In two more days, fire sale talk will pick up

[caulfield12]

Yeah, now these were the over-reaction type threads I had been missing!

 

And how is our franchise better off because KW waited one year too long to do something?

 

He has been too patient, and it's going to set back our being a competitive team again by 1-2 years because he was too wishy-washy and didn't commit enough to winning last year, when it was our best shot to get it done and we still had a reservoir of good will with our fanbase.

 

Now he'll be preaching patience again, and he'll end up losing 25-33% of the season ticket base as a result...not quite as dramatic as Cleveland's fall in 2002-2003, as they had been selling out nearly every game.

 

We'll be back to the "real" White Sox fans and lose the bandwagon, but we'll be back in the $75-90 million payroll range in all likelihood, which is fine if you're the Twins or A's...and worked ONCE for the White Sox, 2005. But almost EVERYTHING has to go right in that situation, every acquisition, no injuries, no FA busts.

[BearSox]

the earliest a fire sale could happen is early-mid July. As some others have stated, the team is still relying on Thome and Hall coming back and producing. The pitching has been very good, but the offense has disappeared.

 

If Thome and Hall come back in a week or two, we could be in a good spot. When they come back, we could option Stavo and Terrero down, and keep Sweeney in LF where he belongs. If we can get a lineup like this:

 

1. Erstad, CF

2. Iguchi, 2B

3. Thome, DH

4. Konerko, 1B

5. Dye, RF

6. Pierzynski/Hall C

7. Crede, 3B

8. Uribe, SS

9. Sweeney, LF

 

and if this lineup can produce a 5 run average per game, and if the pitching continues to deal, we could make a big run.

[RockRaines]

The lineup was actually pretty good offensively last night. Stringing together hits, scrapping for contact.

 

If the pen didnt implode we win. Its as simple as that. It happens, its baseball.

[fathom]

The lineup was actually pretty good offensively last night. Stringing together hits, scrapping for contact.

 

It was one inning aided in large part by a terrible throwing error. Yes, AJP, Iguchi, and Crede all finally put on nice contact swings. Besides that one inning though, the offense was atrocious. I agree with you though, compared to other games this season, that inning was an offensive explosion.

[caulfield12]

It was one inning aided in large part by a terrible throwing error. Yes, AJP, Iguchi, and Crede all finally put on nice contact swings. Besides that one inning though, the offense was atrocious. I agree with you though, compared to other games this season, that inning was an offensive explosion.

 

 

Not to mention that we really played like crap those two games and got out of there 2-0 when we should have split or gone 0-2.

 

Our record pretty accurately reflects where we are, though. Capable of being a great bullpen, but results in the bottom 25% of MLB pens. A team that has won 8 of 9 games on the road by coming from behind (despite the offense), yet inconsistent. A team that can knock out Street, Duscherer, Shields and K-Rod but struggle to close out the Twins, no matter who you put in that uniform against the Sox.

[southsider2k5]

It was one inning aided in large part by a terrible throwing error. Yes, AJP, Iguchi, and Crede all finally put on nice contact swings. Besides that one inning though, the offense was atrocious. I agree with you though, compared to other games this season, that inning was an offensive explosion.

 

Why is it that anytime the Sox take advantage of a mistake, it is instantly discounted, but when another team does it, its just something that good teams do? That's a part of the game.

[fathom]

Why is it that anytime the Sox take advantage of a mistake, it is instantly discounted, but when another team does it, its just something that good teams do? That's a part of the game.

 

Did I not give credit to the three guys who had 2 out RBI? However, the offense still looked miserable last night. Every lineup seems like it's a split-squad team we're throwing out there.

[StrangeSox]

Why is it that anytime the Sox take advantage of a mistake, it is instantly discounted, but when another team does it, its just something that good teams do? That's a part of the game.

 

Its different when the Sox entire offense relies on having to take advantage of a mistake instead of being able to get runs themselves.

 

Nothing wrong with taking advantage of mistakes, but you need to be able to score runs without mistakes, too, or you'll end up 4th or 5th in your division.

[elrockinMT]

Thome and Hall will help and so will a hot streak. The Sox are very capable of reeling off a ten game winning streak and be on top. I just think it's too early to panic. Be mad at how the team is playing for sure, but don't buy into the gloom and doom stuff.

