Citizens Protest Authorities

[StrangeSox]

If only those two scenarios were remotely similar to one another.

 

Yeah, serving warrants in a known hot bed of criminal activity is a bit different than a local police force responding to a psycho on a rampage. I'm really failing to grasp the link here. One was a planned operation, the other a response to a crisis.

 

And no guns were "blazing" as no shots were fired.

[Gregory Pratt]

Flash

 

I just don't see the cause for guns being drawn at that mall. It's inapprorpiate with the situation and the cause. Conversely, there are so many scenarios I've seen where a cop should do something and doesn't do anything, so I'm jaded.

 

Seriously, you know you're my guy, but have you suffered a significant head injury recently? It just seems your posts are becoming more and more bizarre.

 

You don't think policemen are essentially historians? I got that from one of the most Conservative men I know. Says we need guns because the police can't help you out if you're being robbed or raped or your house is broken into or anything like that. All police officers do is interview and take down the paperwork and pull people over for drinking and driving and arrest minorities. I think it's a gross exaggeration but any good hyperbole has basis in reality.

 

What else have I posted that's been so off-the-wall?

Brian Anderson sux?

 

If I were in that neighborhood I'd probably not feel comfortable unless I was armed also.

 

As for these people. I don't know who the bloody hell they think they are. They feel as though they can just flout the law and then start a protest when they get arrested for doing so. And we tolerate it. We tolerate it because all these whiny leftist diversity nazi's get a woody at the thought of this country being overrun by illegal aliens.

 

I doubt you've ever been in the Little Village plaza but it's not exactly intimidating.

 

Of course I'm a mixed Mexican, so what do I know of the fears of a white man in a minority neighborhood? Or I only understand it halfway.

[Texsox]

If I were in that neighborhood I'd probably not feel comfortable unless I was armed also.

 

As for these people. I don't know who the bloody hell they think they are. They feel as though they can just flout the law and then start a protest when they get arrested for doing so. And we tolerate it. We tolerate it because all these whiny leftist diversity nazi's get a woody at the thought of this country being overrun by illegal aliens.

 

The people protesting where the innocent people who were treated like criminals because they were hispanic.

[Gregory Pratt]

I've known for a long time about the fake IDs there. Everyone does, especially in this neighborhood. People I've known have gone there for documents.

 

It's just funny that finally, after years and years of what should be common knowledge amongst law enforcement, coinciding with the return of a protest that was very well-done last year as far as logistics go, the police burst into Little Village.

[StrangeSox]

It's just funny that finally, after years and years of what should be common knowledge amongst law enforcement, coinciding with the return of a protest that was very well-done last year as far as logistics go, the police burst into Little Village.

 

Does it really matter if they timed it to screw with their rally? They're still busting up a ring of people selling stolen identities. Its not like its some made-up raid to scare people.

[Flash Tizzle]

Flash

 

I just don't see the cause for guns being drawn at that mall. It's inapprorpiate with the situation and the cause.

 

Inappropriate? Read the following information and tell me, in your honest opinion, whether federal agents raiding a shopping center to detain several alleged criminals was the correct choice.

 

Federal officials say when they raided a strip mall in the Little Village neighborhood on Tuesday, they were stopping a fraudulent ID ring in which competitors stood to be murdered.

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/local_story_115063302.html

 

...

 

'I shot that dude in the liver and lungs'

CAUGHT ON TAPE | Feds say they nabbed killer in controversial Little Village raid on fake ID mill

 

Julio Leija-Sanchez was the CEO of a thriving $3 million-a-year business and, like any businessman, needed to eliminate the competition.

 

So he picked up the phone and ordered them killed, the feds alleged Wednesday.

"Burn the f------ son of a b----, man," Leija-Sanchez allegedly said in a conversation with his reputed hit man in Mexico that the feds secretly recorded.

.......

In a conversation with Leija-Sanchez, Salazar-Rodriguez allegedly described how he shot one competitor 15 times in a cab he drove in Mexico.

 

"I was walking ducked down, and when that son of a b---- saw me, he looked as if he had seen the devil!" Salazar-Rodriguez allegedly said.

 

The alleged hit man told his boss he shot the man in the liver repeatedly "because the blood that fell was black, dude. Black, black, black. . . . I shot that dude in the liver and the lungs, dude."

 

"Well, since he splashed his s--- all over me; my hands, my shirt, dude. Hell, everything smelled like blood, dude," he allegedly said.

 

As for the hit on another competitor, the hit man and two colleagues allegedly were looking forward to it.

