Senators Reach Immigration Bill Compromise

[Jenksismyhero]

Excellent article. I agree with everything he said.

[Texsox]

Heck you can take that a step further and even start to figure out that these people probably aren't going to pay in nearly what they get out of the system. If these people are indeed coming to in to work our "unwanted" and lowpaying jobs, SSI is only taxed at 7.65% of income. So for someone who is even earning as much as $10 an hour and working fulltime, they are only paying in just under $1600 a year in FICA. [$10X40hrs/wkX52wks)times 0.0765.] So in other words if they work 10 years in the system, they will take out more than the spend in about 13 months, and that is only if they are single and have no dependants. If you take the highend earning potential of $2312 then it takes just under 7 months to become a net earner on the SSI program. Now starting taking that math times millions, and tell me how it does not place a huge new burden on the system?

 

OK, so "these people" don't come in, Who works these jobs and doesn't cause the same problem?

[southsider2k5]

OK, so "these people" don't come in, Who works these jobs and doesn't cause the same problem?

 

I know the arguement is OMG who will do these jobs, but I think it is hilarious that all of these illegal activities can be excused just for that reason. What is wrong with actually setting a real plan for legal migrants to work in the US? I know it is easiest to sit and snipe at those who disagree with you, but are you telling me if I broke into your house, took stuff from you, and then claimed it was my house because I was there, you wouldn't have a problem with it as long as I did the dishes? If so you all can send me your addresses.

[Texsox]

I know the arguement is OMG who will do these jobs, but I think it is hilarious that all of these illegal activities can be excused just for that reason. What is wrong with actually setting a real plan for legal migrants to work in the US? I know it is easiest to sit and snipe at those who disagree with you, but are you telling me if I broke into your house, took stuff from you, and then claimed it was my house because I was there, you wouldn't have a problem with it as long as I did the dishes? If so you all can send me your addresses.

 

You are missing my point, Who will work these jobs AND not create the financial burden that you outlined? Take away all the illegals and replace them with our kids. Wouldn't the financial burden be the same for all the government benefits?

 

How does replacing these workers with our children reduce the cost of government benefits? I don't see unemployment rates dropping much. Built into those rates are professionals between jobs, etc. An accountant isn't going to work for a landscaper while trying to find another accounting job.

 

I'm just not seeing the cost of government benefits being important in this debate, The only way to avoid the increased government cost is to continue using illegal labor and that is wrong and should not be tolerated,

 

Not sniping, just trying to understand how you are arguing that by making illegals legal that will bankrupt the system but somehow replacing those illegals with other legal workers will not.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I know the arguement is OMG who will do these jobs, but I think it is hilarious that all of these illegal activities can be excused just for that reason. What is wrong with actually setting a real plan for legal migrants to work in the US? I know it is easiest to sit and snipe at those who disagree with you, but are you telling me if I broke into your house, took stuff from you, and then claimed it was my house because I was there, you wouldn't have a problem with it as long as I did the dishes? If so you all can send me your addresses.

 

So since you just reiterated that you support all 12 million being deported and didn't directly answer the question, who does take over the jobs that they occupy without being a "burden"?

 

I just find it funny that some people might somehow think that the goverment wants to keep them here out of the kindness and generosity of their hearts when it's obvious they would only want to do so if it makes the most sense economically. Personally, I'm less excited about hearing about 120 billion more tax dollars going into a war that doesn't make a whole lot of sense than about an immigrant working and getting social security.

[kapkomet]

So since you just reiterated that you support all 12 million being deported and didn't directly answer the question, who does take over the jobs that they occupy without being a "burden"?

 

I just find it funny that some people might somehow think that the goverment wants to keep them here out of the kindness and generosity of their hearts when it's obvious they would only want to do so if it makes the most sense economically. Personally, I'm less excited about hearing about 120 billion more tax dollars going into a war that doesn't make a whole lot of sense than about an immigrant working and getting social security.

I guaran-damn-tee that the immagrants will cost the country WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

AAY more then the Iraq war. Don't even have to bat an eye at that one.

[EvilMonkey]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0507/4166.html

"When they put out that deadline, people realized that we were going to lose," said an aide to an anti-war lawmaker. "Everything after that seemed like posturing." That move gave Bush the upper hand in negotiations, the aide said, since it allowed him to wait out the Democrats while continuing to oppose attaching more restraints on the funds.

 

I wonder if Moveon.org realizes the irony in the wording here as it relates to Bush's stance on timetables.

[southsider2k5]

So since you just reiterated that you support all 12 million being deported and didn't directly answer the question, who does take over the jobs that they occupy without being a "burden"?

 

I just find it funny that some people might somehow think that the goverment wants to keep them here out of the kindness and generosity of their hearts when it's obvious they would only want to do so if it makes the most sense economically. Personally, I'm less excited about hearing about 120 billion more tax dollars going into a war that doesn't make a whole lot of sense than about an immigrant working and getting social security.

