4/27 Games

[fathom]

You say this like KW was wrong. All the hitters did get overpaid this winter. There were some who he missed out on (IMO), but good players got star money this winter. There will be potentially two stars on the market this winter in Andruw Jones and (maybe) A-Rod, and a third very good player in Ichiro.

 

I'm not saying people didn't overpay, but if salaries keep increasing like they did, you're going to have to spend more money than you did a few years ago to get equal talent.

[3E8]

What we should do to ensure expectations are riding high on those three is giving them a delightful nickname. Such as that of Danks, Volzquez, Diamond. Worked out well for them. How about GRE? When defined, it means a set of three pitchers who will test opposing offenses to ensure their placement into the major leagues.

Haha, very clever.

[dasox24]

A-Rod

He's one player I really could see KW overpaying for.

[Heads22]

I GOT IT

 

 

 

JAG

 

Jack, Adam, Gio

[ShoeLessRob]

G

I

O

R

O

C

K

S

[fathom]

He's one player I really could see KW overpaying for.

 

No way we win a bidding war for ARod. I think it's more likely if we get in a bidding war it would be for Zambrano or in 2008 for Santana.

[hitlesswonder]

Gio's numbers are better than he really is, in my opinion. Like Tony said earlier, I'd have no problem if we used him to acquire a good young hitter. I know KW did a good job of upgrading the pitching in our system last offseason, but he neglected to add anything on the offensive end that will help our aging squad.

 

Trading Gonzalez for a player that has proven they can play in the majors would be a good move, in my opinion. Just becuase he's the Sox best prospect doesn't mean he's in the same league as Bailey, Pelfrey, Hughes, Hirsh, etc. There's a reason PHI was willing to trade him for Garcia. If some team likes the numbers he's putting up in that huge park in BHAM, do a deal. He might turn out to be a decent pitcher, but he also might be exposed in park where it's possible to hit HRs. The problem is that the Sox will still need someone to replace Buehrle and possibly Garland next season. But I personally liked the "win this year" philosophy better than counting on prospects.

 

No way we win a bidding war for ARod. I think it's more likely if we get in a bidding war it would be for Zambrano or in 2008 for Santana.

 

Agreed. I think the Sox will follow their tried and true formula of pursuing top-tier FAs but failing to sign any becuase in the end they won't beat the top bid. I think the Sox "big" signings in 2008 will be Rowand, and maybe a retread 5th starter to replace Buehrle.

[Flash Tizzle]

Trading Gonzalez for a player that has proven they can play in the majors would be a good move, in my opinion. Just becuase he's the Sox best prospect doesn't mean he's in the same league as Bailey, Pelfrey, Hughes, Hirsh, etc. There's a reason PHI was willing to trade him for Garcia. If some team likes the numbers he's putting up in that huge park in BHAM, do a deal. He might turn out to be a decent pitcher, but he also might be exposed in park where it's possible to hit HRs. The problem is that the Sox will still need someone to replace Buehrle and possibly Garland next season. But I personally liked the "win this year" philosophy better than counting on prospects.

Who exactly would we replace Buehrle or Garland with under your plan if Gonzalez is gone? We're certainly not going to overpay for anyone on the market.

 

This "win now" philosophy needs to go into the trash where it belongs. If it were the way to go, every team would have adopted it. The plan should first and foremost be to develop the system from within. Start with a different draft philosophy. Don't trade anything. You want a good player? You draft and develop one like everyone else. Or trade veteran starting pitchers for the best available packages. Begin placing certain people on notice (as KW has done) and then fire their asses if the results are evident.

 

If the team is poor in certain divisions, either plug from within or overpay on the market. No...more...trades. It's time to start looking at the American League central and realizing things need to shape up quickly. That doesn't mean dealing prospects you think are unworthy for people who may help now. After dealing Chris Young, which about every forecasting model has as a future all-star, it's already evident even one mistake can haunt a team. Let another ballclub make that mistake trading with us; not the other way around.

Edited April 29, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[CWSGuy406]

Trading Gonzalez for a player that has proven they can play in the majors would be a good move, in my opinion. Just becuase he's the Sox best prospect doesn't mean he's in the same league as Bailey, Pelfrey, Hughes, Hirsh, etc.

 

...

 

If some team likes the numbers he's putting up in that huge park in BHAM, do a deal. He might turn out to be a decent pitcher, but he also might be exposed in park where it's possible to hit HRs. The problem is that the Sox will still need someone to replace Buehrle and possibly Garland next season. But I personally liked the "win this year" philosophy better than counting on prospects.

 

I don't think you're being very fair to Gio. You seem to be penalizing him for pitching in a pitcher's park, but don't cut him any slack for pitching last year in a hitter's park. Gio is still only 21 years old, so he's still well ahead of the curve as far as pitching prospects go.

 

I also don't think it's fair to compare him to Bailey, Pelfrey and Hughes. So what you're saying is he's not the best pitching prospect in baseball? He has his flaws, sure -- his control still isn't great and the GB/FB ratio isn't very good, either. But he's a lefty throwing in the low-90s who's striking out batters at a spectacular rate. If he continues the success he's had in his first five starts, he's going to be considered one of the top lefty prospects in baseball.

 

To add to that, getting your own homegrown starting pitching is going to be huge with guys like Miguel Cabrera, A-Rod and Andruw Jones becoming FAs in the next couple winters, not to mention the fact that it's usually safer to go with the hitter. IMO the Sox shouldn't trade any of Russell, Gio or Egbert unless they're getting a young player (mid-20s) back in return.

 

I also don't get this statement:

 

There's a reason PHI was willing to trade him for Garcia.

