GOP Primaries/Candidates thread

[Texsox]

You realize that at this point in time in our country, you cannot just build 12 million or MORE people into our social welfare program, right?

 

Right. We need 12,000,000 people to work those jobs that won't qualify for benefits

[kapkomet]

Ok, let's go through this.

 

McCain Kennedy

 

Title I: Border Security

 

* Requires the development of various plans and reports evaluating information-sharing, international and federal-state-local coordination, technology, anti-smuggling, and other border security initiatives

* Establishes a Border Security Advisory Committee made up of various stakeholders in the border region to provide recommendations to the Department of Homeland Security regarding border enforcement

* Encourages the development of multilateral partnerships to establish a North American security perimeter and improve border security south of Mexico

 

This is your classic paper tiger. When? How?

 

Title II: State Criminal Alien Assistance

 

* Reauthorizes the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program that provides reimbursement to state and local governments for incarcerating undocumented aliens convicted of crimes

* Allows for funding to pay for additional criminal justice costs associated with undocumented immigrants charged or convicted of crimes

 

Oh boy, how nice. So we STILL end up paying for these assbags who come over here and committ crimes. Where's the incentive to deport these peckerheads?

 

 

Title III: Essential Worker Visa Program

 

* Creates a new temporary visa to allow foreign workers to enter and fill available jobs that require few or no skills (the H-5A visa)

* Applicants must show that they have a job waiting in the U.S., pay a fee of $500 in addition to application fees, and clear all security, medical, and other checks

* Requires updating of America's Job Bank to make sure job opportunities are seen first by American workers

* Initial cap on H-5A visas is set at 400,000, but the annual limit will be gradually adjusted up or down based on demand in subsequent years

* Visa is valid for three years, and can be renewed one time for a total of 6 years; at the end of the visa period the worker either has to return home or be in the pipeline for a green card

* Visa is portable, but if the worker loses his job he has to find another one within 60 days or return home

* Ensures that employers hiring temporary workers abide by Federal, state and local labor, employment and tax laws

* Prohibits the hiring of temporary workers as independent contractors

* Protects temporary workers from abuse by foreign labor contractors or employers.

* Gives temporary workers and U.S. workers remedies for violations of their rights

* An employer can sponsor the H-5A visa holder for a green card, or after accumulating four years of work in H-5A status, the worker can apply to adjust status on his/her own

* Sets up a task force to evaluate the H-5A program and recommend improvements

 

Ok, this is fine. But what about the people who are here NOW illegally? What happens? OH, YEA, that AMNESTY word comes in. N-O, thank you.

 

Title IV: Enforcement

 

* Creates a new electronic work authorization system that will ultimately replace the paper-based, fraud-prone I-9 system, to be phased in gradually

* When operational, the system will be applied universally and cannot be used to discriminate against job applicants

* Individuals will have the right to review and correct their own records; data privacy protections are in place

* Immigration-related documents and US-VISIT will be upgraded to require biometric verification of travelers

* The Department of Labor will have new authority to conduct random audits of employers and ensure compliance with labor laws; also includes new worker protections and enhanced fines for illegal employment practices

 

Big deal. I-9 goes computers. So what?

 

TITLE V: Promoting Circular Migration Patterns

 

* Requires foreign countries to enter into migration agreements with the U.S. that help control the flow of their citizens to jobs in the U.S., with emphasis on encouraging the re-integration of citizens returning home

* Encourages the U.S. government to partner with Mexico to promote economic opportunity back home and reduce the pressure to immigrate to the U.S.

* Encourages the U.S. government to partner with Mexico on health care access so that the U.S. is not unfairly impacted with the costs of administering health care to Mexican nationals

 

Read: US government pays for Mexico to do what they should be anyway. f*** that.

 

Title VI: Family Unity and Backlog Reduction

 

* Immediate relatives of U.S. citizens are not counted against the 480,000 annual cap on family-sponsored green cards, thereby providing additional visas to the family preference categories

* The current per-country limit on green cards is raised slightly to clear up backlogs

* Income requirements for sponsoring a family member for a green card are changed from 125% of the federal poverty guidelines to 100%, and other obstacles are removed to ensure fairness

* The employment-based categories are revised to provide additional visas for employers who need to hire permanent workers, and the annual cap is raised from 140,000 to 290,000

* Immigrant visas lost due to processing delays are recaptured for future allotments

 

Oh, so if I have a relative, I can have them join me. HEY, at least they're LEGAL this way.

