Who wants Ozzie's head?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 9, 2007 -> 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's the manager's job to make strategical decisions, especially in close games, to help give his team the best chance to succeed. If he really thought that facing Morneau in that situation was the best option the Sox had, then unfortunately, he's about as bad of a manager as some of us believe. The Twins have two dangerous hitters right now, and he let both of them beat us in crucial situations. When every game is close like we've had, not only do you need good pitching and defense, but you also need good managing. He hasn't been as bad this year as he was last year, but last night was a poor performance by Ozzie.

Ozzie would have never had to face that decision if Tadahito could throw it to first base without pulling Paulie off the bag.

[CWSGuy406]

Yeah, but Sweeney is a ball player... the rest were athletes. Borchard - athlete. Anderson - athlete. etc.

 

So what you're saying is that the Sox shouldn't have drafted Frank Thomas? After all, he played football just like Borchard did and was an athlete...

 

BTW -- can we have a poll for what was the 'best' Ozzie moment of last night? I think you can put up three solid options...

 

-Intentionally walking... wait for it... Nick Punto.

 

-Matt Thorton can't get Josh Rabe out -- apparently -- so Ozzie brings in Aardsma. Gardenhire predictably responds by bringing in the hitter he wanted at the plate all along, Jason Kubel.

 

-Not walking Justin Morneau with -- again, wait for it -- Jeff Cirillo on deck.

 

What a pathetic all-around performance last night. Ye gods... We suck.

[fathom]

So what you're saying is that the Sox shouldn't have drafted Frank Thomas? After all, he played football just like Borchard did and was an athlete...

 

BTW -- can we have a poll for what was the 'best' Ozzie moment of last night? I think you can put up three solid options...

 

-Intentionally walking... wait for it... Nick Punto.

 

-Matt Thorton can't get Josh Rabe out -- apparently -- so Ozzie brings in Aardsma. Gardenhire predictably responds by bringing in the hitter he wanted at the plate all along, Jason Kubel.

 

-Not walking Justin Morneau with -- again, wait for it -- Jeff Cirillo on deck.

 

What a pathetic all-around performance last night. Ye gods... We suck.

 

Don't forget pitching to 21 game hit streak Hunter with an open base and 2 outs (and a great fastball hitter against a fastball pitcher) instead of going after Cuddyer, who looks terrible returning from injury.

[CWSGuy406]

Don't forget pitching to 21 game hit streak Hunter with an open base and 2 outs (and a great fastball hitter against a fastball pitcher) instead of going after Cuddyer, who looks terrible returning from injury.

 

As bad as those are, I can't help but laugh at the stupidity it takes to walk NICK f***ING PUNTO... And stupid intentional walks like that add up, because it means more at-bats for better hitters like Hunter and Morneau later in the game.

[StrangeSox]

Ozzie would have never had to face that decision if Tadahito could throw it to first base without pulling Paulie off the bag.

 

Doesn't matter. Ozzie still had to face this situation and failed.

 

It's like giving excuses to pitchers that can't pitch over errors.

 

As bad as those are, I can't help but laugh at the stupidity it takes to walk NICK f***ING PUNTO... And stupid intentional walks like that add up, because it means more at-bats for better hitters like Hunter and Morneau later in the game.

 

That's what makes Ozzie's managing a real head-scratcher. If he NEVER IBB'd guys, ok. I wouldn't agree with it, but at least he'd be consistent. But his moves contradict each other all the time and show no logical pattern.

Edited May 9, 2007 by StrangeSox

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ May 9, 2007 -> 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So the fact that he had a better batting average, more HRs, more RBIs, more walks, more runs, less strikeouts, and a better OBP last year as opposed to 2005 makes him similar to Tuffy Rhodes? Get a clue.

Your right. He is outstanding. I don't have a clue what I am talking about. He looks great in every game I watch him play.

 

 

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ May 9, 2007 -> 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't matter. Ozzie still had to face this situation and failed.

 

It's like giving excuses to hitters that can't pitch over errors.

Your right, but at the same time his players failed in situations they were faced with. But your right, lets fire the manager, we don't need better players.

 

hitters that can't pitch over errors?

[fathom]

Your right. He is outstanding. I don't have a clue what I am talking about. He looks great in every game I watch him play.

