2nd Baseman Options 2008

[DBAHO]

Burke would be nice, but even he's no guarantee. He'd be an upgrade defensively and you can probably get by with him for a year or two, but I can't see him doing that much better than his line of last year (.276/.347/.418). He seems logical to go after, though -- he'd improve the Sox' bench this season and would give the Sox a reasonably decent 2B option for next year if something better doesn't present itself.

I agree on acquiring Burke if the chance's there. I mean he makes sense to me right now over having a Rob Mackowiak or Alex Cintron on the bench. Burke can play 2B and any OF spot, and Ozuna's been used a few times at SS IIRC.

 

Burke's OBP is pretty solid, and I think he's got more room to grow in the future, hence why I think he'd be a good investment, instead of acquiring an older player like Castillo.

 

Of course this is if we decide to leave Iguchi leave, which at this stage looks to be the case unless he can turn things around (which I think he still will).

 

Depends on what the Astros asking price is though. Anyone dreaming of a Lidge + Burke deal here?

[whitesoxfan101]

Getz makes himself more intriguing by the day. If he finishes the year hitting around where he is right now, you have to consider him IMO.

[GoodAsGould]

Ideally we could sign Ichiro, Hunter, and one of Grudz/Castillo. For the money to be available for all that well Grudz/Castillo are basicly going to be a wash with what we pay for Iguchi now. Hunter im figuring gets around 8-9 million so getting rid of Dye and Pods contracts cover that. Now im thinking Ichiro gets close to 15 million a year, so losing one of Buerhle or Contreras will cover a large portion of that, plus most people think that Mackowiak and Crede will both be gone so combined those 2 with what one of Contreras/Buehrle are making you got the 15 million.

 

Batting order:

RF:Ichiro

2B:Grudz/Castillo

DH:Thome

1B:Konerko

CF:Hunter

C:Pieryznski

LF:Sweeney

SS:Uribe

3B:Fields

 

Starting rotation:

1. Buehrle/Conteras

2. Jon Garland

3. Javier Vazquez

4. Jon Danks

5. Floyd/Gio/Broadway/etc.

 

 

 

 

I dont know what the f/a for SP's look like so not sure if we will bring someone in or not and I dont know what kind of contract Buehrle will catch if resigning him will even be possible.

[GoSox05]

Its good to see alot of 2B fee agents that means we should get a good one for a good price.

 

I'd like to Mark Grudzilankiafl

[caulfield12]

Ideally we could sign Ichiro, Hunter, and one of Grudz/Castillo. For the money to be available for all that well Grudz/Castillo are basicly going to be a wash with what we pay for Iguchi now. Hunter im figuring gets around 8-9 million so getting rid of Dye and Pods contracts cover that. Now im thinking Ichiro gets close to 15 million a year, so losing one of Buerhle or Contreras will cover a large portion of that, plus most people think that Mackowiak and Crede will both be gone so combined those 2 with what one of Contreras/Buehrle are making you got the 15 million.

 

Batting order:

RF:Ichiro

2B:Grudz/Castillo

DH:Thome

1B:Konerko

CF:Hunter

C:Pieryznski

LF:Sweeney

SS:Uribe

3B:Fields

 

Starting rotation:

1. Buehrle/Conteras

2. Jon Garland

3. Javier Vazquez

4. Jon Danks

5. Floyd/Gio/Broadway/etc.

I dont know what the f/a for SP's look like so not sure if we will bring someone in or not and I dont know what kind of contract Buehrle will catch if resigning him will even be possible.

 

Acquiring Hunter next year would be like another team acquiring Dye as a FA after the 2006 season, only teams would be paying $12-15 million for Dye, not the $17 million the White Sox have paid for three years of his service. It would be a monumental gamble, and he's going to be making closer to $12-13 million, not $8-9. He will slot in after Andruw Jones and Ichiro.

 

There's a high risk of overpaying for someone who looks to be ready to enter a period of declining performance. The guy has played half his career on that ridiculously hard artificial turf. And signing Ichiro or Hunter or even Jones makes the team old and continues our march towards bottoming out, not rebuilding.