 

Title VII: Adjustment of Status for H-5B Non-Immigrants

 

* Undocumented immigrants in the U.S. on date of introduction can register for a temporary visa (H-5B), valid for six years

* Applicants have to show work history, clean criminal record, and that they are not a security problem to be eligible for a temporary visa

* They will receive work and travel authorization

* Their spouses and children are also eligible

* In order to qualify for permanent status, workers will have to meet a future work requirement, clear additional security/background checks, pay substantial fines and application fees ($2000 or more per adult) as well as back taxes, and meet English/civics requirements

 

A-M-N-E-S-T-Y. Period. There isn't a way around this interpretation. That's where I'll stop. This is ludicrious.

 

Title VIII: Protection Against Immigration Fraud

 

* Attempts to eliminate the exploitation of immigrants by notarios or other unlicensed immigration law practitioners by imposing new legal requirements on such individuals

* Allows immigrants defrauded by unauthorized legal representatives to file actions against their perpetrators

 

Title IX: Civics Integration

 

* Creates a public-private foundation under the USCIS Office of Citizenship to support programs that promote citizenship and to fund civics and English language instruction for immigrants

* Provides for new money to fund civic and English language instruction for immigrants

 

Title X: Promoting Access to Health Care

* Extends the authorization of federal reimbursements for hospitals that provide emergency care to undocumented immigrants; includes H-5A and H-5B workers in the program

 

Title XI: Miscellaneous

 

* Distributes the fees and fines paid by H-5A and H-5B workers among the DHS and DOS for processing, DHS for border security efforts, DOL for enforcement of labor laws, SSA for development of the employment eligibility confirmation system, hospitals to pay for uncompensated health care, and the USCIS Office of Citizenship for civic integration and English classes

* Requires the dissemination of information related to the provisions of this legislation

* Includes anti-discrimination protections that cover all workers, including H-5A and H-5B visa holders

And what the hell do you want to do? that doesn't look like this Uber Amnesty program you keep screaming about. Like I want 12 million illegals mooching off the US entitlement programs, I don't even want US citizens doing it. Make some cuts those programs.

 

[Balta1701]

Right. We need 12,000,000 people to work those jobs that won't qualify for benefits

Tex...get reproducin'.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Obama has the ability to inspire this nation like JFK and RWR did. And that may just be what we need right now. However, I am afraid the man may be more of a paper tiger than anything.

 

I LOVE ORIGAMI!!!

[Texsox]

You realize that at this point in time in our country, you cannot just build 12 million or MORE people into our social welfare program, right?

 

BTW, this is why the government has looked the other way for decades. As long as we had people to work those low income jobs off the books, it did not cost us as much. Low paid workers, no matter who it is, receive more benefits then they contribute. Student financial aid, police and fire, highways, food, clothing, and shelter, health care.

 

But Kap, we can't keep using illegals, so those jobs will have to go on the books. Like it or not.

[kapkomet]

 

BTW, this is why the government has looked the other way for decades. As long as we had people to work those low income jobs off the books, it did not cost us as much. Low paid workers, no matter who it is, receive more benefits then they contribute. Student financial aid, police and fire, highways, food, clothing, and shelter, health care.

 

But Kap, we can't keep using illegals, so those jobs will have to go on the books. Like it or not.

As I said, send them all home, and make them apply for a guest worker program LEGALLY. Then, I don't have a problem with it.

[Texsox]

As I said, send them all home, and make them apply for a guest worker program LEGALLY. Then, I don't have a problem with it.

 

And create the program with less than full benefits. I think it would be incredibly wasteful to send good workers home just to turn around and hire more. That seems like a crippler to our economy. Keep the ones that have p[roven to be good neighbors and deport the rest. And cut taxes 50% so we can afford to do all this.

[mr_genius]

This is your classic paper tiger. When? How?

 

How? Increased border survalience, even a wall if that is shown to help. Stop employers from hiring

illegals. If they can't get financial compensation for being here, they won't come here. Have a 'as tamper proof as humanly possible' ID for guest workers. Have a system that is easy for employers to check employees work

status. When? now.

 

Oh boy, how nice. So we STILL end up paying for these assbags who come over here and committ crimes.

Where's the incentive to deport these peckerheads?

 

This will give the authorities the resources to apprehend illegals and send them back.

It removes the sanctuary cities excuse of "well, we just can't afford to send illegals who commit crimes back to wherever they are from". What

else shoudld we do? Hire cops who work for free to arrest them?

 

Big deal. I-9 goes computers. So what?