 

Iguchi has been horrible this year at the plate and in the field. He has no intensity, no bat speed, and his arm has been piss poor. He's going to have to step it up if he expects to get any sort of payday this offseason.

[StrangeSox]

Your right, but at the same time his players failed in situations they were faced with. But your right, lets fire the manager, we don't need better players.

 

hitters that can't pitch over errors?

 

I'd prefer both better players and a new manager, actually. I doubt either will happen.

 

hitters was a typo.

[BigSqwert]

Your right. He is outstanding. I don't have a clue what I am talking about. He looks great in every game I watch him play.

You stated that he has not done anything since 2005 and I proved that 2006 was a better year offensively for him. If you're talking about this year than yeah he is stinking up the joint...along with 99% of the rest of the hitters.

Edited May 9, 2007 by BigSqwert

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ May 9, 2007 -> 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what you're saying is that the Sox shouldn't have drafted Frank Thomas? After all, he played football just like Borchard did and was an athlete...

 

BTW -- can we have a poll for what was the 'best' Ozzie moment of last night? I think you can put up three solid options...

 

-Intentionally walking... wait for it... Nick Punto.

 

-Matt Thorton can't get Josh Rabe out -- apparently -- so Ozzie brings in Aardsma. Gardenhire predictably responds by bringing in the hitter he wanted at the plate all along, Jason Kubel.

 

-Not walking Justin Morneau with -- again, wait for it -- Jeff Cirillo on deck.

 

What a pathetic all-around performance last night. Ye gods... We suck.

Frank Thomas played one season as a TE for Auburn and was not very good or athletic. His athleticism is not the same as Borchard's or BA's

 

 

 

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ May 9, 2007 -> 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd prefer both better players and a new manager, actually. I doubt either will happen.

 

hitters was a typo.

That is the way good teams always get better right? A whole new coaching staff or a new manager. That always solves everything. I think you will find that a good organization keeps a staff together for a while and does not get trigger happy and fire someone at the first sign of disappointment. Then again the Cubs seem to be able to pick up the hot manager every 4 years. That seems to have been working out great for them, so maybe you are on to something here. Your right. Fire the manager. Get some new coaches in here!

[CWSGuy406]

Frank Thomas played one season as a TE for Auburn and was not very good or athletic.

 

Wikipedia says Thomas was a standout in both football and baseball. To even play one year at tight end at Auburn, I'd imagine you'd have to be fairly athletic. Saying Thomas "wasn't very athletic" isn't right...

 

And to disclude Sweeney from the 'athlete' group is stupid, too. From the looks of it, I'd say Sweeney is every bit the 'athlete' that Anderson is, if not moreso. If you want to say Sweeney has more baseball 'smarts' than Anderson, I guess that's reasonable, but I'm not sure how, as a scout, you project 'baseball smarts'.

[StrangeSox]

That is the way good teams always get better right? A whole new coaching staff or a new manager. That always solves everything. I think you will find that a good organization keeps a staff together for a while and does not get trigger happy and fire someone at the first sign of disappointment. Then again the Cubs seem to be able to pick up the hot manager every 4 years. That seems to have been working out great for them, so maybe you are on to something here. Your right. Fire the manager. Get some new coaches in here!

 

The Sox won the series in Guillen's second year. It was Walker's 3rd season. Cooper was around the organization for a long time, and he was in his 5th year. Harold Baines was in his 2nd year. So was Cora.

 

Seems like it was some relatively fresh guys (to their positions at least) that won it here.

 

I'm not saying that new coaches = winning, just showing that new coaches can win it all.

Edited May 9, 2007 by StrangeSox

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ May 9, 2007 -> 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Sox won the series in Guillen's second year. It was Walker's 3rd season. Cooper was around the organization for a long time, and he was in his 5th year.

 

Seems like it was some relatively fresh guys (to their positions at least) that won it here.

 

I'm not saying that new coaches = winning, just showing that new coaches can win it all.

 

2nd, 3rd, 5th = New? Yeah - you're right, I am agreeing with you. Fire them all and bring in the new. I can totally see your point of view.

