Blow This Team Up

[The Ginger Kid]

just got back from my first game of the season.

 

ho-lee-s***.

 

this team is baaad.

[Gene Honda Civic]

 

Reminds me of my old favorite...

 

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

I am officially convinced that we are the worst team in the Major Leagues.

 

Yes, the worst. Worse than the Cubs, than the Royals, than the Reds... everyone of them is better.

 

Please

[caulfield12]

Please

 

 

Well, at least now some legit discussions start. Trading Danks is silly, unless you can identify an even better player (in multiples, Masset AND Danks for McCarthy), and contending teams are not going to take a rookie pitcher to get them through the heat of the pennant race, unless he throws exceptional stuff, like Verlander or Liriano.

 

A big decision in predicated on keeping Buehrle or not...if you can't, then that opens up a whole new cans of worms, because it doesn't make much sense to keep Garland, Contreras and Vazquez around if you're going to have to go out and replace Buehrle with Russell or Gio (and not a trade or comparable FA).

 

If you keep Buehrle, then you seriously consider keeping Garland and Vazquez and getting competitive for 2008, instead of 09/10, as the Indians did (rebuilt in 2002, competitive again in 2005).

 

The problem here is we have no Bartolo Colon that can net us Sizemore, Lee and Brandon Phillips in return.

 

We're not going to trade Konerko, and there's a SLIM chance we deal Thome.

 

Of course, the other obvious problem here is we don't even have a legit future All-Star among Sweeney, Anderson, Fields and Owens...the way it looks today. Heck, we don't even know for sure if they're capable of being starters on a major league team.

 

By the way, whoever said Rowand being who you rebuild around is off their rocker, same with Ichiro or A-Rod or any of those names. You add those types of players when you're ONE player away, not 5-7, from being a 90-95 win team again.

 

Pretty soon, there will be no reason not to ditch Crede, AJ, Uribe, Iguchi, Erstad (let him elevate his value as much as possible, then trade him...if he continues to show that he's healthy, he can be a valuable addition to many teams looking for a spot starter, to strengthen their bench and for a player who's been through a pennant race)...

 

Get what you can for Dye, Mackowiak, Pods (let him play and show he's healthy so we can dump him, in June and July we can "market" Erstad and Pods around both leagues)...as well as Cintron.

 

You obviously keep Hall and maybe Ozuna, although Ozuna should never be a full-time player. I like him as a bench player, he brings a positive energy to the team.

 

I think you also have to look at any offers for Jenks, because he's more valuable to another team than he would be to a rebuilding team and we have any number of replacements that could save 65-80% of games...or we could always go the cheap route for someone like a Todd Jones or Borowski in 2008 or 09, as the Indians did when Carmona and a host of relievers failed en masse.

 

 

Aardsma as closer

Sisco

Logan

Masset

 

Danks, Gio, Russell, Haeger, Broadway, McCullough, Phillips, Egbert

 

Hall

Ozuna

Konerko

Thome

back-up catcher/AAA

Terrero/AAA

Anderson

Fields

Owens

Sweeney

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

Phase 1: Just start releasing the following Vets that are not hitting: Citron & Mackowiak. Not like anybody will want them.

 

Pahse 2: Fire Sale on Offense. Everybody is available for the right price. Iguchi, Dye, and a healthy Pods are priced to sell. Since the pitching is not a problem I hold on to them, even Buehrle. Triple A hitter can at least match the current offensive Anoxeria Ball.

 

Blast Away!

[caulfield12]

Phase 1: Just start releasing the following Vets that are not hitting: Citron & Mackowiak. Not like anybody will want them.

 

Pahse 2: Fire Sale on Offense. Everybody is available for the right price. Iguchi, Dye, and a healthy Pods are priced to sell. Since the pitching is not a problem I hold on to them, even Buehrle. Triple A hitter can at least match the current offensive Anoxeria Ball.

 

Blast Away!