 

 

Actually, it is a big deal. It's a lot easier to catch employers running illegal operations

when you have a database to check these guys with rahter than paperwork. You can cross reference someone

to make sure a SS ID isn't being used in 5 locations across the country at the same time. Easier

to track fraud.

 

Read: US government pays for Mexico to do what they should be anyway. f*** that.

 

they won't do anything on their own. isn't it the "true conservative" way to bribe foreign

governments anyways?

 

O-M-N-E-S-T-Y. Period. There isn't a way around this interpretation.

That's where I'll stop. This is ludicrious..

 

haha ok. So what, someone pays a big fine, has to PROVE they have a job, and they must pay taxes, they

CANNOT have any type of arrest record, must learn english, then they are illegible for a visa.

 

As opposed to what plan? What other plan you going to get through congress? This plan is more harsh than Reagan's amnesty immigration plan. I guess there is always the " expect the perfect plan with no compromise and then get nothing strategy." Things will only get worse and worse over time.

Edited February 6, 2008 by mr_genius

[Rex Kickass]

Kap,

 

Where do you get Obama=Socialist?

[kapkomet]

Because he is. So is the entire Democratic Party. Now, let me be clear. It's not "socialist" like "communist", but it certainly is socialist when you:

 

want government health care

continue to grow government control on damn near everything that breathes

let's expand government entitilements on everything we can

 

(sense a theme yet?)

 

Again, why does the government have to take care of us? It should be us taking care of ourselves. Oh wait, I forgot, no one wants personal responsibility anymore, that's Uncle Sam's job.

[southsideirish71]

Because he is. So is the entire Democratic Party. Now, let me be clear. It's not "socialist" like "communist", but it certainly is socialist when you:

 

want government health care

continue to grow government control on damn near everything that breathes

let's expand government entitilements on everything we can

 

(sense a theme yet?)

 

Again, why does the government have to take care of us? It should be us taking care of ourselves. Oh wait, I forgot, no one wants personal responsibility anymore, that's Uncle Sam's job.

 

And there is that whole democratic thing of redistributing wealth by taxing the living crap out of people who they deem rich and redistributing that to the lower class. Thats a bit socialist don't you think.

 

[Balta1701]

And there is that whole democratic thing of redistributing wealth by taxing the living crap out of people who they deem rich and redistributing that to the lower class. Thats a bit socialist don't you think.

The problem is that there's no real definition out there for what exactly is "Socialist". One of the Ron Paul supporters might call you socialist for, I dunno, believing that we should have a publically funded military or something like that. Even the Wikipedia entry can't seem to agree on a specific definition. The reality is, you could pretty much put yourself anywhere on the spectrum between communism and fascism and you could call the person who supports a little bit more government intervention than you a socialist if you wanted to, and usually you do because that word is evil and anyone who supports it is equally evil.

[kapkomet]

And I was trying to be ULTRA clear that I didn't mean it as a dig. SSI71 said it much better then I did.

[WilliamTell]

I was impressed with how well Huckabee did tonight. I thought he was going to be dropping out after tonight, but maybe not now.

[Texsox]

And there is that whole democratic thing of redistributing wealth by taxing the living crap out of people who they deem rich and redistributing that to the lower class. Thats a bit socialist don't you think.

 

If you mean by redistributing wealth you mean education benefits, better roads, better police and fire protection, health services that keep communicable deseases like TB from spreading, then you are right. Let's live in a country that only the poorest can afford. Let's cut food programs to the poorest, let's cut financial aid, let's cut health services. Let's get out of Iraq because the poorest can't afford that war.

[Texsox]

BTW, I believe after yesterday my man McCain is the GOP nominee, a thank you to the other candidates for playing the game, but let's stop fighting Reps and start thinking about how to stop the Obama - Clinton train.

[StrangeSox]

I have a pretty comprehensive .pdf on the candidates' stances and policies on health care reform. If anyone is interested, shoot me a PM with your email and I'll try to get them out around lunch.

[NorthSideSox72]

Because he is. So is the entire Democratic Party. Now, let me be clear. It's not "socialist" like "communist", but it certainly is socialist when you:

 

want government health care

continue to grow government control on damn near everything that breathes

let's expand government entitilements on everything we can

 

(sense a theme yet?)

 

Again, why does the government have to take care of us? It should be us taking care of ourselves. Oh wait, I forgot, no one wants personal responsibility anymore, that's Uncle Sam's job.

Hyperbole much?

 

Seriously Kap, the Dems are not SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO far to the left of the GOP that you can call them socialist. In fact, looking at the way independent voters have moved towards the Dems in recent year, I tend to agree with them that it is the Republicans that have moved further from center.