 

 

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ May 9, 2007 -> 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wikipedia says Thomas was a standout in both football and baseball. To even play one year at tight end at Auburn, I'd imagine you'd have to be fairly athletic. Saying Thomas "wasn't very athletic" isn't right...

 

And to disclude Sweeney from the 'athlete' group is stupid, too. From the looks of it, I'd say Sweeney is every bit the 'athlete' that Anderson is, if not moreso. If you want to say Sweeney has more baseball 'smarts' than Anderson, I guess that's reasonable, but I'm not sure how, as a scout, you project 'baseball smarts'.

He didn't play, unless you have a different definition of play than I do. I never said he wasn't very athletic. I said that he isn't in the Borchard/Anderson athleticism category. When the hell did I not include Sweeney or even say he wasn't an athlete? Borchard, Thomas, and Anderson were being compared. Sweeney wasn't even in the conversation. I don't even know where this conversation is going anymore.

[StrangeSox]

2nd, 3rd, 5th = New? Yeah - you're right, I am agreeing with you. Fire them all and bring in the new. I can totally see your point of view.

 

2nd and 3rd? Yeah. And I updated it a little, so there were two more 2nd year guys. I clearly stated that Cooper had been with the organization for a long time and that he was in his fifth year as hitting coach.

 

And you must have a reading comprehension problem because I also clearly stated that new coaches doesn't equate to winning. I was refuting your claim that old coaching staffs lead to winning.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ May 9, 2007 -> 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2nd and 3rd? Yeah. And I updated it a little, so there were two more 2nd year guys. I clearly stated that Cooper had been with the organization for a long time and that he was in his fifth year as hitting coach.

 

And you must have a reading comprehension problem because I also clearly stated that new coaches doesn't equate to winning. I was refuting your claim that old coaching staffs lead to winning.

You are completely right on all accounts. 2nd, 3rd, and 5 year coaches = new. Clearly that is correct. Old coaching staffs do not lead to winning, exactly, I don't know what I was thinking. How could I even begin to debate these ideas. I was completely wrong in my way of thinking. How could I possibly have a different opinion than yours?

[caulfield12]

You are completely right on all accounts. 2nd, 3rd, and 5 year coaches = new. Clearly that is correct. Old coaching staffs do not lead to winning, exactly, I don't know what I was thinking. How could I even begin to debate these ideas. I was completely wrong in my way of thinking. How could I possibly have a different opinion than yours?

 

 

For those 50% of you trying to fire Ozzie today, who exactly do you want? Let me guess, the anti-Ozzie, so that means Joe Girardi, right? Someone who will bring "law and order" back to the Sox clubhouse...because that style works so well with the likes of AJ, Crede, Buehrle and Rowand?

 

Girardi is fine with a young team, just like Manuel was...but for a veteran team? If we're going to rebuild completely, I wouldn't be totally against it. But I would rather start over with the Twins' scouts and Ozzie as manager than with the Sox scouts and Gardenhire as manager.

[southsideirish]

I remember these same complaints about KW and Reinsdorf before we won the World Series. KW is not a winner and his trades suck. The David Wells trade blows. We gave up the great Kip Wells, Josh Fogg, and Sean Lowe for Todd Ritchie! Dude we got fleeced. Oh no, not again, we gave up Jeremy Reed and Miguel Olivo for Freddy Garcia? We will never win this thing with KW and Reinsdorf. Reinsdorf has to sell the team before we win anything. You mean we just let go of D'Angelo Jimenez for nothing? He was a winner! Jose Valentin is a winner! WE SUCK!

Then, just about 2 years later the White Sox are World Champions. Unbelievable, because Jerry still owns the team and KW is still the GM, so what changed?

Maybe our fans just suck and are whining complaining little sissy b****es that should leave the coaching and GMing to the people that know what they are doing and actually know their own players. I understand second guessing, but wanting and wishing for people to lose their jobs make some of you so called fans complete asswipes. I could even understand not liking a player because he sucks ass, but to not like a manager or coach because a player is not doing the job he usually does? That is a little messed up. Most of our guys that are struggling are proven good hitters. They are not hitting so the Sox are not winning. It has very little, if anything, to do with the manager and coaches. They are not on the field hitting, pitching, and fielding.