 

I doubt KW and JR will eat $5 million in contracts this early in the season, especially when we have nobody in AA and AAA that can do any better than Cintron or Mack.

 

Their track records show that they'll hit eventually, it's just that we don't have much time to wait. They're fine as bench players, but they're not everyday players by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Then there's the question of who do you replace them with? Legit prospects don't come up and sit on the bench....well, except for BA. Sure, we could get rid of Cintron for Andy Gonzalez or Pedro Lopez, but we're not going to get any offense from either of those two. It would be the equivalent of Molina being added to another bench spot.

Edited May 5, 2007 by caulfield12

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

I doubt KW and JR will eat $5 million in contracts this early in the season, especially when we have nobody in AA and AAA that can do any better than Cintron or Mack.

 

While agree that JR will not just eat the contracts, do you really think we don't have somebody in Triple A or Double A capable of hitting .050 (Citron) in the big leagues? Even Brian Anderson could do that.

[Flash Tizzle]

Let's be honest here -- if the team, as currently constructed, is out of contention come the end of June, what hope do we have for 2008? Detroit, Cleveland, and Minnesota aren't going anywhere.

 

Our window of opportunity is closing fast. And no, I don't believe that means throwing everything into this season to salvage it.

 

Every scenario I envisioned for signing Suzuki or Rodriguez in the offseason assumed this ballclub would contend deep into the season. As of now, that's not looking very likely. We'll have trouble enough fielding a team under next season's projected payroll; let alone signing a superstar level talent.

 

If the White Sox are seven more games out of playoff contention come the end of the June, all offers should be considered for Buehrle, Dye, and Iguchi. At the least, one of the three should be dealt for the best available package. Hopefully, one of the remaining two is worthy of Class A compensation.

 

I've heard people on occasion talk about Dye and Crede, and how dealing them at their peak value last season may have been a good idea. And while I agree it would have been ideal, there's one problem -- no one was available from within to replace their production. No player was available on the market, either.

 

Over the offseason is when we'll know more about the progress of several prospects. Does Fields begin to hit? Will Sweeney be given consideration as a full-time starter? Will Anderson even be with the White Sox? Can we plug these players into positions, or will we have to make a trade or FA signing to compensate?

 

Prospects not producing hurts our present and future. Just think what those two, Fields and Sweeney, mean to the direction of this ballclub. If Fields were -- at the least -- replicating last season, we'd have a replacement for Crede; perhaps trading him after October. A successful Sweeney provides a replacement for Podsednik. Which shouldn't be difficult, unless Guillen is obsessed with the notion of a protypical leadoff hitter. Now, as far as Dye, that's another tough situation. There's no Hunter Pence in our system.

 

The pitching, at the least, appears more stabilized. One of Garland or Contreras should be gone. One of Broadway, Haeger, Gonzalez, Egbert, Russell, or (insert acquired prospect) should have their position.

Edited May 5, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[sircaffey]

They should be buyers, not sellers at the trade deadline and give it one last shot with this crew this year.

 

Next year, they should be big spenders in the FA market. They're drawing fans, and have high TV and Radio Ratings in a major market. They could afford it. Bring in Ichiro and Andruw Jones in the Outfield. Get rid of Cintron and Mackowiak and tweak the bench with some speedsters. Try to improve at 2B with a more "athletic" type player.

 

Keep the pitching staff intact. The Sox need to operate like the major market team they are.

 

What should be done is to blow up this team by the deadline as in trading Buehrle, Contreras, Dye, Iguchi, Thome, Crede. Then make some splashes in the FA market with a host of young talent surrounding them.

 

It would make for a very interesting team to watch.

[caulfield12]

Let's be honest here -- if the team, as currently constructed, is out of contention come the end of June, what hope do we have for 2008? Detroit, Cleveland, and Minnesota aren't going anywhere.

 

Our window of opportunity is closing fast. And no, I don't believe that means throwing everything into this season to salvage it.

