could be as easy as the gun shop sending a form into some state office where they simply reply 'yes' or 'no' to whether they should get a gun. No questions asked, no information provided, lives possibly saved.

[Soxy]

Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it can't be done. What is pornography? What is discrimination? Difficult questions yet we still have legislation covering those hard-to-define issues.

 

Here's an easy one: If you've ever been deemed by a magistrate or judge to be a harm to yourself, you have mental issues sufficient to warrant never, ever getting a gun.

 

I think you're right that mental issues should be distinct from insanity. But severe mental issues, while a touchy subject, should be no different than criminal records. If gun shops can access those, they should be able to access your mental medical records. They wouldn't be running around asking for records to see who might have an STD or AIDS or something else that can be humiliating and life-altering if it became public knowledge. Administratvely it could be as easy as the gun shop sending a form into some state office where they simply reply 'yes' or 'no' to whether they should get a gun. No questions asked, no information provided, lives possibly saved.

How would you define "severe mental issues"? Being suicidal as a teenager? Having at least one psychotic break? Having parents with significant mental issues (as some of these traits seem highly heritable)? Having sought therapy? Having been referred to therapy?

 

Do you think there is a difference between people who have had issues with depression and suicide as teenagers and those who struggled with it as an adult? Or do you think there is a difference between someone who is suicidal and someone who is homicidal?

 

And, I think this is key here: what percentage of people that commit these sort of mass atrocities actually have a paper trail of mental illness behind them? I am willing to bet it's very few. And I really disagree with you that having a mental illness is on par with committing a crime.

[Balta1701]

Administratvely it could be as easy as the gun shop sending a form into some state office where they simply reply 'yes' or 'no' to whether they should get a gun. No questions asked, no information provided, lives possibly saved.

I believe the national waiting period for purchasing guns got struck down, so it couldn't be a form going into a state office because there's no legal way to delay the purchase. It would have to be something added to the insta-check system, so there's no real way any actual judgement could be applied on the spot if a person comes in to buy one.

 

And, I think this is key here: what percentage of people that commit these sort of mass atrocities actually have a paper trail of mental illness behind them? I am willing to bet it's very few. And I really disagree with you that having a mental illness is on par with committing a crime.

I think this piece from a few years ago looking at the psychological profiles of the Columbine shooters adds something to this discussion.

[Soxy]

I believe the national waiting period for purchasing guns got struck down, so it couldn't be a form going into a state office because there's no legal way to delay the purchase. It would have to be something added to the insta-check system, so there's no real way any actual judgement could be applied on the spot if a person comes in to buy one.

I think this piece from a few years ago looking at the psychological profiles of the Columbine shooters adds something to this discussion.

But weren't a lot of those diagnoses post-hoc? Like after they died? I don't doubt that a lot of people that do this HAVE mental illness--but I doubt a lot of them have actually been diagnosed. So, for something taking mental illness into account before selling guns you would almost have to do psychological testing--and I really don't see that happening. . .

[Jenksismyhero]

How would you define "severe mental issues"? Being suicidal as a teenager? Having at least one psychotic break? Having parents with significant mental issues (as some of these traits seem highly heritable)? Having sought therapy? Having been referred to therapy?

 

Do you think there is a difference between people who have had issues with depression and suicide as teenagers and those who struggled with it as an adult? Or do you think there is a difference between someone who is suicidal and someone who is homicidal?

 

And, I think this is key here: what percentage of people that commit these sort of mass atrocities actually have a paper trail of mental illness behind them? I am willing to bet it's very few. And I really disagree with you that having a mental illness is on par with committing a crime.

 

I'm not saying it would be easy, but a starting point would be anyone who's been deemed a harm to themselves. I think once you get into the issue you can see a difference between someone who needs a little help versus someone who needs a lot of help dealing with their issues. Another one might be if you have to take X amount of Y medicine versus simply talking it out with someone. Again though, just because it's difficult doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

And i'm not sure about the timing. We'd have to find a study that determined how many people get over their suicidal tendencies as teenagers versus those people that deal with it throughout their lives. My guess is that if its in the early teens you probably can get over it. Getting into the later teens/college years it's probably going to stick with you. But that's just a guess.

 

As to comparing mental illness to committing a crime, I'm just saying the level of private information should be the same, not the severity. If you're a threat to society, you're a threat to society. It doesn't matter that in one instance your brain works fine but your judgement doesn't, or if you're brain doesn't work as it should and your judgement doesn't either. In both instances that information is key and could become imporant. It shouldn't be kept private for fear of what, embarassment?

[Jenksismyhero]

I think this piece from a few years ago looking at the psychological profiles of the Columbine shooters adds something to this discussion.

 

Harris, they believe, was irretrievable. He was a brilliant killer without a conscience, searching for the most diabolical scheme imaginable. If he had lived to adulthood and developed his murderous skills for many more years, there is no telling what he could have done. His death at Columbine may have stopped him from doing something even worse.

