Anderson sent down to AAA

[caulfield12]

And since Williams has been here, the Sox have definitely shown they are not willing to spend money.

 

Sorry Fathom, but I beleive you are way off here.

 

 

?????

 

Ummm....don't we have the 4th and 7th highest MLB payrolls over the last two seasons?

 

The White Sox have traditionally spent more money on payroll than their attendance justified, and the fact is we won the World Series with a $75 million dollar payroll only two seasons ago. In fact, the White Sox "valuation" by Forbes is 15th but we're spending like a first or second quartile franchise in terms of payroll.

 

We probably had the most expensive rotation in baseball last year, except for the Red Sox or Yankees.

 

Now if you think we should just go out and get an Abreu or Ichiro or Soriano, no, that's not likely to happen...it's only possible for about 5 clubs in baseball.

[max power]

Apparently Aaron Rowand doesn't count either.

 

The jury's still out on Chris Young. As it is on Honel, to a lesser extent.

 

And to say that McCullough and Broadway are busts. They were late first round draft picks, not many top-line starters come out of the 20-30 picks in the first.

 

Borchard was the big miss, although Stumm and Honel have hurt a lot too. Heck, add in Danny Wright, Rauch, Barcelo, Corwin Malone, Brian West, Myette, Matt Ginter, Guerrier...lots of disasters on the pitching front.

Can't every competitive team save the marlins list just as many failures from the first round?

 

I think this is good for brian. He needs at bats. He wasn't improving on the bench here.

[caulfield12]

If Fields doesn't turn around his swing/attitude right now, his stock is going to plummet. People in the press box in Durham this weekend were shocked at how bad he looked.

We don't spend big money on free agents. If you look at how things are setting up, we're going to have a lot of positions opening up in the next two years that if we want to compete at a division winning level, we're going to have to go outside the organization. If KW really doesn't want to re-sign Buehrle, Garland, or Contreras, then I don't see how we're going to have a lot of trade chips to acquire offensive help. When you can't call up a single player to DH from your system, it makes you worry about your offensive prospects.

 

When's the last time we got into a bidding war for a player and won once it go over 6 million a year?

 

 

For Konerko against the Angels and Orioles...and Garland/Contreras/Vazquez, essentially, as they decided to stay here instead of testing the market.

 

Why would we re-sign Jose past 2009 and Konerko past 2010? Both of those contracts might end up being difficult to move...in fact, Konerko's deal is the only one I worried about in the previous five years (when he was really slumping, like he is now), along with the El Duque contract.

 

KW has been very smart with most of his contracts.

 

Fact is, McCarthy and Young are also struggling...so everyone's criticizing the farm system, although they would be b****ing even more if both were leading in the ROY race (I know, Brandon has too many IP).

[fathom]

For Konerko against the Angels and Orioles...and Garland/Contreras/Vazquez, essentially, as they decided to stay here instead of testing the market.

 

Why would we re-sign Jose past 2009 and Konerko past 2010? Both of those contracts might end up being difficult to move...in fact, Konerko's deal is the only one I worried about in the previous five years (when he was really slumping, like he is now), along with the El Duque contract.

 

Is Contreras signed for another 2 full seasons? And obviously I meant a bidding war for a player not affiliated with our team.

Edited April 30, 2007 by fathom

[caulfield12]

Can't every competitive team save the marlins list just as many failures from the first round?

 

I think this is good for brian. He needs at bats. He wasn't improving on the bench here.

 

 

Just getting to the big leagues, it's only 2/3rd's or so (of the first rounders).

 

Then you have the "high impact" All-Star caliber players, and the majority of them are usually packed in the Top 5-10 picks, of which we almost never have that opportunity to pick so high.

 

If you want to see a record of disastrous first round picks, look at franchises like the Orioles or Royals.

 

Our farm system isn't horrible, it isn't great either. We're somewhere, realistically, between 13th-17th and top loaded in AA and AAA with pitching. No legit catching prospects (I know, Lucy and Hernandez have SOME fans)...no middle infield prospects either, unless you count Getz and Shelby.