 

The Royals have an option on Grudzielanek, so forget that notion.

 

If you deal Contreras and don't re-sign Buehrle, there will be room to sign either Hunter OR Ichiro, but not both. And Crede is a lost cause right now. And signing either Ichiro OR Hunter and LOSING one or two of our best pitchers is going to make us a .500 team, not a playoff contender. Ichiro hasn't been enough to get the M's to the playoffs the last 4-5 years, even with Beltre, Sexson, Ibanez, etc.

[GoodAsGould]

Acquiring Hunter next year would be like another team acquiring Dye as a FA after the 2006 season, only teams would be paying $12-15 million for Dye, not the $17 million the White Sox have paid for three years of his service. It would be a monumental gamble, and he's going to be making closer to $12-13 million, not $8-9. He will slot in after Andruw Jones and Ichiro.

 

There's a high risk of overpaying for someone who looks to be ready to enter a period of declining performance. The guy has played half his career on that ridiculously hard artificial turf. And signing Ichiro or Hunter or even Jones makes the team old and continues our march towards bottoming out, not rebuilding.

 

The Royals have an option on Grudzielanek, so forget that notion.

 

If you deal Contreras and don't re-sign Buehrle, there will be room to sign either Hunter OR Ichiro, but not both. And Crede is a lost cause right now. And signing either Ichiro OR Hunter and LOSING one or two of our best pitchers is going to make us a .500 team, not a playoff contender. Ichiro hasn't been enough to get the M's to the playoffs the last 4-5 years, even with Beltre, Sexson, Ibanez, etc.

 

No way is signing Hunter the cost of what Dye would of got if he was a f/a. Dye had an MVP type season Hunter has never gotten close to that. Andrew Jones is so much better its not even fair to compare those 2. No way does Hunter get a contract over 10 million unless the yanks/redsox are involved with it. And we wouldnt lose 2 of our starters, but 1 of them is w/out doubt going to be gone no matter if we sign Hunter or not.

[whitesoxfan101]

I really am amazed at the lack of common sense people are using in this thread. Hunter's contract would be an albatross for, at minimum, the last 2 years of it, and we simply can't afford to have a deal that bad. He is hitting better than ever yes, but his defense has been on a gradual downturn for a few years now and he is aging. I'm also scared of Ichiro for the exact same reasons. Letting Dye go and acquiring Ichiro or Hunter is going out of the frying pan and into the fire IMO.

[RME JICO]

I really am amazed at the lack of common sense people are using in this thread. Hunter's contract would be an albatross for, at minimum, the last 2 years of it, and we simply can't afford to have a deal that bad. He is hitting better than ever yes, but his defense has been on a gradual downturn for a few years now and he is aging. I'm also scared of Ichiro for the exact same reasons. Letting Dye go and acquiring Ichiro or Hunter is going out of the frying pan and into the fire IMO.

There are a ton of FA options this offseason other than Ichiro and Hunter. The age thing is a concern with both of them, especially for the price. If the Sox want to go cheaper and younger, Rowand, Byrnes, Nixon, or Patterson might be available.

[Balta1701]

I really am amazed at the lack of common sense people are using in this thread. Hunter's contract would be an albatross for, at minimum, the last 2 years of it, and we simply can't afford to have a deal that bad. He is hitting better than ever yes, but his defense has been on a gradual downturn for a few years now and he is aging. I'm also scared of Ichiro for the exact same reasons. Letting Dye go and acquiring Ichiro or Hunter is going out of the frying pan and into the fire IMO.

I'd also like to add that I think people are seriously underestimating the amount of Free Agent Salary inflation that went on last offseason. There are probably going to be even more teams with money to burn this offseason than last, and a better crop of players to spend it on. I think a lot of the estimates being thrown out are going to be proven to be way on the low side, just as they were the last 2 years.