[BigSqwert]

The Sox are very capable of reeling off a ten game winning streak and be on top.

What have you seen in the last 100 regular season games that makes you think that would happen?

[harfman77]

There will be no firesale until at least the end of June when teams have a better idea if they are in contention and what they would need to move up into contention. The Sox are in no means out of anything even if they were 10 games out at this point. If you had a firesale now the only player that you would be sending out who could net his value would be Buerhle. Iguchi, Crede, and Dye have not been hitting well enough to make them worth trading.

[elrockinMT]

What have you seen in the last 100 regular season games that makes you think that would happen?

 

There is a history there and we have the talent. Capable is certainly the right word to use.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Yeah, now these were the over-reaction type threads I had been missing!

I'd hate to be in a foxhole with some of these guys.

 

How can a rational person go into a season supposedly with high hopes and then panic after the team plays .500 a month into the season??? The mark of a good team (and a good manager BTW) is how they weather the rough times that come to every team in almost every season. If these people think there is no way the Sox can overcome a .500 start with none of their hitters hitting and four and a half months to go they are just showing they have no understanding of a Major League Baseball season.

 

And one more thing about having a "Fire Sale." If the Sox continue to fall behind while guys like Dye, Iguchi, Crede, etc. are hitting and playing well, then it may make sense to white flag it and get a good return on some of these guys while their value is high. But as for now, trying to sell off guys who are batting .200 will get you nothing and it makes no sense when the team is playing .500 ball even while they are not producing.

 

Since the Sox have played .500 ball during a tough stretch of their schedule while their key guys are either injured or batting around .200, wouldn't anybody here want to see what they will do when these guys start hitting at their career norms before clamoring for a fire sale???

[caulfield12]

I'd hate to be in a foxhole with some of these guys.

 

How can a rational person go into a season supposedly with high hopes and then panic after the team plays .500 a month into the season??? The mark of a good team (and a good manager BTW) is how they weather the rough times that come to every team in almost every season. If these people think there is no way the Sox can overcome a .500 start with none of their hitters hitting and four and a half months to go they are just showing they have no understanding of a Major League Baseball season.

 

And one more thing about having a "Fire Sale." If the Sox continue to fall behind while guys like Dye, Iguchi, Crede, etc. are hitting and playing well, then it may make sense to white flag it and get a good return on some of these guys while their value is high. But as for now, trying to sell off guys who are batting .200 will get you nothing and it makes no sense when the team is playing .500 ball even while they are not producing.

 

Since the Sox have played .500 ball during a tough stretch of their schedule while their key guys are either injured or batting around .200, wouldn't anybody here want to see what they will do when these guys start hitting at their career norms before clamoring for a fire sale???

 

 

Nobody's clamoring for a fire sale...I'm just saying that it's likely to happen if we don't show some positive signs of breaking out of this, and soon.

 

Of course, Thome and Hall will help our offense.

 

And I wasn't optimistic about this season like I was last year. We all expected the playoffs coming into '06, I'm not sure anyone could confidently predict we'd get there this year based on our offseason moves and with a rookie 5th starter and aging Contreras.

 

Games like last night set the tone for the entire season....we will get up off the mat or we will lie down and get swept?

 

I think we all want to be patient, as long as it's feasible. But I think most posters here would like to see KW have a CLEAR direction to go in as June and July are upon us...as doing nothing and standing pat won't help us at all for next year, unless we're expecting Gio and Russell to be starters next year and still be able to contend.

 

Did Sox fans who realized we were dead in the water in August of last year WANT the Sox to lose? Or for Guillen to be fired? I hope not...it was just a sense that something was seriously missing, chemistry, fire, drive...was anyone surprised the last two months of 2006 and the first two months of 2007? If you've followed the White Sox, you've seen it coming.

 

We're getting old and it's catching up with Iguchi, Dye, Pods, Thome and Contreras in particular. Nothing can be done about it, besides transitioning to a younger, more athletic team, as quickly as possible...while hopefully still being a contender simultaneously.

[santo=dorf]

Can we sell off some of our posters to NSBB and Redszone.com?

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Nobody's clamoring for a fire sale...I'm just saying that it's likely to happen if we don't show some positive signs of breaking out of this, and soon.

No, two days ago you said "In two more days fire sale talk will pick up."