 

What, Philly can't make mistakes? The team that gave Adam Eaton a three year deal? The team that made their best pitcher a reliever? The team that KW got the better of in the Thome deal?

 

That isn't relevant in the least bit.

[hitlesswonder]

Who exactly would we replace Buehrle or Garland with under your plan if Gonzalez is gone? We're certainly not going to overpay for anyone on the market.

 

This "win now" philosophy needs to go into the trash where it belongs. If it were the way to go, every team would have adopted it. The plan should first and foremost be to develop the system from within. Start with a different draft philosophy. Don't trade anything. You want a good player? You draft and develop one like everyone else. Or trade veteran starting pitchers for the best available packages. Begin placing certain people on notice (as KW has done) and then fire their asses if the results are evident.

 

If the team is poor in certain divisions, either plug from within or overpay on the market. No...more...trades. It's time to start looking at the American League central and realizing things need to shape up quickly. That doesn't mean dealing prospects you think are unworthy for people who may help now. After dealing Chris Young, which about every forecasting model has as a future all-star, it's already evident even one mistake can haunt a team. Let another ballclub make the mistake trading with us; not the other way around.

 

So, my implication was that I'm doubtful that Gonzalez would be a good replacement for Buehrle or Garland, hence trading him wouldn't be a bad idea in my world. I know you say it's a bad udea to trade prospects that the Sox think are "unworthy", but you have to trust the organization's talent evaluators. If those guys turn out to be wrong, then new people need to be brought in. Your philosophy would require the Sox to keep everyone they think can't play -- it's like George doing the opposite on Seinfeld. As for Gio alternatives, the Sox would have to hope someone like Russell, Egbert, Masset or Sisco could step up and start. Or they'd have to bring in a veteran on the order of Trachsel or Ortiz -- I'll admit I don't know what pitchers are likely to be around in the next FA class.

 

I'm not in the "all prospects suck" school of thought. I completely agree that the Sox drafting and scouting needs to change. A strong minor league system is vital. But one thing having prospects lets you do is trade to fill a need. Simply deciding not to trade arbitrarily elinates an avenue to improving the team. I don't know if the Chris Young trade is your motivation behind that statement, but I think the response to a bad trade should be to try to make better trades as opposed to not to trading. Chances to win a championship don't come along every year. This Sox team looks better than I thought they'd be, and I wouldn't be against a bold move by Williams to try to shore up the outfiled for this year and beyond even if that required trading Gonzalez.

[BearSox]

Egbert owns.

[hitlesswonder]

I don't think you're being very fair to Gio. You seem to be penalizing him for pitching in a pitcher's park, but don't cut him any slack for pitching last year in a hitter's park. Gio is still only 21 years old, so he's still well ahead of the curve as far as pitching prospects go.... IMO the Sox shouldn't trade any of Russell, Gio or Egbert unless they're getting a young player (mid-20s) back in return.

 

What, Philly can't make mistakes? The team that gave Adam Eaton a three year deal? The team that made their best pitcher a reliever? The team that KW got the better of in the Thome deal?

 

That isn't relevant in the least bit.

 

I agree that Gonzalez is a good prospect, I just meant he wasn't a top-tier untouchable prospect IMO. I've seen him pitch all of 2 times and even if I had seen more it wouldn't help because I'm not scout -- by which I'm saying I could obviously be wrong here. Just going by numbers, and given the concerns scouts have about his build, I wouldn't be averse to trading him for a good player. And by that I mean not Reggie Sanders. I was thinking more like a youngish OF that can hit. So, we're probably closer ot agreeing than ti seems. The comment of PHI isn't that their GM is great, it's just that if Gonzalez were widely recognized to be a talent on par with Hughes that PHI wouldn't have traded him.

[Rowand44]

I think it's more likely if we get in a bidding war it would be for Zambrano or in 2008 for Santana.

I'd love for you to be right but I just can't see that happening either. As much as I love Alex(he's one of my favorite players) I'd much rather sign Z this offseason(and it's not even close), not happening though, nor are we getting Santana in 08.

Edited April 29, 2007 by Rowand44

[DBAHO]

Gio's certainly putting up some great numbers, and I don't think we could have hoped for anything more from him so far.

 

However, you have to remember he's repeating AA and he's moved to a much better pitching envrionment, so I'd have to say what he's doing right now hasn't really shocked me.

 

I think he'll be up at Charlotte at some point, and it'll be interesting to see what impact that has on his numbers and whether he gives up the long ball at a similar rate that he did last season for the Phillies AA affilate.

[BearSox]

Gio's certainly putting up some great numbers, and I don't think we could have hoped for anything more from him so far.

 

However, you have to remember he's repeating AA and he's moved to a much better pitching envrionment, so I'd have to say what he's doing right now hasn't really shocked me.

 

I think he'll be up at Charlotte at some point, and it'll be interesting to see what impact that has on his numbers and whether he gives up the long ball at a similar rate that he did last season for the Phillies AA affilate.

It doesn't matter if he's pitching in my back yard, you can't deny the K's.

[hitlesswonder]

It doesn't matter if he's pitching in my back yard, you can't deny the K's.

 

The Ks are good, but it doesn't mean he's a lock to be a good major league picther. Yumeiro Petit had great K numbers in the minors, but he looks like he might not be able to get out major league hitters. Javier Vazquez routinely posts great K numbers and every year he's listed as "breakout" candidate. One of the reasons that he has never had the kind of success predicted for him is a tendency to give up HRs (although he did a good job on that last season and still had problems). Gio's a good prospect, but he's not in the same league as the top tier of pitching prospects. If he goes to Charlotte and posts these numbers, then I think it would be time to start wondering if really is very, very good.