These statistics explain a lot...reality or not?

[RME JICO]

so why exactly should I commend a batter for putting up a .267/.318/.366/.684 line? I know you're not a big stats guy, but that's doing virtually nothing at all. He's been the best hitter for average on the team (other than a healthy Thome), which is why I've criticized others on the team too, but they all have upside, which Darin Erstad has virtually none of. He brings a good attitude and energy on every play, but several in the majors do too, and they provide offensive upside. Erstad, at his very best, is going to hit .300 while getting on at a .340 clip and putting up an OPS around .750, which means below average patience at the plate and below average power. The only thing the guy does well offensively is make contact with the ball. That has it's value, but that's as a 2 hitter when he's playing well (such as now), or a 7-9 hitter.

 

And let me be clear, half of the reason I criticize Erstad so much is because of how Ozzie is using him, so maybe it is a bit unjust to completely tear Erstad apart. However, how can you justify the lineup Ozzie put on the field today? It makes absolutely no sense to put two of your worst players at getting on base at the top while a guy like Iguchi is hitting 6th in a spot in the lineup that doesn't fit what he brings to the game. Ozzie is possibly the worst manager in the game when it comes to making lineups, and I have no problem saying that at all.

 

I want to like Erstad, I really do, but unless he suddenly becomes a .300/.350/.450/.800 player, or Ozzie comes to judgment and moves him down in the lineup (which, even if he gets cold again, I doubt he'll do) it's going to be very hard for me to do so.

How does Erstad have no upside, yet the rest of the lineup does? That makes no sense. He has clearly shown from ST on that he is past his injuries (just like Dye) from the last few years.

 

No one is saying you have to commend him, but bashing him for being one of the main contributors in this offense is silly. Since April 19th he is batting .357/.400/.482/.882 with 10 RBI and 2 SB. That is pretty solid production from the leadoff spot. Also, he is a pretty big improvement over the automatic out we had in CF for majority of last season. If Anderson was putting up these numbers, no one would be complaining.

 

I agree with your assessment of Ozzie's lineups. I don't believe he even knows what he is doing anymore.

Edited May 6, 2007 by RME JICO

[witesoxfan]

How does Erstad have no upside, yet the rest of the lineup does? That makes no sense. He has clearly shown from ST on that he is past his injuries (just like Dye) from the last few years.

 

No one is saying you have to commend him, but bashing him for being one of the main contributors in this offense is silly. Since April 19th he is batting .357/.400/.482/.882 with 10 RBI and 2 SB. That is pretty solid production from the leadoff spot. Also, he is a pretty big improvement over the automatic out we had in CF for majority of last season. If Anderson was putting up these numbers, no one would be complaining.

 

I agree with your assessment of Ozzie's lineups. I don't believe he even knows what he is doing anymore.

 

8 other guys in the lineup either have a future or have power (aside from Pablo Ozuna when he's in there, but he is meant to be a leadoff hitter against LHP). Darin Erstad is a .270 singles hitter and he's not going to hit 15 homers; I know he's the leadoff hitter and he doesn't need to hit for power, yadayada, but he's not getting on base at a great rate and he never will, he doesn't have the speed to steal 30 bases, and thus, he's almost never in scoring position. Offensively, he just does not bring much.

 

However, there's a reason I've shied away from criticizing Erstad and instead Walker over the past 2-3 weeks is because Erstad is actually producing. I don't see it lasting all season, but I'll take it when it comes. He'll have streaks where he hits like this, and then he'll have streaks where he is 4-3 Erstad again.

 

Basically, all I've come to really want through this whole charade of CFers the White Sox have put out there over the past 7 months of baseball is a real CFer.

[caulfield12]

8 other guys in the lineup either have a future or have power (aside from Pablo Ozuna when he's in there, but he is meant to be a leadoff hitter against LHP). Darin Erstad is a .270 singles hitter and he's not going to hit 15 homers; I know he's the leadoff hitter and he doesn't need to hit for power, yadayada, but he's not getting on base at a great rate and he never will, he doesn't have the speed to steal 30 bases, and thus, he's almost never in scoring position. Offensively, he just does not bring much.

 

However, there's a reason I've shied away from criticizing Erstad and instead Walker over the past 2-3 weeks is because Erstad is actually producing. I don't see it lasting all season, but I'll take it when it comes. He'll have streaks where he hits like this, and then he'll have streaks where he is 4-3 Erstad again.

 

Basically, all I've come to really want through this whole charade of CFers the White Sox have put out there over the past 7 months of baseball is a real CFer.

 

He's not as fast as he was 10 years ago, but he's had more than share of infield hits...he gets in on the 2B/SS quickly and can break up double plays, he always scores from 1st on a double and 2nd on a single.

 

In our starting line-up, the only guys that can run even a little are Iguchi and Uribe. I guess you can include Sweeney/Mack/Ozuna, but we're still the slowest team in baseball without a healthy Pods.