[hitlesswonder]

I'd also like to add that I think people are seriously underestimating the amount of Free Agent Salary inflation that went on last offseason. There are probably going to be even more teams with money to burn this offseason than last, and a better crop of players to spend it on. I think a lot of the estimates being thrown out are going to be proven to be way on the low side, just as they were the last 2 years.

 

Agreed. Unless the Sox move Contreras and Garland (along with dumping Buehrle, Dye, and Iguchi) they simply won't have the money to sign an impact free agent.

 

In any case Williams has stated the organization is philosophically opposed to spending on FAs because they don't like the market prices. My prediction: the Sox sign Rowand and that's it for FAs. They've committed to building through young players -- they want to be the Twins. Unfortunately, they don't have the Twins minor league system, manager, or GM.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ May 14, 2007 -> 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

remember when I kept getting laughed at when I was calling Placido Polanco the solution to our problems at 2B back in '04. Oh how times change.

So you still think a guy who doesn't walk, doesn't hit for power, doesn't strikeout, and ends up with a sub .700 OPS is worth $6 million a year? If that's the case, we should pick up Erstad's option right now and move him to second.

 

Of course nothing significant has happened to the Sox since 2004 either.

Edited May 15, 2007 by santo=dorf

[GoodAsGould]

Idonno its hard to say for sure what we will/should do this off-season. I just think we should w/out a doubt open up next season with a new starting 2B and a new starting CF.

[Balta1701]

Agreed. Unless the Sox move Contreras and Garland (along with dumping Buehrle, Dye, and Iguchi) they simply won't have the money to sign an impact free agent.

 

In any case Williams has stated the organization is philosophically opposed to spending on FAs because they don't like the market prices. My prediction: the Sox sign Rowand and that's it for FAs. They've committed to building through young players -- they want to be the Twins. Unfortunately, they don't have the Twins minor league system, manager, or GM.

I think that the Sox would have the money to sign an impact FA without dumping Garland if, and this is a big If...Anderson, Fields, Sweeney, and 1 of the rookie pitchers could come up next year and take places. Buehrle's $+ Dye's $ + Crede's $ + Erstad's $ + Podsednik's $ together come to about $25 million next year.

 

If you replace that with 4 guys making the league minimum, then even with the salary increases to guys like Uribe, Thome, and some of the folks in the bullpen, then the Sox still would have something on the order of $20 million left over to make a run at someone. That could be spent on a big name guy to play LF and resigning Iguchi, if that's what we wanted to do. But that all depends on our youth actually showing up.

[GreatScott82]

Here would be my top 3 targets.

1) Luis Castillo- A great defender and a perfect #2 hitter. I've been wanting him on the Sox for a long time.

2) Grudzy- He helped the Cubs get there in 2003 and I believe he was with the Cards in 2004 and 05 as well. He is a big reason his teams succeed and he is a big reason the Royals don't suck AS BAD. He would also be a good #2 hitter.

3) Re-sign Gooch- He is proving that he is not much of a 6 or 7 hole hitter but he can play steady defense and when he's hot in the 2 hole with a HEALTHY leadoff guy in front of him, he can get the job done with the rest of them.

[GreatScott82]

I think that the Sox would have the money to sign an impact FA without dumping Garland if, and this is a big If...Anderson, Fields, Sweeney, and 1 of the rookie pitchers could come up next year and take places. Buehrle's $+ Dye's $ + Crede's $ + Erstad's $ + Podsednik's $ together come to about $25 million next year.

 

If you replace that with 4 guys making the league minimum, then even with the salary increases to guys like Uribe, Thome, and some of the folks in the bullpen, then the Sox still would have something on the order of $20 million left over to make a run at someone. That could be spent on a big name guy to play LF and resigning Iguchi, if that's what we wanted to do. But that all depends on our youth actually showing up.

With that $20 million left over i say the Sox use $12 million/season and re-sign Buehrle. Which would leave $8million and that money can be used to sign a solid 2B like Castillo.

What about our outfield situations? Well call me crazy but I would put Sweeney out in RF, Anderson out in CF and just sign Erstad to another 1 year cheap deal to play LF. And if Anderson once again sucks it up behind the plate in 2008 just trade for Rowand!