 

As I said in here a couple years ago, I think the rise of the neo-con, Christian Coalition drivers of the GOP has peaked, and is now receding. The party has come to realize they abandoned a significant part of their previous base - fiscal conservatives - in favor of their social agenda. And that hasn't worked well for them at all. So, we now see McCain likely to win the nomination.

 

And I say... good! He's a heck of a lot better than any of the other goons the GOP ran out there in this race.

 

I liked three people in this thing: Richardson, Obama and McCain (all for different reasons, though). If I get two of those three to choose from in November, I'll be pretty happy. That will be the best choice set I've seen in my lifetime.

 

[kapkomet]

Hyperbole much?

 

Seriously Kap, the Dems are not SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO far to the left of the GOP that you can call them socialist. In fact, looking at the way independent voters have moved towards the Dems in recent year, I tend to agree with them that it is the Republicans that have moved further from center.

 

As I said in here a couple years ago, I think the rise of the neo-con, Christian Coalition drivers of the GOP has peaked, and is now receding. The party has come to realize they abandoned a significant part of their previous base - fiscal conservatives - in favor of their social agenda. And that hasn't worked well for them at all. So, we now see McCain likely to win the nomination.

 

And I say... good! He's a heck of a lot better than any of the other goons the GOP ran out there in this race.

 

I liked three people in this thing: Richardson, Obama and McCain (all for different reasons, though). If I get two of those three to choose from in November, I'll be pretty happy. That will be the best choice set I've seen in my lifetime.

They are too. Anyone who wants to basically take the profits (and my earnings) and redsitribute it for "social" reasons are by definition "socialist" (not "capitalist").

 

We have to be "socialist" on roads, education...

 

...

 

...

 

and then according to Hillarity and Obama,

 

illegal immigrants

welfare

social security (gov't owes me retirement)

health care

taking oil profits and subsidizing gov't activities

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

They are too. Anyone who wants to basically take the profits (and my earnings) and redsitribute it for "social" reasons are by definition "socialist" (not "capitalist").

 

We have to be "socialist" on roads, education...

 

...

 

...

 

and then according to Hillarity and Obama,

 

illegal immigrants

welfare

social security (gov't owes me retirement)

health care

taking oil profits and subsidizing gov't activities

Saying that because the Democrats have a few areas with policies CLOSER to socialism than the GOP... is like saying that the Bush administration are like Nazis because of their desires for warrantless surveillance and other socially-controlling legislation. They both miss the mark absurdly.

 

[kapkomet]

Why is "socialist" so bad? I didn't mean it in the communistic way. *gawsh, sooooo sensitive*!

[Texsox]

I don't think it is the government owes you a retirement. If we have decided as a society it is better to feed and shelter the hungry and homeless, that would include the retired. I see social security, in part, as forced savings. It's the government saying, dammit, if we are responsible to feed and shelter you, we're going to mandate that you will contribute via payroll deductions.

 

And as far as food and shelter, into the equation is reduction in crime and where to go for help. I'm as faith based as most here, if not more, but image a system where Churches ran all the soup kitchens. Would the Christian right really prefer a system where people listened to a Islamic or Satanic service in order to eat? I'm guessing not.

[southsider2k5]

I don't think it is the government owes you a retirement. If we have decided as a society it is better to feed and shelter the hungry and homeless, that would include the retired. I see social security, in part, as forced savings. It's the government saying, dammit, if we are responsible to feed and shelter you, we're going to mandate that you will contribute via payroll deductions.

 

And as far as food and shelter, into the equation is reduction in crime and where to go for help. I'm as faith based as most here, if not more, but image a system where Churches ran all the soup kitchens. Would the Christian right really prefer a system where people listened to a Islamic or Satanic service in order to eat? I'm guessing not.

 

I think the point he is making deals with choice. Its one thing to choose to help people, its another to be forced. Taking valuemaking decesions away from people and making them government based gets into murky territory.

[Texsox]

I think the point he is making deals with choice. Its one thing to choose to help people, its another to be forced. Taking valuemaking decesions away from people and making them government based gets into murky territory.

 

It certainly does. But that is the function of our elected leaders. We are forced to accept certain roads, military actions, education programs, etc.

[Rex Kickass]

I think the point he is making deals with choice. Its one thing to choose to help people, its another to be forced. Taking valuemaking decesions away from people and making them government based gets into murky territory.

 

Well, the valuemaking plan everyone points to is health care. And Obama's plan is voluntary. Purely. So what's socialist about that again?