 

We don't know that BA can hit 15 homers for sure either...or get 15 stolen bases. We can just assume Sweeney will have 15 homers or 15 stolen bases his first season either. Probably not. And Erstad has been a clutch hitter, our best clutch hitter over the past 2-3 weeks.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Personal attack or not, some of you are just f***ing ridiculous.

[RME JICO]

8 other guys in the lineup either have a future or have power (aside from Pablo Ozuna when he's in there, but he is meant to be a leadoff hitter against LHP). Darin Erstad is a .270 singles hitter and he's not going to hit 15 homers; I know he's the leadoff hitter and he doesn't need to hit for power, yadayada, but he's not getting on base at a great rate and he never will, he doesn't have the speed to steal 30 bases, and thus, he's almost never in scoring position. Offensively, he just does not bring much.

 

However, there's a reason I've shied away from criticizing Erstad and instead Walker over the past 2-3 weeks is because Erstad is actually producing. I don't see it lasting all season, but I'll take it when it comes. He'll have streaks where he hits like this, and then he'll have streaks where he is 4-3 Erstad again.

 

Basically, all I've come to really want through this whole charade of CFers the White Sox have put out there over the past 7 months of baseball is a real CFer.

I understand wanting a real CFer, but Erstad is as close as we have right now.

 

Even after his bad years, he still is a .286 hitter who gets on base at a .340 clip. Again, not great, but not bad.

 

I think the fact that he is both in CF and leading off seems to make people want him to achieve almost unattainable numbers. It is funny that you mentioned 15 HRs and 30 SBs because he is on pace for 34 SBs, and 12 HRs (pretty close) - and that is after his horrible first two weeks. I would be happy with 10 HR and 25 SBs.

[witesoxfan]

I understand wanting a real CFer, but Erstad is as close as we have right now.

 

Even after his bad years, he still is a .286 hitter who gets on base at a .340 clip. Again, not great, but not bad.

 

I think the fact that he is both in CF and leading off seems to make people want him to achieve almost unattainable numbers. It is funny that you mentioned 15 HRs and 30 SBs because he is on pace for 34 SBs, and 12 HRs (pretty close) - and that is after his horrible first two weeks. I would be happy with 10 HR and 25 SBs.

 

One time in the last six years has Erstad had a .280+/.340+ split, and that was 2004 when he missed 30 games. You can't use his career statistics as indicators for what he will do because those are entirely skewed by what he did early in his career.

 

It's also funny you mention that he's on pace for those numbers, but then don't mention the fact that he's never stolen 30 bases and hasn't stolen 20 since 2002 (23), and he's hit double digit homers once since 2000, that also in 2002. If he can put up 10 homers, 25 SBs, and a .750 OPS, I'll have an Erstad signature for 4 months. I just don't think he has what it takes to reach those numbers.

[Dam8610]

I'm not even going to argue with you about it. Anyone can see that over the last few weeks Erstad's been excellent on the field.

 

What's Brian Anderson's OPS+? I'll bet it's more like OPS-

 

Considering OPS+ goes on a scale of 100 being average, Erstad having a 79 OPS+ could be considered an OPS-.

[joeynach]

So how come it's ok to spread the blame away from Erstad onto our other slumping players simply because Erstad had his own horrible slump?

 

 

In refering to the pic of the sox girl, Im now spent.....MERCY!!!

[Chisoxfn]

How does Erstad have no upside, yet the rest of the lineup does? That makes no sense. He has clearly shown from ST on that he is past his injuries (just like Dye) from the last few years.

 

No one is saying you have to commend him, but bashing him for being one of the main contributors in this offense is silly. Since April 19th he is batting .357/.400/.482/.882 with 10 RBI and 2 SB. That is pretty solid production from the leadoff spot. Also, he is a pretty big improvement over the automatic out we had in CF for majority of last season. If Anderson was putting up these numbers, no one would be complaining.

 

I agree with your assessment of Ozzie's lineups. I don't believe he even knows what he is doing anymore.

Considering the production that has came from anyone not named Erstad, does it really matter? Swap Dye and Cintron and you really couldn't tell the difference (aside from a few ab's). It really has been that bad and I think Ozzie has just thrown up his arms and is just trying things hoping he can create some sort of spark to get these guys back on track.

 

I do think we may see the Sox make some offensive shakeups and those type of moves would start with Crede getting moved. I also think there is a possibility that Sweeney becomes the new everyday left fielder.

 

I understand wanting a real CFer, but Erstad is as close as we have right now.

 

Even after his bad years, he still is a .286 hitter who gets on base at a .340 clip. Again, not great, but not bad.