[Balta1701]

What about our outfield situations? Well call me crazy but I would put Sweeney out in RF, Anderson out in CF and just sign Erstad to another 1 year cheap deal to play LF. And if Anderson once again sucks it up behind the plate in 2008 just trade for Rowand!

Erstad will either be making $6 million with the White Sox or he won't be with the White Sox next year. For the Sox to actually want him back, he'll have to get his 600 or so plate appearances and actually perform in them without getting hurt, at which point his option will increase up to $6 mil. If he gets hurt or his performance drops down to Konerko/Dye levels, then he'd be cheaper, but why would you want him back if he can't stay healthy here?

[CanOfCorn]

Unless the Astros are INCREDIBLY high on Brooks Conrad, currently their second baseman in Round Rock, which I don't think they are, then we probably aren't going to get Burke. I know they sent him down, but I think he is the long term answer for them at 2B. He is a Biggio clone, moved around early in his career, but I have a feeling once he is starting full-time at his natural position, he will be a .300 hitter with 10-15 hrs and 20 sb.

[AddisonStSox]

I normally pay no mind to these sorts of threads, but, it's an off-day of sorts and I'll play along.

 

Assessing the team as it is currently construed, I think a 2008 roster including the following players is realistic given the White Sox front office's spending tendencies and general baseball philosophies. At this point, I would also add that the following roster resembles a roster I would like to see take the field in 2008.

 

C-Pierzynski

C-Toby Hall

1B-Paul Konerko

DH/1B-Jim Thome

2B-Tadahito Iguchi

SS-Juan Uribe

SS/2B-Alex Cintron

3B-Josh Fields

3B-Pablo Ozuna

LF-Ryan Sweeney

CF-Darin Erstad

RF-Ichiro Suzuki

OF/Utl-

OF/Utl-

 

SP-Mark Buehlre

SP-Jose Contreras

SP-Javier Vazquez

SP-John Danks

SP-Open Competition (Masset, Sisco, Gonzalez, Broadway, etc.)/Cheap Free Agent Signing

 

CP-Bobby Jenks

RP-Mike MacDougal

RP-Matt Thornton

RP-Matt Sisco

RP-David Aardsma

RP-Nick Masset

 

-------------------------------------

 

So, that assumes Jon Garland, Joe Crede, and Jermaine Dye will not be a part of the 2008 roster--the return on both the Garland and Crede moves are irrelevant for the purposes of this exercise.

 

Some of the logic used to come to those conclusions:

-Williams re-signs Buehrle to a historic White Sox pitching contract and Jon Garland and the $11M contract he possess becomes a financial burden and has to be moved off the books.

-Jermaine Dye is not a part of this franchise beyond the 2007 season, this is something I think we can all agree with. Ichiro, along with Buehrle, is the big off-season splash and is an essential piece of the puzzle (proven everyday RF and lead-off hitter).

-Crede, like Garland, is moved to make room for Fields and rid the White Sox of his contract--I wish this team could have a $170M payroll, but that is just not going to happen.

-Mackowiak moved in the off-season for spare parts or minor league talent--his salary becomes a problem given the Ichiro and Buehrle signings.

-Iguchi, the starting 2B, was had on the cheap following a disappointing season and is immediately penciled in at the two-hole following Ichiro.

 

If any of the payroll aficionados could estimate the payroll for the aforementioned roster it would be greatly appreciated. What I think you will find is that this conjectured roster and its correlating payroll will be strikingly similar to the payroll of 2007 and therefore more realistic than you might think.

 

Do I think that is a perfect lineup or even a probable lineup? No. But, I think it is something you might see as the White Sox once again find themselves in limbo between a complete rebuilding and a veteran/win-now roster.