 

Funny, no one seems to want to answer any of my questions anyway, instead just asking more questions. But that's OK.

[NorthSideSox72]

This whole "who will do the jobs" argument just entirely misses the point no one (well, almost no one) is saying we shouldn't allow some immigration into the country from Mexico and everywhere else. Its part of what's great about this country's history. The point is, for lots of reasons, you don't just let people in willy-nilly. And you sure as heck don't reward people for illegal behavior.

 

Like I said, set the immigration policies to match our economic needs. And reward people who actually OBEY the law, not those who break it.

[Controlled Chaos]

Ripping the lid off a secret immigration deal

By Rebecca Hagelin

Friday, May 25, 2007

 

I've never been more proud to work at The Heritage Foundation than I was this past Monday.

 

 

I was seated at a conference table with 31 of the brightest, most analytical and highly principled people I've ever known as we dissected and analyzed various ripple effects of the Senate’s devastating immigration-reform proposal. After spending an entire weekend digging through a document that had remained secret for so long, Heritage was further scrutinizing it -- and doing what many in the U.S. Senate refused to do: Reveal the truth.

 

 

Heritage received the “secret” text -- one that would fundamentally change the American landscape -- around two o’clock in the morning on Saturday. Within hours it was posted online at heritage.org for all to read. The next day, Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., mentioned this on the Senate floor:

 

 

“For the sake of open deliberation and public education, The Heritage Foundation, which got a copy of the bill somehow, is making this legislation, in draft form, publicly available to encourage widespread debate and discussion. Thank goodness they did make it public … It’s an opportunity, really, for the American people to know what's involved.”

 

 

The document had been developed behind closed doors -- away from public scrutiny. It was crafted far from the eyes of ordinary Americans. Once Heritage experts read the drafts, it became painfully clear that our government is considering a measure that would provide amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants and create multiple problems for how we deal with those pouring over the border in the future.

 

 

Heritage experts crunched numbers throughout the weekend, weighing the cost both in dollars and in what it would mean to sacrifice the rule of law. We provided analysis through blogging on heritage.org and through columns to sites such as National Review Online, where Heritage constitutional scholar Matthew Spalding built a devastating case for why the measure amounted to amnesty. Again, Heritage did what the Senate failed to do: Inform the public.

 

 

But Heritage didn’t stop there. My colleagues continued to scrutinize every line of the bill, researched past proposals, discussed alternative measures, churned out documents on the many problems of the legislation and how to solve them. Granting amnesty to illegal immigrants will eventually make them eligible for welfare, Social Security, Medicare and other government benefits. Senior research fellow Robert Rector gave a preliminary estimate of the cost of amnesty to the taxpayer -- a whopping $400,000 per person over the average lifespan and age of entry for the illegal immigrant. Rector called the bill “a blank check to illegal immigrants written at taxpayer expense.” Again, Heritage did something the Senate refused to do: Think critically.

 

 

One of the many tragic results of this bill is that people will begin to flood over the border in numbers yet unseen in this country to register for the probationary period. An illegal immigrant needs only two affidavits (one of which can be from a family member) stating that he or she has been here and illegally working before January of this year. Any alien now in custody for entering the country illegally, or anyone caught crossing the border, will actually be offered the opportunity to fill out the paperwork to be put on the road to the entire package of U.S. benefits. Some 12 million people are estimated to take this first step to becoming a protected member of the United States on some level. They will immediately be able to enjoy free emergency health care, free public education and free welfare programs for children.

 

 

Another tragedy is the bogus background check. The federal government has only 24 hours to produce criminal records for probationary applicants before the protection status is granted. Just 24 hours! In many cases, it takes longer than that for a background check when a U.S. citizen is arrested. Suppose three or five or 10 days later, a prior conviction is discovered? Too bad. That person is long gone, with a protection card in hand.

 

 

Perhaps this helps explain the secrecy that surrounded this bill -- at least, until Heritage got a hold of it. According to Rector, “Any illegal immigrant during the next two years who enters the country and claims amnesty cannot be arrested, detained or deported. It’s essentially a get-out-of-jail-free card for future illegal immigrants.”

 

 

Our discussion around the table kept referring back to a previously written Heritage paper on principles of immigration reform. Government must be founded on core principles. When it isn’t, matters can spiral out of control easily. In demanding that the Senate act on core principles, Heritage did what the Senate has neglected to do in writing the immigration bill: Use principles as a foundation for policy.

 

 

“First Principles” is a rally cry often heard at Heritage’s headquarters. We’ll continue insisting on them -- and you can rest assured that we’ll keep you apprised of the latest developments in the immigration debate.

 

 

 

 

Rebecca Hagelin is a vice president of The Heritage Foundation and author of Home Invasion: Protecting Your Family in a Culture that's Gone Stark Raving Mad .