 

Is Contreras signed for another 2 full seasons? And obviously I meant a bidding war for a player not affiliated with our team.

 

Yes, through 2009, same as Javier now.

Edited April 30, 2007 by caulfield12

[Soxfest]

[Kalapse]

Yes, through 2009, same as Javier now.

Javy is signed through 2010.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

CARL EVERETT!!!woot!!!11

[Flash Tizzle]

And to say that McCullough and Broadway are busts. They were late first round draft picks, not many top-line starters come out of the 20-30 picks in the first.

You're right to assume not many top-line starters emerge from those picks. However, there are quite a number of legitimate major league pitchers and prospects:

 

Since 2000:

-Adam Wainwright

-Boof Bonser

-Noah Lowry

-Jeremy Bonderman

-Joe Blanton

-Matt Cain

-Chad Cordero

-David Aardsma

-Chad Billingsley

-Adam Miller

-Glen Perkins

-Philip Hughes

-Eric Hurley

-Matt Garza

 

It's not impossible to make a good selection at our draft position.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[Balta1701]

Well, I still don't think that it was the 100% correct move...I will sit around and say that the proper move was to give Anderson another 2 months playing everyday with Erstad as a genuine backup coming out of ST. But all things considered...this is the best move.

 

Come on Brian, take your licks, get your swing back, and I hope this works just as well for you as the send-down last season worked for the Legend of Boone Logan. An awful lot of people never wanted to see Boone again when he went down. Time to earn your way back. And please do...we really need you.

 

And Ryan Sweeney needs to play every single freaking day.

[caulfield12]

Javy is signed through 2010.

 

My mistake, I thought they included this year in the deal...

 

A lot will obviously depend on what happens to Garland and Buehrle. (I know, understatement of century).

For now, I don't even care about Crede anymore...although he has to hit again for his value to go up to where it "should" be in the mid-summer trade market.

 

Problem with that is there's now uncertainty surrounding Fields too.

 

You're right to assume not many top-line starters emerge from those picks. However, there are quite a number of legitimate major league pitchers and prospects:

 

Since 2000:

-Adam Wainwright

-Boof Bonser

-Noah Lowry

-Jeremy Bonderman

-Joe Blanton

-Matt Cain

-Chad Cordero

-David Aardsma

-Chad Billingsley

-Adam Miller

-Glen Perkins

-Philip Hughes

-Eric Hurley

-Matt Garza

 

It's not impossible to make a good selection at our draft position.

 

That's still down to a 20-30% chance.....divide those players (and the jury's out on at least half of them STILL) by 7 years.

 

Interestingly, Bonderman, Bonser, Aardsma have made their impacts with other teams.

Also, SF seems like they've done a good job with those picks (Cain and Lowry too), but let Bonser and Aardmsa go too soon perhaps.

 

I really wish the White Sox wouldn't go with the more polished pitcher approach over taking guys with stuff like Garza or Baker out of OSU (Twins). It will haunt KW if he has to deal with Garza for the next six years while Broadway rots in AAA or with the Nationals/D-Rays as their fifth starter.

 

Ring, McCullough and Broadway were certainly not considered "stuff" pitchers....although KW has had "hits" later in the draft with the likes of Buehrle, McCarthy, Malone, Rauch, etc.

 

Also, we have a COLLECTION of first rounders on this team from other organizations....Aardsma (SFG), Thornton (SEA), Jenks (5th), Sisco (Cubs/Royals) and then MacDougal (KCR).

 

I think DJ once said we had more first round draft picks on our major league roster than any organization.

[hitlesswonder]

That's still down to a 20-30% chance.....divide those players (and the jury's out on at least half of them STILL) by 7 years.

 

I actually don't think the Sox have done that terribly drafting and developing pitching. They haven't excelled the way the Twins have, but the Twins have to be the best in baseball at it. It doesn't excuse it, but lots of other teams passed on Garza as well. And the injury attrition rate among pitchers is so horrific, I'm sure most other teams have pitching prospect lists that are as bad as the Sox (the Mariners, for example). Even though the Giants have had some successes (Matt Cain, and Lincecum -- who I can't wait to see), they had the trio of Foppert, Aisworth, and Williams flame out though all were highly regarded.