 

I think the fact that he is both in CF and leading off seems to make people want him to achieve almost unattainable numbers. It is funny that you mentioned 15 HRs and 30 SBs because he is on pace for 34 SBs, and 12 HRs (pretty close) - and that is after his horrible first two weeks. I would be happy with 10 HR and 25 SBs.

He is what he is...an asset as a role player. Sure I'd prefer it if he were hitting in the 7-9 spot in the lineup but thats not the case and it isn't his fault. He's actually excelled in that role since he got his feel back (after having missed pretty much all of last year, it should be expected that he would have a slow start) so I don't get this no value.

 

The guy brings a lot of value and he knows his role and excells in it. No team can have 9 superstars in its lineup, it needs all different types of guys to be a real good consistent lineup and the Darrin Erstad type fit in and can help winning teams (especially when he's healthy) and so far this year he's helped the Sox out a lot (the production they've gotten from him has been ridiculously helpful compared to what it got from BA last year).

[palehose23]

You want a 'real' CF how about looking on the Northside at Jacque Jones- He is exactly what the Sox need- Lefty pop, decent glove, and hatred for Cubs fans

[caulfield12]

You want a 'real' CF how about looking on the Northside at Jacque Jones- He is exactly what the Sox need- Lefty pop, decent glove, and hatred for Cubs fans

 

 

Jones in CF?

 

No thanks.

 

Why would you want someone with a guaranteed, long-term contract that was not part of our future any more than Erstad.

 

And Jones has never been a "plus" defender at any position besides LF. He has a below average arm for RF and doesn't have the instincts for CF.

Edited May 7, 2007 by caulfield12

[Mplssoxfan]

You want a 'real' CF how about looking on the Northside at Jacque Jones- He is exactly what the Sox need- Lefty pop, decent glove, and hatred for Cubs fans

Yuk.

[joeynach]

Jones in CF?

 

No thanks.

 

Why would you want someone with a guaranteed, long-term contract that was not part of our future any more than Erstad.

 

And Jones has never been a "plus" defender at any position besides LF. He has a below average arm for RF and doesn't have the instincts for CF.

 

I dont want Jones either he is a lousy fielder with a lousy arm. The only plus is he's familiar with AL Central pitching, but I remember him for the longest time in a twins uniform not being able to hit above .260. No thank you. BTW i think hes only signed for 1 more year with the cubs through 08 for something like 3-4 Mil.

[Steve9347]

I could have told you all of this without the statistics... its been glaringly obvious since the second half of last year that this team just flat out isnt producing runs on a regular basis.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

The WHOLE offense has sucked.

 

Erstad hasn't sucked quite as bad as some others. THERE. Feel better ?

 

Personally, I wouldn't even care about how fast our leadoff hitter is or our team speed if we just had a bunch of guys with high OBP. I'd take a team full of Kevin Youklis's.

 

Just get on base. Stay there and don't get thrown out trying to steal. Don't try to hit homeruns. Don't strike out a lot. Take the walks. Make contact. Get some base hits. Get on base 35-40 % of the time.

 

A lineup full of those guys will score enough runs consistently to get the job done.

[Steve9347]

Personally, I wouldn't even care about how fast our leadoff hitter is or our team speed if we just had a bunch of guys with high OBP. I'd take a team full of Kevin Youklis's.

 

Someone just read, "Moneyball."

 

Hint: You're supposed to say "Scott Hatteberg's," not "Kevin Youkilis's."

Edited May 7, 2007 by Steve9347

[RME JICO]

Considering the production that has came from anyone not named Erstad, does it really matter? Swap Dye and Cintron and you really couldn't tell the difference (aside from a few ab's). It really has been that bad and I think Ozzie has just thrown up his arms and is just trying things hoping he can create some sort of spark to get these guys back on track.

 

I do think we may see the Sox make some offensive shakeups and those type of moves would start with Crede getting moved. I also think there is a possibility that Sweeney becomes the new everyday left fielder.

 

 

He is what he is...an asset as a role player. Sure I'd prefer it if he were hitting in the 7-9 spot in the lineup but thats not the case and it isn't his fault. He's actually excelled in that role since he got his feel back (after having missed pretty much all of last year, it should be expected that he would have a slow start) so I don't get this no value.

 

The guy brings a lot of value and he knows his role and excells in it. No team can have 9 superstars in its lineup, it needs all different types of guys to be a real good consistent lineup and the Darrin Erstad type fit in and can help winning teams (especially when he's healthy) and so far this year he's helped the Sox out a lot (the production they've gotten from him has been ridiculously helpful compared to what it got from BA last year).

Thank you, I agree 102%. Erstad has done everything he has been asked to do. We can go back and forth with current numbers, career numbers, etc, but all that matters is what he is doing now.

 

Sweeney in LF, Erstad in CF, and Dye in RF would be an above average defensive OF. If Dye starts producing at the plate, those 3 could put up some decent offensive numbers as well.