[Texsox]

Funny, no one seems to want to answer any of my questions anyway, instead just asking more questions. But that's OK.

 

I reread your posts and only saw one question and will attempt an answer,

 

We have 12,000,000 jobs being worked by illegals who may not be paying into social security.

 

Once these 12,000,000 jobs are in the hands of legal employees who will be earning benefits into social security, we will have a crisis. You ask how we can avoid that new huge burden.

 

There is no way around that looming crisis. The only way to avoid it is by using illegals and no one wants that anymore. As soon as those workers go on the books we have a problem. I don't see how it makes a difference if that worker is a new immigrant, or one of our children. We offer benefits to the working poor. We are adding those 12,000,000 *jobs* on the roles. That is 12,000,000 more positions that will pay in and receive benefits.

 

Do you see a way around it? It seems as if you are arguing we should have continued to use illegals so we wouldn't have the social security problem and I know you don't want those illegals breaking into your home and taking your things.

[mr_genius]

An illegal immigrant needs only two affidavits (one of which can be from a family member) stating that he or she has been here and illegally working before January of this year.

 

wow, that is messed up. we're gonna have a billion mexican immigrants slamming over the border.

 

the country can't sustain tens of millions of new people mexico coming over. there just aren't that many low level jobs. what are we going to do when all these people are here, and citizens, and only a third of them have jobs?

 

this whole thing needs to be thought out better.

[Texsox]

wow, that is messed up. we're gonna have a billion mexican immigrants slamming over the border.

 

the country can't sustain tens of millions of new people mexico coming over. there just aren't that many low level jobs. what are we going to do when all these people are here, and citizens, and only a third of them have jobs?

 

this whole thing needs to be thought out better.

 

Amen, I'd love to hear just one elected official mention tying this to jobs. No jobs, no immigration, Not from Mexico, Pakistan, Canada, England, Norway, not from there or there. Not over there or under there, Jobs, jobs, jobs, needs to be the reason.

 

And I still think it is crazy how we don't have a problem with a Canadian coming over and taking a 80,000 management job but fight like hell about Mexicans taking $15,000 construction jobs. Which one is someone here likely to hold?

[mr_genius]

Amen, I'd love to hear just one elected official mention tying this to jobs. No jobs, no immigration, Not from Mexico, Pakistan, Canada, England, Norway, not from there or there. Not over there or under there, Jobs, jobs, jobs, needs to be the reason.

 

And I still think it is crazy how we don't have a problem with a Canadian coming over and taking a 80,000 management job but fight like hell about Mexicans taking $15,000 construction jobs. Which one is someone here likely to hold?

 

i agree with part of what you said. i'm definately not "anti-mexican' or anything like that. i don't have a problem getting people that are here working steady jobs a path to legalization.

 

but we aren't bringing over canadians to do management jobs in large nunbers. tech jobs and engineering? yes, from India and Asia, but only because those jobs are impossible to completely fill with americans that have no education or skills in these fields (and have no desire to obtain these skills). also, these tech and engineering immigrants did it legally.

[Texsox]

i agree with part of what you said. i'm definately not "anti-mexican' or anything like that. i don't have a problem getting people that are here working steady jobs a path to legalization.

 

but we aren't bringing over canadians to do management jobs in large nunbers. tech jobs and engineering? yes, from India and Asia, but only because those jobs are impossible to completely fill with americans that have no education or skills in these fields (and have no desire to obtain these skills). also, these tech and engineering immigrants did it legally.

 

And if we actually had a path to bring in low skilled workers I would agree, That is why we need a guest worker program that allows people to come in here and work for ten, twenty, thirty years and return to their home countries for their golden years, or, by achieving certain objectives, like not committing any crimes, paying taxes on time, etc, Be allowed to stay here.

 

Side note, Why is it easier for us to accept we aren't turning out enough skilled workers, but not accept we aren't turning out children that want careers in menial labor? It's a crisis we don't have enough lawn care workers and bus boys but not a crisis that high salary jobs are being filled in from over seas? Import the bosses to employ Americans. That is a crisis.

[EvilMonkey]

I reread your posts and only saw one question and will attempt an answer,

 

We have 12,000,000 jobs being worked by illegals who may not be paying into social security.

 

Once these 12,000,000 jobs are in the hands of legal employees who will be earning benefits into social security, we will have a crisis. You ask how we can avoid that new huge burden.

I thought 12 million was the amount of illegals here, not the amount of jobs they are taknig. You can't be saying that every illegal here has a job, because i KNOW that is false.

[Rex Kickass]

I would argue that most of them do work, and most of them aren't on the dole - because for an undocumented resident, the dole is somewhat hard to get on.