 

They might flip a coin to decide who got to do it, the hit man allegedly said.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/358890,...-RAID26.article

 

This has obviously been closely monitored case for quite some time. I have to believe the decision to draw weapons upon a public shopping center never would have occurred if there were a viable alternative.

 

Conversely, there are so many scenarios I've seen where a cop should do something and doesn't do anything, so I'm jaded.

 

I've figured as much with your numerous references to police brutality.

 

You don't think policemen are essentially historians?

 

First, define "historians" in the context of police work. Is the term supposed to refer to their ineffectiveness at preventing crime? Crime prevention is impossible unless citizens and outside agencies work together to provide law enforcement officials with sufficient information to act upon. With this Little Village raid several days ago, federal agents likely saved the lives of several people. Yet, this will of course be looked over.

 

I got that from one of the most Conservative men I know. Says we need guns because the police can't help you out if you're being robbed or raped or your house is broken into or anything like that. All police officers do is interview and take down the paperwork and pull people over for drinking and driving and arrest minorities. I think it's a gross exaggeration but any good hyperbole has basis in reality.

That's not a good hyperbole. At all.

 

If all policemen do is interview suspects, complete paperwork, and conduct traffic stops, then I suppose all Doctors do is grab your genitals and listen for a heartbeat. That all the work ACLU lawyers conduct is to related to defending pedophiles and terrorists. I could go on.

 

It's really misconceptions such as your friends which create this divide among civilians and law enforcement.

What else have I posted that's been so off-the-wall?

Brian Anderson sux?

 

Nothing relating to baseball. Just several of your comments within this forum are different from the person I've talked to in chat. Almost as if you've been the result of police brutality yourself and accept every generalization and stereotype of their work as fact.

 

I doubt you've ever been in the Little Village plaza but it's not exactly intimidating.

 

It's the people within the area not the area itself which is intimidating. One of the detainees mentioned in one of the above articles was from Oak Lawn, not Little Village.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

It's more efficient to arrest a large group of alleged criminals in one setting rather than systematically detaining every person at their place of residence.

 

You simply can't coordinate such a large operation without hundreds of additional officers and the possibility of several escaping once word was released.

 

Only 12 of the 22 charged are in custody.

 

About 150 shoppers and workers were detained.

 

 

I still haven't heard valid reasoning for why mid-afternoon in a crowded mall was the best possible scenario for a full raid with a large number of heavily-armed officials detaining hundreds of innocent bystanders.

 

If the criminals were potentially armed and dangerous, why a crowded mall?

 

And if you didn't like my suggestion of arresting them in their homes, how about their main hub which was a basement apartment on the Southwest Side?

 

 

If I'm ever at a mall making a purchase and sixty officials armed with machine guns come in and detain me along with hundreds of other shoppers for a few hours, it's a safe bet that I might be slightly perturbed...

[Texsox]

The killer thing has me confused. If they knew a killer may have been there, and hence the weapons drawn and large show of force, why not take him separate and in an area with less innocent people? If they didn't know he was there, we are back to the why all this show of force for a white color crime?

[southsider2k5]

So exactly what laws do people have to obey anymore?

[Texsox]

So exactly what laws do people have to obey anymore?

 

SS,

 

There is an appropriate amount of force that we allow our police to use. We don't expect them to raid Enron in full riot gear, pushing every MBA against the wall asking for ID, drawing their guns and kicking in the bathroom doors, to arrest people for white color crimes.

 

When it appears that the police may have been in the terror game, it must be investigated.

[southsider2k5]

SS,

 

There is an appropriate amount of force that we allow our police to use. We don't expect them to raid Enron in full riot gear, pushing every MBA against the wall asking for ID, drawing their guns and kicking in the bathroom doors, to arrest people for white color crimes.

 

When it appears that the police may have been in the terror game, it must be investigated.

 

How many crimes need to be committed before we do something serious?

[NorthSideSox72]

You don't think policemen are essentially historians? I got that from one of the most Conservative men I know. Says we need guns because the police can't help you out if you're being robbed or raped or your house is broken into or anything like that. All police officers do is interview and take down the paperwork and pull people over for drinking and driving and arrest minorities. I think it's a gross exaggeration but any good hyperbole has basis in reality.

GP, part of the reason for this trend towards police "historians" is that people are less and less willing to communicate with the police except after they have been victimized. This is a problem on both sides of course - people seem to just accept things around them now, and cops are becoming more focused on traffic and showing the flag. In any case, its not like the cops like this role.

 

And comparing this to VT is a joke. For that matter, while an argument can be made that the VT cops could have done more after the first shooting, to say they did "nothing" is just not in reality.