[Kalapse]

C-Pierzynski - $5.5M

C-Toby Hall - $1.75M

1B-Paul Konerko - $12M

DH/1B-Jim Thome - ~$7M

2B-Tadahito Iguchi - $4M

SS-Juan Uribe - $5M

SS/2B-Alex Cintron - $2M

3B-Josh Fields - $400K

3B-Pablo Ozuna - $1.05M

LF-Ryan Sweeney - $400K

CF-Darin Erstad - $6M

RF-Ichiro Suzuki - $15M

OF/Utl- $500K

OF/Utl- $500K

-------

~$61.1M

-------

SP-Mark Buehlre - $15M

SP-Jose Contreras - $10M

SP-Javier Vazquez - $11.5M

SP-John Danks - $400K

SP-Open Competition - $400K

-------

~37.3M

-------

CP-Bobby Jenks - $400K

RP-Mike MacDougal - $1.95M

RP-Matt Thornton - $875K

RP-Matt Sisco - $400K

RP-David Aardsma - $400K

RP-Nick Masset - $400K

-------

~$4.425M

-------

TOTAL = 102.835M

2007 = $96.4M

[AddisonStSox]

Thanks, Kalapse, I knew you would come through. I think you are spot-on with the Buehrle assessment and I know you are spot-on with all the current players, so I bet you are correct within a couple million dollars in either direction.

 

Some areas that may deflate the projection:

 

-Will Iguchi receive $4M on the open-market given his current pace? Probably not. However, he may receive $4M and Williams may very well give it to him considering the contract will be for less than three years and there appears to be at least one viable middle-infield prospect in Getz a season or two away.

 

-How about Ichiro for $15M per? Perhaps. His 2007 statistics may not merit $15M per season, but considering his skill-set and the needs of the White Sox, this is one player I could see Williams overpaying for.

 

-Having both Sweeney and Fields in the lineup looks like a necessity to me; and plugging in one or two farm-grown position-players every other year seems like a requirement for being considered a competitive and financially-sound organization on a year-to-year basis. It all works if both Sweeney and Fields are up and producing; otherwise, this is not the route to go and you can tear this projection to threads.

 

Well done, Kalapse.

[GoodAsGould]

Is Darin Erstad going to be worth 6 million? thats the only thing I'm not exactly sure about. Especially since Ichiro will be taking over as leadoff guy and Tadahito doesn't seem to be successful out of the 2 spot.

[AddisonStSox]

Is Darin Erstad going to be worth 6 million? thats the only thing I'm not exactly sure about. Especially since Ichiro will be taking over as leadoff guy and Tadahito doesn't seem to be successful out of the 2 spot.

 

Answer: no.

 

But, we all know Williams' (and apparently Hawk as well who feels Erstad is the best center-fielder since Willie Mays) love affair with Erstad and he would be one more veteran on the roster--something Ozzie, as well as Williams, appears to fancy.

 

If the Sox could live with paying Erstad $6M for one more season's worth of proven work, I could.

 

But, to answer your question: is Erstad worth $6M? No, he is not.

 

That sort of lineup also becomes possible because Williams is a bit ahead of the curve on bullpen talent.

 

He made concerted efforts to acquire young, inexpensive, promising talent over the past two seasons that I believe will pay dividends in the near future. While others will be paying upwards of $4M for Howry and Eyre-type talent, Williams will be able to plug in similar production for a fraction of the cost.

 

As I've said, Williams was ahead of the curve on this one and I suspect you will see many, many other organization emulate the Sox franchise in this regard.

[Kalapse]

Thanks, Kalapse, I knew you would come through. I think you are spot-on with the Buehrle assessment and I know you are spot-on with all the current players, so I bet you are correct within a couple million dollars in either direction.

 

Some areas that may deflate the projection:

 

-Will Iguchi receive $4M on the open-market given his current pace? Probably not. However, he may receive $4M and Williams may very well give it to him considering the contract will be for less than three years and there appears to be at least one viable middle-infield prospect in Getz a season or two away.

 

-How about Ichiro for $15M per? Perhaps. His 2007 statistics may not merit $15M per season, but considering his skill-set and the needs of the White Sox, this is one player I could see Williams overpaying for.