 

Anyway, I agree the Sox need to improve and need to draft "stuff" pitchers more heavily. But the system's biggest failure is in developing position players. I see 1 decent position prospect in the Sox system. That's just atrocious.

[beautox]

It's Brian's fault the offense sucks. His bad attitude is rubbing off on all the other hitters. Now the offense is guaranteed to pick up!

 

He can take his surfboard and flowing golden locks to Charlotte.

bye Brian

 

Cowabunga man, cow-a-bunga; oh god i said i wasn't going to cry but good byes are so hard

 

 

 

 

 

 

hope you land with the marlins/braves/rangers.

[Dick Allen]

...a crying shame.

 

How's the surfing in Charlotte? Better yet, how's the pot?

That's a cheap shot. I also highly doubt BA is the only White Sox who enjoys his downtime.

[caulfield12]

I actually don't think the Sox have done that terribly drafting and developing pitching. They haven't excelled the way the Twins have, but the Twins have to be the best in baseball at it. It doesn't excuse it, but lots of other teams passed on Garza as well. And the injury attrition rate among pitchers is so horrific, I'm sure most other teams have pitching prospect lists that are as bad as the Sox (the Mariners, for example). Even though the Giants have had some successes (Matt Cain, and Lincecum -- who I can't wait to see), they had the trio of Foppert, Aisworth, and Williams flame out though all were highly regarded.

 

Anyway, I agree the Sox need to improve and need to draft "stuff" pitchers more heavily. But the system's biggest failure is in developing position players. I see 1 decent position prospect in the Sox system. That's just atrocious.

 

 

It's because we've used our minor leaguers for trade...and it's much better to stock up on pitchers than position prospects, because those are the easiest to acquire (1B/DH), and left-handed starters, the most expensive.

 

Carter and Cunningham both look solid.

 

Lumsden was right around making the BA Top 100 list and Young was between 5-20 on almost every top 100 list for all of MLB.

 

Of the Twins' pitchers, almost all of them came via trade or Rule 5...

 

Lohse (Rule 5)

Silva (trade with Phillies)

Santana (Rule 5, then trade to Minnesota)

Bonser/Liriano/Nathan (AJ deal)

 

Durbin never evolved. They do deserve credit for Rincon, Crain, Balfour (before injury) and Neshek in that nasty pen.

 

Baker, Garza, Slowey and Perkins look like they could all be good, but I would say we have a similar chance to have an impact with what we have in AA/AAA. I'd say it's about equal.

 

What the Twins and White Sox do extremely well is find prospects in the minors (Twins) and undervalued players in the majors (White Sox, with Loaiza, Contreras, Marte, Uribe, Thornton, Sisco, Aardsma being some of the best examples) who we can acquire cheaply or with prospects who don't fit with KW's long-term plans.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(fathom @ Apr 29, 2007 -> 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is Contreras signed for another 2 full seasons? And obviously I meant a bidding war for a player not affiliated with our team.

Christ, can you be any more pickier? Here's a fact, a majority of these free agent signings the past couple of offseasons for more than $6 million a year have SUCKED. I'm glad we didn't win the bidding war for Odalis Perez or Matt Clement. Same with Dave Roberts and Juan Pierre.

 

Here's a question for you; when's the last time a Sox free agent signing was a total bust? Navarro?

[fathom]

Christ, can you be any more pickier? Here's a fact, a majority of these free agent signings the past couple of offseasons for more than $6 million a year have SUCKED. I'm glad we didn't win the bidding war for Odalis Perez or Matt Clement. Same with Dave Roberts and Juan Pierre.

 

Here's a question for you; when's the last time a Sox free agent signing was a total bust? Navarro?