 

 

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ May 9, 2007 -> 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For those 50% of you trying to fire Ozzie today, who exactly do you want? Let me guess, the anti-Ozzie, so that means Joe Girardi, right? Someone who will bring "law and order" back to the Sox clubhouse...because that style works so well with the likes of AJ, Crede, Buehrle and Rowand?

 

Girardi is fine with a young team, just like Manuel was...but for a veteran team? If we're going to rebuild completely, I wouldn't be totally against it. But I would rather start over with the Twins' scouts and Ozzie as manager than with the Sox scouts and Gardenhire as manager.

Girardi would never take this job. I totally agree with you on the scouting, but then we also have to change our whole philosophy of the type of player we are looking for and the way the kids are taught/coached in the minors.

[CWSGuy406]

He didn't play, unless you have a different definition of play than I do. I never said he wasn't very athletic. I said that he isn't in the Borchard/Anderson athleticism category.

 

The Sweeney comment wasn't directed at you, but the original poster who I quoted. Ignore that.

 

Also -- you did say he wasn't very athletic.

 

Frank Thomas played one season as a TE for Auburn and was not very good or athletic.

 

Also, this from Answers.com:

 

In the autumn of 1986, Thomas accepted a scholarship to play football at Auburn University.

 

...

 

The [Pan American] Games coincided with the beginning of football practice back at Auburn, so he left the Pan Am team and returned to college--only to be injured twice in early season football games.

 

So I guess you're half right. He didn't play, but it looks moreso due to injury. Either way, I think you'll be hard pressed to find many players with more strength them Thomas (looks) to have had coming out of college. But now I think we're just getting into semantics of what an athlete is, so...

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ May 9, 2007 -> 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Sweeney comment wasn't directed at you, but the original poster who I quoted. Ignore that.

 

Also -- you did say he wasn't very athletic.

 

 

 

Also, this from Answers.com:

 

 

 

So I guess you're half right. He didn't play, but it looks moreso due to injury. Either way, I think you'll be hard pressed to find many players with more strength them Thomas (looks) to have had coming out of college. But now I think we're just getting into semantics of what an athlete is, so...

I never said he wasn't strong. He was huge and I was a fan of his from an early age, but that does not make him athletic. You have to be somewhat athletic to even get to a college football team or baseball team. I am not doubting his athleticism. I am just saying it is not in the Borch/BA area.

[StrangeSox]

You are completely right on all accounts. 2nd, 3rd, and 5 year coaches = new. Clearly that is correct. Old coaching staffs do not lead to winning, exactly, I don't know what I was thinking. How could I even begin to debate these ideas. I was completely wrong in my way of thinking. How could I possibly have a different opinion than yours?

 

Yeah, that's clearly not what I said. At all.

 

Thanks for confirming your severe reading comprehension problems.

Edited May 9, 2007 by StrangeSox

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ May 9, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that's clearly not what I said. At all.

 

Thanks for confirming your severe reading comprehension problems.

Again, correct! I like agreeing with you.

You're welcome.

Edited May 9, 2007 by southsideirish

[Dick Allen]

First off, there is no way Ozzie is going anywhere unless he says something really stupid, or he quits. He actually had a very mature comment about drinking in the clubhouse the other day. I question his strategy quite often. I actually missed most of yesterday's game. I saw it when it was 4-1 and then when it was tied. As far as removing Vazquez, I don't think anyone should have a problem with that. He cruises along a lot, but when he loses it, it goes fast. The bullpen is for the most part, very inexperienced, and most have had control issues most of their careers. Aardsma wouldn't have been available if he had total command of his pitches. If Sisco could put the ball where he wanted, Ross Gload wouldn't have been close to enough to bring him over here. These guys are going to be awful some nights. I was pretty stunned this winter when the bullpen was assembled reading the board. It appeared the consensus was everyone throws 95+ and will be unhittable. I really was trying to figure how that could be projected. Melton was on after the game and made an interesting observation. Even when they are not giving up runs, a few of the bullpen guys are really struggling, and that will take its toll eventually. For my money though the reason the Sox lost last night, and the reason they are not undefeated this year is because of Greg Walker. I think if the Sox had any other hitting coach, Bud Selig would probably have given JR the permission to print playoff tickets about 10 days ago.