 

 

The killer thing has me confused. If they knew a killer may have been there, and hence the weapons drawn and large show of force, why not take him separate and in an area with less innocent people? If they didn't know he was there, we are back to the why all this show of force for a white color crime?

See Flash's posts. Having to nab an entire ring of people, getting them individually is highly problematic, more dangerous, and less likely to succeed.

[Gregory Pratt]

Inappropriate? Read the following information and tell me, in your honest opinion, whether federal agents raiding a shopping center to detain several alleged criminals was the correct choice.

 

I believe in the raid -- I don't believe in the timing and I don't believe in the guns-drawn. Go to that little mall and you'll see why I think it's inappropriate to go in there with your weapons drawn in such a small-quarters type of place.

 

If all policemen do is interview suspects, complete paperwork, and conduct traffic stops, then I suppose all Doctors do is grab your genitals and listen for a heartbeat. That all the work ACLU lawyers conduct is to related to defending pedophiles and terrorists. I could go on.

 

That's a good point and well-made.

 

Nothing relating to baseball. Just several of your comments within this forum are different from the person I've talked to in chat. Almost as if you've been the result of police brutality yourself and accept every generalization and stereotype of their work as fact.

 

No, no, I appreciate police officers in general but the Chicago PD makes me sick and every article I read about it makes me sick. Take what happened with the attempted cover-up of the beating-of-the-bartender; take what happened in that article I posted earlier, "Killed on Camera," and then we've got personal experiences with bad police officers. I was arrested in the seventh grade walking away from a friend who was vandalizing. Cop drove onto the sidewalk and took us both in. He was rough with a skinny seventh-grader (me) and unnecessarily so; and then he kept calling us spicks and talking about how we were good-for-nothings who'd be back and a few cops who were with him thought it was pretty funny. There are other little things. I know some shady, incredibly racist cops in Mt. Greenwood, where I go to school; when I was little, I was being bullied by some gang members and had to go to a store but was terrified to; a cop was passing by and I told him that I'd been threatened and if he'd keep a quick eye for me while I walked a couple of blocks and he said, "Get the f*** out of here, kid. It's not our problem." And then he drove a couple of blocks in the direction I was headed but pretty fast and I couldn't believe it.

 

I've never, you know, called a cop a "pig" or declared hatred for police officers, but I don't believe in those words on their cars anymore. Is that their fault or mine? I don't know, man, but my house has been broken into a handful of times -- well, different apartments, I mean, but anyway, and cops took forever to get there.

 

I have less complaints about this whole thing than I would if Patrick Fitzgerald weren't involved. I idolize Fitzgerald. But I'm still iffy on the timing and the guns-drawn. I'm iffy about the innocents held.

 

As far as actually going in, or the warrants -- that's not a problem, if you get what I mean.

 

I think there might be a misconception that I hate police officers. I don't. I'm not some nutty anarchist or anything. I just don't have nice things to see about a department that encourages corruption, blackmails beaten women and promotes a man who quite clearly shot someone in the face at point-blank range and lied through his teeth even with camera evidence that shows he was lying. And I'm baffled by what I see from policemen when things like VA Tech happen. It really makes me wonder what the hell's going on sometimes with our department and our people.

[Texsox]

How many crimes need to be committed before we do something serious?

 

I am not against arresting and convicting them. I have no problem with that. But again, it's the tactics. Was the force appropriate for the situation? Would they have gone into Enron with the same tactics to arrest them for their white collar crimes?

 

I think we need to over see the police and not allow them free reign. If they did indeed decide on this method because they wanted to send a message, or because of the race of the people, etc. we ought to know that. I don't want to draw this parallel, it wasn't that extreme, but think a couple steps from this and it looks like the gestapo coming in. That's what I want to avoid.

 

 

 

 

See Flash's posts. Having to nab an entire ring of people, getting them individually is highly problematic, more dangerous, and less likely to succeed.

 

They were selling false documents. Why would you think they were dangerous? Especially to the level that the police responded? I must be missing something in here. Were any of them already convicted for violent crimes?

 

It looked like to me they were entering a Gang Headquarters not a shopping mall.

[NorthSideSox72]

They were selling false documents. Why would you think they were dangerous? Especially to the level that the police responded? I must be missing something in here. Were any of them already convicted for violent crimes?

 

It looked like to me they were entering a Gang Headquarters not a shopping mall.

Did you not read the follow up article about who those ID sellers were? The death threats?

[southsider2k5]

I am not against arresting and convicting them. I have no problem with that. But again, it's the tactics. Was the force appropriate for the situation? Would they have gone into Enron with the same tactics to arrest them for their white collar crimes?