 

Every scenario I envisioned for signing Suzuki or Rodriguez in the offseason assumed this ballclub would contend deep into the season. As of now, that's not looking very likely. We'll have trouble enough fielding a team under next season's projected payroll; let alone signing a superstar level talent.

 

If the White Sox are seven more games out of playoff contention come the end of the June, all offers should be considered for Buehrle, Dye, and Iguchi. At the least, one of the three should be dealt for the best available package. Hopefully, one of the remaining two is worthy of Class A compensation.

 

I've heard people on occasion talk about Dye and Crede, and how dealing them at their peak value last season may have been a good idea. And while I agree it would have been ideal, there's one problem -- no one was available from within to replace their production. No player was available on the market, either.

 

Over the offseason is when we'll know more about the progress of several prospects. Does Fields begin to hit? Will Sweeney be given consideration as a full-time starter? Will Anderson even be with the White Sox? Can we plug these players into positions, or will we have to make a trade or FA signing to compensate?

 

Prospects not producing hurts our present and future. Just think what those two, Fields and Sweeney, mean to the direction of this ballclub. If Fields were -- at the least -- replicating last season, we'd have a replacement for Crede; perhaps trading him after October. A successful Sweeney provides a replacement for Podsednik. Which shouldn't be difficult, unless Guillen is obsessed with the notion of a protypical leadoff hitter. Now, as far as Dye, that's another tough situation. There's no Hunter Pence in our system.

 

The pitching, at the least, appears more stabilized. One of Garland or Contreras should be gone. One of Broadway, Haeger, Gonzalez, Egbert, Russell, or (insert acquired prospect) should have their position.

 

 

Iguchi's not going to net us much in return. The problem is we have no replacement in our system, unless you want to move Uribe over to 2B and get a "real" SS. I don't want to see Cintron or Ozuna as a starter at 2B. Nor Andy Gonzalez or Pedro Lopez.

 

So we can spend $4-5 million and get a veteran, or acquire a young prospect.

 

It doesn't make any sense to wait until next offseason to start changing the complexion of this team. It has to start in June and July, and you have to give Fields, Sweeney, Anderson and Owens a chance to establish that they can be counted on OR not for the 2008 season. If we don't trade Crede in June/July or this offseason, we'll have to trade him in the middle of 2008, and we still won't know if Fields can do the job or not. So then do you go out and get a Herbert Perry/Erstad for one year or do you give the job to Josh and HOPE things work out? Same thing with LF/RF....why not see what Owens can do? Maybe it will save you from having to spend $6-10 million on a Juan Pierre, Dave Roberts or Gary Matthews, Jr. At least platoon Sweeney and Anderson in CF and LF to the point where they each can get 300-350 at-bats, then you make whatever adjustments are necessary in the offseason.

 

You can never be sure about any young player, but this "stopgap" approach of Erstad and Mackowiak and Gload and Ozuna needs to end.

 

If we can keep Buehrle, we don't have to fix much in the pitching department.

[knightni]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2007 by knightni

[BurlyMan56]

knight, that is hilarious

[Baines3]

Really good captions to the pics. Although I thought the second one was the best.

[caulfield12]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you mean gagged...or gauged, not sure which

[knightni]

I think you mean gagged...or gauged, not sure which

 

Sorry, you don't know the inside joke.

 

Here's a reference to it.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gaged

[chisoxfan79]

I am gonna have to agree and say blow this thing up by mid June it is looking like it was not meant to be this year Cleveland is winning every day The Twins and Tigers are doing there thing. First in the offseason get rid of Ozzie and bring in a manager that can work with young players like a Joe Girardi and I am thinking we need to restaff our scouting department because our drafts have been piss poor for the longest of time where is our studs through the draft like a David Wright or a Verlander, you can't rely on KW making good trades (which he does) to build a farm system you have to do it through the draft, and what about out International scouting that has been a non factor a long time I want a guy like a Jose Reyes to come through our system.