 

How's it being picky to know about a free agent we signed that wasn't on our roster the previous year? Navarro definitely was a bust, and you could theoretically say that El Duque was as well. Dick Allen always talks about how lucky KW got in 2005 as the moves he wanted to make didn't happen for a reason or another, and he was able to make a much better move as a result.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Apr 29, 2007 -> 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right to assume not many top-line starters emerge from those picks. However, there are quite a number of legitimate major league pitchers and prospects:

 

Since 2000:

-Adam Wainwright

-Boof Bonser

-Noah Lowry

-Jeremy Bonderman

-Joe Blanton

-Matt Cain

-Chad Cordero

-David Aardsma

-Chad Billingsley

-Adam Miller

-Glen Perkins

-Philip Hughes

-Eric Hurley

-Matt Garza

 

It's not impossible to make a good selection at our draft position.

So over the past 7 drafts, covering 70 picks, you found 14 names, only 20%, were "good" picks. One of them is on our team as well and only another 5 have actually done something worth a damn in at the Major league level WHICH COUNTS THE MOST.

 

How come you act like it's only the Sox who are pumping out the other 90% of picks that aren't doing anything in the MLB.

 

 

QUOTE(fathom @ Apr 29, 2007 -> 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How's it being picky to know about a free agent we signed that wasn't on our roster the previous year? Navarro definitely was a bust, and you could theoretically say that El Duque was as well. Dick Allen always talks about how lucky KW got in 2005 as the moves he wanted to make didn't happen for a reason or another, and he was able to make a much better move as a result.

You are obviously setting a bias by asking about a specific dollar amount and you intentionally include the "not associated with our team" because Konerko was the obvious answer.

 

El Duque was ok for the money he signed for, had a memorable postseason, and was part of the Vazquez trade in which we gave up the "future hall of famer" (yes, one poster actually described him as that.)

[Flash Tizzle]

So over the past 7 drafts, covering 70 picks, you found 14 names, only 20%, were "good" picks. One of them is on our team as well and only another 5 have actually done something worth a damn in at the Major league level WHICH COUNTS THE MOST.

 

How come you act like it's only the Sox who are pumping out the other 90% of picks that aren't doing anything in the MLB.

That's still down to a 20-30% chance.....divide those players (and the jury's out on at least half of them STILL) by 7 years.

It's actually higher than the variance you listed.

 

If you count the number of pitchers taken between the 20th and 30th pick from 2000 to 2006, there were 39.

 

Now, you may accuse me of cherry picking, but I wouldn't count 2006 towards the total since many of the pitchers are too soon in their development. Only Andrew Miller has reached the majors of the entire first round.

None of the pitchers I included in my list were drafted in 2006, anyways.

 

That brings the number down to 13 major league quality pitchers over 33 total from the six drafts encompassing 2000-2005. That's 39.4%. Nothing is guaranteed, but still, it isn't impossible to expect success.

 

You'd think the odds would have played in our favor over 15+ years. Regardless of first round position, we've hardly been making the right selections.

[Whitewashed in '05]

It's because we've used our minor leaguers for trade...and it's much better to stock up on pitchers than position prospects, because those are the easiest to acquire (1B/DH), and left-handed starters, the most expensive.

 

Carter and Cunningham both look solid.

 

Lumsden was right around making the BA Top 100 list and Young was between 5-20 on almost every top 100 list for all of MLB.

 

Of the Twins' pitchers, almost all of them came via trade or Rule 5...

 

Lohse (Rule 5)

Silva (trade with Phillies)

Santana (Rule 5, then trade to Minnesota)

Bonser/Liriano/Nathan (AJ deal)

 

Durbin never evolved. They do deserve credit for Rincon, Crain, Balfour (before injury) and Neshek in that nasty pen.

 

Baker, Garza, Slowey and Perkins look like they could all be good, but I would say we have a similar chance to have an impact with what we have in AA/AAA. I'd say it's about equal.

 

What the Twins and White Sox do extremely well is find prospects in the minors (Twins) and undervalued players in the majors (White Sox, with Loaiza, Contreras, Marte, Uribe, Thornton, Sisco, Aardsma being some of the best examples) who we can acquire cheaply or with prospects who don't fit with KW's long-term plans.