 

I think we need to over see the police and not allow them free reign. If they did indeed decide on this method because they wanted to send a message, or because of the race of the people, etc. we ought to know that. I don't want to draw this parallel, it wasn't that extreme, but think a couple steps from this and it looks like the gestapo coming in. That's what I want to avoid.

They were selling false documents. Why would you think they were dangerous? Especially to the level that the police responded? I must be missing something in here. Were any of them already convicted for violent crimes?

 

It looked like to me they were entering a Gang Headquarters not a shopping mall.

 

So how do you break up a group that includes the crimes of illegal aliens, killing people, running an illegal ID ring, tax evasion, kidnapping, dismemberment, robbery, and conspiracy, (right off of the top of my head)?

[Texsox]

So how do you break up a group that includes the crimes of illegal aliens, killing people, running an illegal ID ring, tax evasion, kidnapping, dismemberment, robbery, and conspiracy, (right off of the top of my head)?

 

As I mentioned earlier, take down the violent killer away from innocent people, not in a crowded shopping mall. Do you think they would have tried to arrest a danferous killer at Woodfield, or allowed him to exit the mall?

[southsider2k5]

As I mentioned earlier, take down the violent killer away from innocent people, not in a crowded shopping mall. Do you think they would have tried to arrest a danferous killer at Woodfield, or allowed him to exit the mall?

 

So you don't mind letting everyone else getting away once the word of the first arrest happens?

[Texsox]

So you don't mind letting everyone else getting away once the word of the first arrest happens?

 

I do mind. BTW, the reports seem confused about the violent killer. They didn't seem to be looking for him, just document forgers. If they were all non violent offenders, would the tactics then concern you?

 

Cops stop high speed pursuits to protect citizens, they don't shoot at a fleeing suspect if there is a chance of an innocent person being harmed. Are you ok with letting them get away?

 

My concern is they used over the top tactics as a way to silence a protest. That smacks of terrorism and something we can not allow our police to do.

[southsider2k5]

I do mind. BTW, the reports seem confused about the violent killer. They didn't seem to be looking for him, just document forgers. If they were all non violent offenders, would the tactics then concern you?

 

Cops stop high speed pursuits to protect citizens, they don't shoot at a fleeing suspect if there is a chance of an innocent person being harmed. Are you ok with letting them get away?

 

My concern is they used over the top tactics as a way to silence a protest. That smacks of terrorism and something we can not allow our police to do.

 

Eh, why not. We let 12 million people do whatever they want anyway, I guess a few more crimes won't hurt, right. After all they aren't white, so they shouldn't be subject to our laws.

[Texsox]

Eh, why not. We let 12 million people do whatever they want anyway, I guess a few more crimes won't hurt, right. After all they aren't white, so they shouldn't be subject to our laws.

 

I hope you don't think that's what I am implying here.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

So you don't mind letting everyone else getting away once the word of the first arrest happens?

 

Yet that's exactly what happened. Only ten of the 22 charged are in custody.

 

I'm hesitant to call that a complete success...

 

 

And I repeat:

 

I still haven't heard valid reasoning for why mid-afternoon in a crowded mall was the best possible scenario for a full raid with a large number of heavily-armed officials detaining hundreds of innocent bystanders.

 

If the criminals were potentially armed and dangerous, why a crowded mall?

 

Their main center of operation was some basement apartment in the Southwest side. How about getting them there instead of taking any risks with such a large number of innocent bystanders?

[southsider2k5]

I hope you don't think that's what I am implying here.

 

No thats great be proud!

 

Mexicans are better at this than anyone else. I mean who else gets to break laws and have people make excuses for them, while taking jobs and draining $40 billion from the US economy last year, which was sent to in cash Mexico, never to be spent in the US again. Can you think of anyone else who has a better set up? they must control a lot of TV and radio stations to convince everyone how great they are. But hey they are the greatest, and should be pround! Viva la Mexico!

[SleepyWhiteSox]

No thats great be proud!

 

Mexicans are better at this than anyone else. I mean who else gets to break laws and have people make excuses for them, while taking jobs and draining $40 billion from the US economy last year, which was sent to in cash Mexico, never to be spent in the US again. Can you think of anyone else who has a better set up? they must control a lot of TV and radio stations to convince everyone how great they are. But hey they are the greatest, and should be pround! Viva la Mexico!

 

Glad to see your true colors...finally...

[southsider2k5]

Glad to see your true colors...finally...

 

Eh, don't read too much into that. That was pretty much a completely sarcastic reply to an earier post, no matter how badly you want it to be my racism showing.