 

GO BULLS

[Flash Tizzle]

Iguchi's not going to net us much in return. The problem is we have no replacement in our system, unless you want to move Uribe over to 2B and get a "real" SS. I don't want to see Cintron or Ozuna as a starter at 2B. Nor Andy Gonzalez or Pedro Lopez.

 

I would expect him to net the least amount of our upcoming free agents. It's just a matter of placing him on the market and viewing the offers. Have you seen the list of potential free agent second basemen for 2008? It's between Kent (who has a club option), Castillo, and Iguchi. Judging from Kent's early season production, it's likely between Castillo and Iguchi. If no one is willing to overwhelm Williams, which is possible, then retain him for 2008 or offer arbitration and receive compensation.

 

So we can spend $4-5 million and get a veteran, or acquire a young prospect.

 

Soxtalk will love this. Guess who's a free agent next season? David Eckstein. He of little power, little stature, and an almost girl-like arm. He should satisfy the grinder quotient if Erstad is gone, Iguchi is dealt, and Uribe is moved to 2B. Just throwing that out there.

 

It doesn't make any sense to wait until next offseason to start changing the complexion of this team. It has to start in June and July, and you have to give Fields, Sweeney, Anderson and Owens a chance to establish that they can be counted on OR not for the 2008 season. If we don't trade Crede in June/July or this offseason, we'll have to trade him in the middle of 2008, and we still won't know if Fields can do the job or not.

 

Crede isn't an immediate concern. You have to first worry about Dye, Buehrle and Iguchi. Why would the White Sox have to wait until midseason 2008? We could judge Fields readiness based upon 500+ AB's in Charlotte. Or however many ABs in Charlotte and production from September forward. What I worry about is if Crede were dealt, and Fields were promoted, would Guillen play him everyday? I'm guessing Ozuna and Uribe, perhaps Mackowiak if Guillen feels like it, would share time. That's not a good situation.

 

So then do you go out and get a Herbert Perry/Erstad for one year or do you give the job to Josh and HOPE things work out? Same thing with LF/RF....why not see what Owens can do? Maybe it will save you from having to spend $6-10 million on a Juan Pierre, Dave Roberts or Gary Matthews, Jr. At least platoon Sweeney and Anderson in CF and LF to the point where they each can get 300-350 at-bats, then you make whatever adjustments are necessary in the offseason.

 

I agree Anderson and Sweeney, to a lesser degree Owens, should be given full playing time if a fire-sale were to occur. Fields is what I question. His placement on this ballclub isn't as crucial in the short term as others are. This mind you, isn't what I agree with; but what I figure is realistic.

 

Fields will be considered for 2008, but it'll probably be based upon Charlotte and his late season callup. At which he'll probably split time between 3B and DH.

 

If we can keep Buehrle, we don't have to fix much in the pitching department.

I doubt that happens if we're in fire-sale/rebuilding mode.

[joeynach]

The good news is this terrible Kansas City Royal like play where you just hand games away will force KW hand. Eventually this garbage play will force KW to get rid of soem of our aging less enthused players. Im sorry but a Dye, Contreras, Uribe, etc need to go and we could use some younger more enthused players, ala the twins. This garabge we have been putting on the field will force KW to do something and something drasctic if it keeps up for 2 more weeks, guranteed. And that cant be all that bad cuz anything is better than this.

[chisoxt]

They should be buyers, not sellers at the trade deadline and give it one last shot with this crew this year.

 

Next year, they should be big spenders in the FA market. They're drawing fans, and have high TV and Radio Ratings in a major market. They could afford it. Bring in Ichiro and Andruw Jones in the Outfield. Get rid of Cintron and Mackowiak and tweak the bench with some speedsters. Try to improve at 2B with a more "athletic" type player.

 

Keep the pitching staff intact. The Sox need to operate like the major market team they are.