I agree on a lot of things you said, but I wanted to point out that the Twins and Sox are two different organizations. One of them has good scouting for the most part and the other, the sox, has mediocre scouting. I say mediocre because we are able to find our fair share of diamonds in the rough, but the players we draft continue to bust. Which leads me to my next point.

 

The Twins actually try to teach their players to play the game right. You always hear about how the Twins never beat themselves and do the best to their ability even if there are other more talented teams competing against them. Of course hustle will only take you so far because it takes talent to win the big games. Thats something which the Twins haven't been able to do when they reach the playoffs. Their player development is great because they get the most out of their guys. Why can't the sox do that? How many rookies struggle for years with the sox before they do well? It seems like every player. KW called out the scouts earlier in the year, how about getting some better coaches along with better players.

[CWSGuy406]

and you could theoretically say that El Duque was as well.

 

No you can't. How much did the Sox pay El Duque, $4-6 million? El Duque gave the Sox 120 innings of a 5.10 ERA, not to mention what he did in the playoffs. What El Duque did for the Sox in 2005 was much better than the average fifth starter around the league.

 

My question is this -- when was the Sox lost a bidding war to a player that they realistically wanted? Then again, that's not really a fair question, either, because most of that is based on speculation, not real facts.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Apr 29, 2007 -> 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now, you may accuse me of cherry picking, but I wouldn't count 2006 towards the total since many of the pitchers are too soon in their development.

So what's with that 10 years crap in your sig? I asked you before; isn't unfair to expect draft picks from at least two years ago to make any kind of contribution at the major league level?

[Rowand44]

Don't even take it there. You know exactly what I am talking about without the additional BS. On this board especially, the large portion that supported him felt he could do no wrong. When he didn't play, it wasn't his fault. When he didn't get hits, it wasn't his fault. When he dogged to get balls in the outfield in this past week alone, it wasn't his fault. When it came to this kid, a VAST majority of those who were/are in his corner always pointed the finger in the other direction instead of him.

 

So don't give me, "where do you get this s*** from", because if it wasn't prevalent I wouldn't have brought it up.

 

The guy needed to go, PERIOD. End of discussion.

 

EDIT: On a side note, I WAS a BIG Anderson supporter, but enough is enough with this whole debate.

Actually the majority of the so called Anderson supporters just believe the kid was handled completely wrong, if you want to debate that or not, whatever but that was what a lot of people had the problem with. Sure there are some people that believe Brian will be an allstar(certainly not me) or he's never done anything or this and that, but what's more ridiculous, those people or the ones who refuse to believe that someone can improve after 400-450 major league ab's.

 

Anderson was not good last year at the plate, everyone knows that but he did show some improvement in the 2nd half of the season. Still wasn't fantastic but it was improvement, would he have continued to improve if he started this year? I have no clue, but I believe he deserved that shot. If Ozzie didn't believe so, fine then let him start the year in Charlotte. We cleared the way for this guy and then put him in the s***tiest situation ever, everyone and their mothers knew he'd struggle in that role.

 

Some of the comments about why people like Brian are just completely asinine. Everyone knows that the only reason I ever supported him is because I thought he was such a cool surfer dude.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

LOL at everybody calling BA a bust already. HE HAS HAD 416 AT-BATS!! Could I see him being a bust? Absolutely. But I'm not about to give up on the guy after 400 at-bats. The guy was never supposed to be a future stud. He hasn't hit yet but everyone will agree with me in that he hasn't been handled properly in his brief career.

[Flash Tizzle]

So what's with that 10 years crap in your sig? I asked you before; isn't unfair to expect draft picks from at least two years ago to make any kind of contribution at the major league level?

You don't need more than two years to understand the value of a prospect.

 

Garza -- drafted #25 in 2005 -- has dominated minor league competition at every level, has power stuff, and happens to be in the right organization for pitching development. I don't need more than two years to figure that out.