 

Can we sell off some of our posters to NSBB and Redszone.com?

Maybe in two more days, unless they start showing some positive signs.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

May 11, 2007

 

Rumor control: In a May 6 column by a national baseball writer for the Boston Globe, the idea was postulated concerning Mark Buehrle being part of some White Sox purge at the non-waiver trade deadline if the team fell out of contention. After all, Buehrle could leave in the offseason through free agency.

 

But on Friday, Williams scoffed at the notion that he would approach the White Sox with any other idea aside from making this group stronger.

 

"If I'm ever told to think in different terms, I don't know, it's going to be a little difficult," Williams said of being told to trade off important pieces of his squad. "I've always thought of adding to the puzzle, not taking away from the puzzle.

 

"We've positioned ourselves to where if something is missing or we have another injury and we have to go out in the market, we're in the position with some of the things we did last offseason to go ahead and be a player in whatever the market is at that point."

 

Baseball's current parity leaves Williams believing trades involving significant pitching or impact position players are not in the offing.

[caulfield12]

May 11, 2007

 

Rumor control: In a May 6 column by a national baseball writer for the Boston Globe, the idea was postulated concerning Mark Buehrle being part of some White Sox purge at the non-waiver trade deadline if the team fell out of contention. After all, Buehrle could leave in the offseason through free agency.

 

But on Friday, Williams scoffed at the notion that he would approach the White Sox with any other idea aside from making this group stronger.

 

"If I'm ever told to think in different terms, I don't know, it's going to be a little difficult," Williams said of being told to trade off important pieces of his squad. "I've always thought of adding to the puzzle, not taking away from the puzzle.

 

"We've positioned ourselves to where if something is missing or we have another injury and we have to go out in the market, we're in the position with some of the things we did last offseason to go ahead and be a player in whatever the market is at that point."

 

Baseball's current parity leaves Williams believing trades involving significant pitching or impact position players are not in the offing.

 

 

Seems kind of contradictory, the White Sox are in a position to do something big (supposedly) but nothing big is likely to happen...

 

 

 

No, two days ago you said "In two more days fire sale talk will pick up."

Maybe in two more days, unless they start showing some positive signs.

 

 

If you predicted the White Sox were going to have a 3.69 team ERA at this point in the season, I'd like to see where that appears.

 

The fact of the matter is we still are far from a playoff team. If not for the Royals handing us 3 games, our record could easily be 2 or 4 games under .500.

 

I think we can survive without Pods, but we need contributions from Thome and Hall for this offense to get corrected or there will be no way for us to keep up with DET and CLE, or the Yankees and Red Sox, for that matter.

[GreenSox]

Great at identifying undervalued major league players....horrible at finding AA and AAA talent, with the one exception being the slight chance he took on Bobby Jenks and picking up Jerry Owens from the Nationals for Alex Escobar.

 

If you look at 2002, you remember names like Barry/Berry, Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins, Onan Masaoka, Gary Majewski, the immortal Byeon Hak-An and Frank Francisco.

 

The two "stars" were Diaz and Adkins, and they disappointed mightily.

 

Francisco and Majewski would have been nice bullpen pieces had we kept them. In fact, we might have won in 2003 if Francisco was the closer for the entire season, instead of Koch. But he wasn't quite ready then, nor had he thrown any chairs or suffered a major injury.

The most talented AA/AAA players he's given up would have been "bullpen pieces" - that's pretty good.

Dont' forget how Kenny GOT Francisco in the first place....and Cotts....and Danks..... (the exception likely will be Chris Young).

 

We've got some AAA/AA pitchers...we need to package them for AAA/AA hitters

 

The Sox aren't selling off. Our pitching is too good for us NOT to be in the race..

[gosox41]

The most talented AA/AAA players he's given up would have been "bullpen pieces" - that's pretty good.

 

 

Or it's pretty bad depending on how you look at it. Because while KW hasn't given up more then null pieces in trades, what has the farm system produced under KW's reign that is currently helpinh the Sox in the ML level?

 

So good for KW for not overpaying in trades, but bad for KW in the fact that the Sox minor league system sucks.

 

 

 

Bob

[Kyyle23]

If you predicted the White Sox were going to have a 3.69 team ERA at this point in the season, I'd like to see where that appears.