 

Wrong. The time to spend money on the free agent market is when the needle is pointing up, not down like it has been this season and the second half of last season. While the Sox revenue stream has improved, so have other clubs, ergo, the spending insanity we witnessed this last off season. There is no way the Sox can fill roster spots with $10-15 millon dollar players and not have anything comeing up within their own system.

 

If I were king, I would like to see the club double down on their farm system development and not worry about the free agent market until (to use a KW term), the 'next wave'.

[caulfield12]

I would expect him to net the least amount of our upcoming free agents. It's just a matter of placing him on the market and viewing the offers. Have you seen the list of potential free agent second basemen for 2008? It's between Kent (who has a club option), Castillo, and Iguchi. Judging from Kent's early season production, it's likely between Castillo and Iguchi. If no one is willing to overwhelm Williams, which is possible, then retain him for 2008 or offer arbitration and receive compensation.

Soxtalk will love this. Guess who's a free agent next season? David Eckstein. He of little power, little stature, and an almost girl-like arm. He should satisfy the grinder quotient if Erstad is gone, Iguchi is dealt, and Uribe is moved to 2B. Just throwing that out there.

 

It doesn't make any sense to wait until next offseason to start changing the complexion of this team. It has to start in June and July, and you have to give Fields, Sweeney, Anderson and Owens a chance to establish that they can be counted on OR not for the 2008 season. If we don't trade Crede in June/July or this offseason, we'll have to trade him in the middle of 2008, and we still won't know if Fields can do the job or not.

 

Crede isn't an immediate concern. You have to first worry about Dye, Buehrle and Iguchi. Why would the White Sox have to wait until midseason 2008? We could judge Fields readiness based upon 500+ AB's in Charlotte. Or however many ABs in Charlotte and production from September forward. What I worry about is if Crede were dealt, and Fields were promoted, would Guillen play him everyday? I'm guessing Ozuna and Uribe, perhaps Mackowiak if Guillen feels like it, would share time. That's not a good situation.

I agree Anderson and Sweeney, to a lesser degree Owens, should be given full playing time if a fire-sale were to occur. Fields is what I question. His placement on this ballclub isn't as crucial in the short term as others are. This mind you, isn't what I agree with; but what I figure is realistic.

 

Fields will be considered for 2008, but it'll probably be based upon Charlotte and his late season callup. At which he'll probably split time between 3B and DH.

I doubt that happens if we're in fire-sale/rebuilding mode.

 

I hope we don't get into another Snopek/Norton disaster with Fields, if we do trade Crede. I don't think KW would call him up unless he was going to get 2/3rd's or more of the at-bats. Playing Mackowiak, Ozuna and Uribe does absolutely nothing for our future...except for "showcasing" them to other teams for possible trades.

 

I think JR will be willing to finally go to $60 million and four years for Buehrle. Anything more than that in years or dollars per year and he walks. I also don't know how much of an attraction coming back to a rebuilding Sox team would be (for Mark) when he can go to St. Louis and really help turn around that pitching staff, if the ownership group is forced to open the money spigots again in reaction to a Cubs' or Brewers' division championship, or possibly the Astros if Clemens goes there.

 

I think we'll also try to get Getz (an Eckstein clone), Collaro, Lucy and Andy Gonzalez some at-bats.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we went with Getz at 2B next year, Lucy as back-up catcher and Gonzalez in Cintron's role, whatever that is...

 

You might also take a look at D. Day, Oneli Perez and Egbert to see what they can accomplish in September.

Edited May 5, 2007 by caulfield12

[TLAK]

Hold your horses boys and girls.

 

On May 5 1983 the White Sox were 10-12. 2 games under. They won the division with a 99 wins.

 

Today the White Sox are 12-14, 2 games under. Will they win 99? Have to watch the games to find out.

 

A baseball season is made up of hot streaks and cold streaks, it takes the full 6 months for things to all even out.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

The Sox pitching dominated in 2005 and won a World Championship. In 2006, partly because of pitching late into October of '05 and partly because of the World Baseball Classic, the Sox pitching faltered and that coupled with the fact that Ozie insisted on playing a backup 3B/RFer in CF, the Sox missed the playoffs despite winning 90 games.