 

Yikes.

[Soxy]

Yikes.

Eh, that's basically just the definition of a sociopath.

 

And I agree, I think there is some level of disclosure that may be necessary. For example, just like a sex offender I would like to know if someone with Anti-social personality disorder moved in next door. But the NIHM (National Institute of Mental Health) estimates that slightly over 1 in 4 Americans have some form of mental illness. I don't think that all of those people should have a record like that hanging over their heads. Is keeping public records of people's depression or anxiety diagnoses really going to help? I imagine that would really only exacerbate those problems, and I don't think it would be just embarrassing--I think it could be really professionally damaging too. So, if you want to keep track of people that have a history of anti-social behavior I would agree. But if you think someone with Seasonal Affective Disorder, Dysthymic disorder, OCD, or anorexia shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun, I'm afraid I would disagree.

[Balta1701]

Eh, that's basically just the definition of a sociopath.

 

And I agree, I think there is some level of disclosure that may be necessary. For example, just like a sex offender I would like to know if someone with Anti-social personality disorder moved in next door. But the NIHM (National Institute of Mental Health) estimates that slightly over 1 in 4 Americans have some form of mental illness. I don't think that all of those people should have a record like that hanging over their heads. Is keeping public records of people's depression or anxiety diagnoses really going to help? I imagine that would really only exacerbate those problems, and I don't think it would be just embarrassing--I think it could be really professionally damaging too. So, if you want to keep track of people that have a history of anti-social behavior I would agree. But if you think someone with Seasonal Affective Disorder, Dysthymic disorder, OCD, or anorexia shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun, I'm afraid I would disagree.

Then thinking beyond that, who all gets access to this database and what happens when they do so? If we're cataloging a database of varieties of mental illness...that sure seems like something people other than just gun shop owners might like to get their hands on. I can fully imagine employers and health insurance companies would go head over heels to try to get access to that sort of data, because it could help them avoid expenses either for their employees or to cover insurance bills if they could remove the 25% or so of people with some sort of issue.

[Soxy]

Then thinking beyond that, who all gets access to this database and what happens when they do so? If we're cataloging a database of varieties of mental illness...that sure seems like something people other than just gun shop owners might like to get their hands on. I can fully imagine employers and health insurance companies would go head over heels to try to get access to that sort of data, because it could help them avoid expenses either for their employees or to cover insurance bills if they could remove the 25% or so of people with some sort of issue.

And that's the big reason I am against that kind of profiling. It would really make things worse. People with mental illness couldn't get jobs, would lose health care, their disability would go untreated. Imagine that trainwreck.

[Jenksismyhero]

And that's the big reason I am against that kind of profiling. It would really make things worse. People with mental illness couldn't get jobs, would lose health care, their disability would go untreated. Imagine that trainwreck.

 

All these arguments can be used to say that criminal records should be kept private, but they aren't.

 

Of course the retort is well, you don't have a choice with mental illness and you do with committing a crime. Which brings me back to my original post on this thread which is - why are we looking for a reason that people like this act they way they do. It's all about how their brain is wired, not about their environment.

 

Coincidentally, it didn't take long for there to be a 'look it's violent movies that did it' story:

 

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261563,00.html

[hi8is]

it is natural to ask why in order to understand and accept things.

 

we formulate reality to an acceptable dose and move on.

 

thats what im doing.

 

i dont choose to see this guy actions just as something pointless. i choose to look into it and find a point.

 

so... what im taking away from this is tragic event reinforces values i have and try to practice.

 

have and express compassion for all forms of life without judgment. place more value on human expression than material "things". share warmly, openly, and kindly. religious tolerance and the freedom to express religious ideals are doctrines that need to be fully embraced not merely rarely practiced ideas.

 

wouldn't it be good if that kind of message was plastered all over ophra, cnn, nbc, abc, etc. etc. its the message i choose to take from it.

 

there are better ways to direct our consciousness toward these truths and that needs to be illustrated as well.

Edited April 19, 2007 by hi8is

[Soxy]

All these arguments can be used to say that criminal records should be kept private, but they aren't.

 

Of course the retort is well, you don't have a choice with mental illness and you do with committing a crime. Which brings me back to my original post on this thread which is - why are we looking for a reason that people like this act they way they do. It's all about how their brain is wired, not about their environment.

 

Coincidentally, it didn't take long for there to be a 'look it's violent movies that did it' story:

 

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261563,00.html

Um, there may be a genetic basis for mental illness but it's not 100% heritable. I don't think you can tease apart the influence of nature versus nurture of mental illness. And again, what mental illnesses do you think should be made public or put into a database? Schizophrenia? Depression? Agoraphobia? Anorexia? Anxiety Disorders?

 

Although, I do think that a lot of scientific research would agree that there is a component of violent behavior that may very well be linked to violence in the media (Skinner, Dollard, Miller, Mischel, Bandura, etc).