 

-Having both Sweeney and Fields in the lineup looks like a necessity to me; and plugging in one or two farm-grown position-players every other year seems like a requirement for being considered a competitive and financially-sound organization on a year-to-year basis. It all works if both Sweeney and Fields are up and producing; otherwise, this is not the route to go and you can tear this projection to threads.

 

Well done, Kalapse.

The $4M figure is probably pretty damn close. Even if he has a poor year he's not going to be this bad. At the least I could see him pulling in $3M and that's if he's .260/.320/.400 which is about the worst worst case scenario for him this season IMO.

 

Given Ichiro's name recognition, reputation, global and general commercial appeal as well as his past, present and projected future production I see Ichiro pulling in $14M-$16M a year after this season. He's going to put up atleast .310/.360/.420/.780 this season and probably better no matter how much he's struggling right now. I doubt he gets any less than $56M even being 33 years old.

[GreatScott82]

I would much rather keep Garland over Contreras due to the age difference. And im sure KW could get some solid prospects in return for the veteran. I do see the Buerhle signing happening as well. He is like Paul Konerko. Those two guys are the leaders and faces of this franchise. Snagging Ichiru would be amazing. KW is also fascinated with A-Rod. Remember he tried to get him back in 2000... So if the Ichiru thing doesn't go down, look for KW to make a strong push at signing A-Rod. You can get him probably for about $16-18 mill/season.

So if you replace Iguchi with Castillo. Ichiru with A-Rod. And Garland with Contreras. You would probably go up about $8-10 mill in payroll to put the team at about ~$110 million for 2008.

 

C-Pierzynski - $5.5M

C-Toby Hall - $1.75M

1B-Paul Konerko - $12M

DH/1B-Jim Thome - ~$7M

2B-Luis Castillo - $6M

SS-Juan Uribe - $5M

SS/2B-Alex Cintron - $2M

3B-Alex Rodriquez - $17

3B-Pablo Ozuna - $1.05M

LF-Darin Erstad - $6M

CF-Brian Anderson -$400K

RF-Ryan Sweeney -$400K

OF/Utl- $500K

OF/Utl- $500K

-------

~$65.1M

-------

SP-Mark Buehlre - $15M

SP-Jon Garland - $11M

SP-Javier Vazquez - $11.5M

SP-John Danks - $400K

SP-Open Competition - $400K

-------

~38.3M

-------

CP-Bobby Jenks - $400K

RP-Mike MacDougal - $1.95M

RP-Matt Thornton - $875K

RP-Matt Sisco - $400K

RP-David Aardsma - $400K

RP-Nick Masset - $400K

-------

~$4.425M

-------

TOTAL = 107.825M

2007 = $96.4M

 

Starting Lineup:

Luis Castillo 2B

Darin Erstad LF

Alex Rodriguez 3B

Jim Thome DH

Paul Konerko 1B

AJ Pierzynski C

Juan Uribe SS

Ryan Sweeney RF

Brian Anderson CF

 

NOW THIS TEAM WOULD BE HELLA FUN TO WATCH!!

And to sweeten things up a bit how about KW pulls a rabbit out of his hat and manages to snag Ervin Santana for Joe Crede and two of our top pitching prospects. I know the Angels have been wanting Crede for years! Okay now im just getting carried away... but i do think KW will be pretty active this offseason.

Go Sox!!

[RME JICO]

The $4M figure is probably pretty damn close. Even if he has a poor year he's not going to be this bad. At the least I could see him pulling in $3M and that's if he's .260/.320/.400 which is about the worst worst case scenario for him this season IMO.

Yeah if Uribe is getting $5 in 2008 and AJ is getting $5.5, it hard to see Iguchi getting more than either of them. The most I could see for him would be $4.5 based on the other players salaries. I don't think he would take a pay cut from $3.25. The range will probably be between $3.5 and $4.5, so your initially estimate is spot on.

 

Also, it may be better to keep Garland instead of Contreras due to the age factor. Another option I see as a possibility is Rowand in place of Erstad in 2008.