 

This year, the pitching is dominating once again and the offense is slumping now with everyone hitting way below their normal average. If the Sox just hit to their carer norms, they're in contention.

 

But they're still an outfielder or two away from having a great team. With their window closing and the resources they have, they should try to snag a couple of stars before the deadline to win this year. Continue to operate like a major market team next year. Or else, continue to be a small market team in a Cubs dominated town.

 

And if JR is not willing/able to spend market value prices, sell the team to someone who can. I may not like paying close to $3.00 a gallon for gasolene, but either I do it or I don't drive.

 

Playing Mackowiak, Ozuna and Uribe does absolutely nothing for our future...except for "showcasing" them to other teams for possible trades.

Uribe is the Sox best SS---in fact the Sox only real SS. Whom do you want them to play at SS???

[Flash Tizzle]

I think JR will be willing to finally go to $60 million and four years for Buehrle. Anything more than that in years or dollars per year and he walks. I also don't know how much of an attraction coming back to a rebuilding Sox team would be (for Mark) when he can go to St. Louis and really help turn around that pitching staff, if the ownership group is forced to open the money spigots again in reaction to a Cubs' or Brewers' division championship, or possibly the Astros if Clemens goes there.

I'd be weary of paying Buehrle $15 million over four seasons. It's quite possible the payroll recedes back to 2005 levels. Which isn't terrible by any means, by makes Buehrle's salary -- about 20% of the total payroll -- seem a little excessive considering he's not an ace.

 

Here's my scenario if we're out of contention near June:

 

1. Dangle Iguchi, Buehrle, Dye. Whomever commands the most, trade them. If all three are in demand for quality packages, trade all three.

 

2. If the trading deadline is similar to previous years where teams aren't willing to give up much for rent-a-players, then consider keeping all three. You have to ask yourself whether someone's offer is better than the compensation you'd receive from the draft. These new collectively bargained rules really screw us. It would be just our luck if Buehrle, even with a great season, misses Type A because of 2006; Dye because of this season, and Iguchi because of this season as well.

 

It's going to be a tough decision, no question. Unless we're insulted by teams offers for our players, I can't imagine Williams taking a risk on scenario #2.

 

This isn't even taking into effect anyone who may be dealt after the season concludes. That's why I wonder about Williams, and whether he may be thinking "well, I can acquire young talent in the offseason by dealing (insert player), but I can't add draft picks."

Edited May 5, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[caulfield12]

The Sox pitching dominated in 2005 and won a World Championship. In 2006, partly because of pitching late into October of '05 and partly because of the World Baseball Classic, the Sox pitching faltered and that coupled with the fact that Ozie insisted on playing a backup 3B/RFer in CF, the Sox missed the playoffs despite winning 90 games.

 

This year, the pitching is dominating once again and the offense is slumping now with everyone hitting way below their normal average. If the Sox just hit to their carer norms, they're in contention.

 

But they're still an outfielder or two away from having a great team. With their window closing and the resources they have, they should try to snag a couple of stars before the deadline to win this year. Continue to operate like a major market team next year. Or else, continue to be a small market team in a Cubs dominated town.

 

And if JR is not willing/able to spend market value prices, sell the team to someone who can. I may not like paying close to $3.00 a gallon for gasolene, but either I do it or I don't drive.

Uribe is the Sox best SS---in fact the Sox only real SS. Whom do you want them to play at SS???

 

 

Try Eric Aybar for one...

 

You act like it's impossible to find someone better than Uribe. Or trade for Jimmy Rollins. They need a change...

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

In addition to these other thoughts, it might be a good time to see what we can get for Count. If we are not going anywhere, I would like to see what our minor league surplus of arms can do. While his age goes up, his effectiveness has gone down.