[Texsox]

I thought 12 million was the amount of illegals here, not the amount of jobs they are taknig. You can't be saying that every illegal here has a job, because i KNOW that is false.

 

Southsider brings up the ones that will now be working those 12,000,000 jobs on the books and earning credits towards social security. I'm not going to dispute the exact number, my point is no matter who is working those jobs when they go "on the books", the social security impact will be the same. The only way to avoid the social security impact is to either continue to employ illegals (something no one wants) or change social security.

 

I do wonder how these "new: jobs compare to other low wage jobs that are created? Why would putting new jobs on the books hard social security? It would seem that adding these jobs to social security would help, not hurt. And if it does hurt than doesn't every new job paying low wages harm social security as well?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

It is really disturbing to me how far backwards this nation is willing to bend over to allow these 12 million criminals to remain here and provide a drain on our system. It's equally disturbing to me that our elected officials on both sides of the aisle are willing to totally f*** this country over just to allow big business a pool of cheap, nearly slave labor to pick cherries and frame houses.

[Texsox]

It is really disturbing to me how far backwards this nation is willing to bend over to allow these 12 million criminals to remain here and provide a drain on our system. It's equally disturbing to me that our elected officials on both sides of the aisle are willing to totally f*** this country over just to allow big business a pool of cheap, nearly slave labor to pick cherries and frame houses.

 

And join the military .

 

Sadly, the right cure is worse for this country than the compromise with the devil.

 

Interesting that working people would be a drain on the system. I'd like to hear why the GOP is opposed to minimum wage increases but opposed to low paying jobs that are a drain on our system? Isn't the solution to pay a livable wage so everyone could contribute to the cost of this country? And isn't a deficit the only way to keep our economy humming along? I thought deficits are great!

 

Bottom line is the right thing to do is pay to send 12,000,000 people back to their countries and put in a system where we can allow 12,000,000 people to take those jobs. The net is the same to social security and other working poor programs that the government offers, but we will have fresh new immigrants who came here legally. Businesses that relied on this labor may go under while they wait for new laborers. We'll temporarily drop 12,000,000 jobs from the economy, but we'll just cut taxes to make up for it.

 

I notice SS hasn't found how to have people working these jobs without being a burden to social security. I was hoping he had a way to put these jobs on the books with different workers and save the system.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(NUKE @ May 27, 2007 -> 08:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is really disturbing to me how far backwards this nation is willing to bend over to allow these 12 million criminals to remain here and provide a drain on our system. It's equally disturbing to me that our elected officials on both sides of the aisle are willing to totally f*** this country over just to allow big business a pool of cheap, nearly slave labor to pick cherries and frame houses.

I remember hearing the quote of a former Marine who owned a construction company saying the reason why he hired illegals was because it takes two Americans to make up the work for one illegal.

[EvilMonkey]

I remember hearing the quote of a former Marine who owned a construction company saying the reason why he hired illegals was because it takes two Americans to make up the work for one illegal.

Sounds like a slam against unions.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ May 28, 2007 -> 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like a slam against unions.

Just curious, why should somebody make and/or demand significantly more money and have benefits if there are other people who can do the same job just as well or to close of quality who don't make the same demands?

 

We should base it on citzenship?

[EvilMonkey]

Just curious, why should somebody make and/or demand significantly more money and have benefits if there are other people who can do the same job just as well or to close of quality who don't make the same demands?

 

We should base it on citzenship?

Don't ask me, I'm not really pro-union. But if the guy was hiring illegals, that is just wrong. Hire non-union people as independent contractors to try and get around it or something. But if you are FOR hiring an illegal because he can do the same work for half the cost. then are you also for outsourcing of jobs to India and China, where they do the same work for half the cost? Maybe free up union restrictions to bring the costs down a bit. But that is a different discussion altogether.

[Texsox]

There are a lot of reasons for having illegals on your payroll. If you know they are illegal, I have very little sympathy for you. But there are excellent forgers around and many companies can not hire enough workers, I see ads down here all the time for packing house workers, Companies down here are always looking for skilled maintenance workers and tool and die journeymen,

 

By the time you risk your live to get north and finally find a job, you'd work your ass off also to keep it. Second generation migrant workers are among the hardest working people I know. They tell of watching their family follow the crops and work from dawn to dusk for very low pay and miserable working and living conditions. They always wanted to avoid that life.

 

 

There are a lot of reasons for having illegals on your payroll. If you know they are illegal, I have very little sympathy for you. But there are excellent forgers around and many companies can not hire enough workers, I see ads down here all the time for packing house workers, Companies down here are always looking for skilled maintenance workers and tool and die journeymen,

 

By the time you risk your live to get north and finally find a job, you'd work your ass off also to keep it. Second generation migrant workers are among the hardest working people I know. They tell of watching their family follow the crops and work from dawn to dusk for very low pay and miserable working and living conditions. They always wanted to avoid that life.