 

The fact of the matter is we still are far from a playoff team. If not for the Royals handing us 3 games, our record could easily be 2 or 4 games under .500.

 

I think we can survive without Pods, but we need contributions from Thome and Hall for this offense to get corrected or there will be no way for us to keep up with DET and CLE, or the Yankees and Red Sox, for that matter.

 

LOL, it isnt about his prediction, it is about yours. You made the thread, its a long season and it was a bit premature. You should expect these types of reactions.

Edited May 12, 2007 by kyyle23

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(gosox41 @ May 12, 2007 -> 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or it's pretty bad depending on how you look at it. Because while KW hasn't given up more then null pieces in trades, what has the farm system produced under KW's reign that is currently helpinh the Sox in the ML level?

 

So good for KW for not overpaying in trades, but bad for KW in the fact that the Sox minor league system sucks.

Bob

Bob, honestly, who cares what our former prospects do? The Sox have ZERO, NONE, NADDA control over prospects once they go to another organization.

 

It's a double edged sword around here.

 

KW trades a prospect and he turns into something = dumb move by KW

KW trades a prospect and he turns into nothing = KW's farm system sucks.

 

Ever hear of talking a player up and selling high on him? How about trading away a player because there are some hidden medical reasons or character issues? You honestly think Beane gives a rat's ass how Neal Cotts has only had one great year and ERA's of 5 every other year? Does Walt Jocketty lose sleep at night because the three guys he gave up for McGwire haven't done s***?

Of course not.

[Kyyle23]

Bob, honestly, who cares what our former prospects do? The Sox have ZERO, NONE, NADDA control over prospects once they go to another organization.

 

It's a double edged sword around here.

 

KW trades a prospect and he turns into something = dumb move by KW

KW trades a prospect and he turns into nothing = KW's farm system sucks.

 

Ever hear of talking a player up and selling high on him? How about trading away a player because there are some hidden medical reasons or character issues? You honestly think Beane gives a rat's ass how Neal Cotts has only had one great year and ERA's of 5 every other year? Does Walt Jocketty lose sleep at night because the three guys he gave up for McGwire haven't done s***?

Of course not.

 

Preach on Brother!

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

This fire sale talk is a bunch of horses***. This team has the pitching working right now and all it's going to take is the bats heating up, which you know is going to happen, and this team can easily retake 1st place. I've never seen this level of pessimism over a team that has played like crap and is still 3 games over. Just wait till they bring their A game.

[caulfield12]

LOL, it isnt about his prediction, it is about yours. You made the thread, its a long season and it was a bit premature. You should expect these types of reactions.

 

 

Very well...and I'll continue to say that we're not in that top or elite group with Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, and possibly the Yankees and Angels. We're very similar to the A's, if I had to make a comparison.

 

I didn't think Minnesota would struggle this badly. They will give it another month, but they have the same issue with Torii Hunter we have with Buehrle and Dye.

 

Our offense is still the worst in the AL after the last 2/3rd's of a season. It's difficult to argue with that measuring stick. We're 4th in pitching, ERA-wise. I doubt we can be first, but we need to stay 3-5 in that area and get our hitting/runs scored somewhere around 7-10th in the AL to have any chance.

 

Are we closer to being an "elite" team or a rebuilding team? I would say the latter. It's unfortunate, because we have the makings of a great bullpen, to go with our strong starting pitching.

 

Crede, Konerko, Erstad, Dye and Iguchi have looked really bad recently. Iguchi, Crede and Konerko are all huge question marks to me. We can't win without at least two of those three guys hitting.

 

We don't have anything close to resembling prospects at SS or 2B. The jury's out on Anderson and Fields as well, at best. What we do have is lots of pitching prospects, and the more legit prospects you have, the higher the odds that one or two will actually make it and become members of the rotation. I'm encouraged that Honel seems to coming back onto the radar screen as a prospect, and Danks has impressed nearly everyone.

 

We went through a 167-95 stretch of play in 2005 and 2006 (until the All-Star break). We would have won 105 games last year if continued to play like we did in the first half (best offense in the AL). Obviously that didn't happen, for a number of reasons.

 

Since then, we're 51-56. That's an incredible drop-off in the level of play.

 

Which is the prevailing trend? Well, we'll find out in the next 6 weeks, but having KC simply hand us four games out of four doesn't mean we're a good team or that anything is "fixed."