The Bullpen

[Whitewashed in '05]

Aarsdma - 3.63

MacDougal - 5.40

Jenks - 3.18

Masset - 6.61

 

Logan - 4.63

Sisco - 6.75

Thornton - 4.66

 

That's the ERA of each guy in our bullpen.

 

We have seen Aardsma blow up in the late innings 3 times now.

 

Logan loves giving up those big homers. Either really good or really bad.

 

Sisco can't throw a strike.

 

MacDougal - ...can't throw a strike.

 

Thornton - Throws too many 1st pitch fastballs.

 

Masset - Our long reliever who gives up too many hits and walks while striking out no one, but he's on par with Jenks.

 

Jenks - the only guy who has done anything good even without his best stuff.

 

I know a lot of these guys are young. I know no one is going to have a 0 ERA the whole season, but these guys were barely getting the job done when they were doing good and now just completely suck.

 

With this offense if we can't turn the game over with a lead to the bullpen we are DONE.

[BearSox]

Day will save the day...

[Whitewashed in '05]

I forgot to add that our pitching from the 7th inning on has a 4.67 ERA. Good for 23rd in the majors.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Whitewashed in '05

[Dick Allen]

People were more concerned about the radar gun when putting the bullpen together than effectiveness. A lot of people on this site bought it as well. They really shouldn't complain.

[whitesoxfan101]

People were more concerned about the radar gun when putting the bullpen together than effectiveness. A lot of people on this site bought it as well. They really shouldn't complain.

 

That about sums it up. I think MacDougal will be ok in the long run, but people have figured out Aardsma only has 1 pitch and Masset seems more suited to start than pitch in relief the way he throws to be honest. Logan was put into a REALLY bad spot today, I can't blame him a lot, Jenks is fine, and Thornton has been a lot better lately. Sisco is what he is, which is not very good IMO. So I guess I'm saying overall our pen should be ok I think, although there is reason for much concern, it's a mixed bag right now out there.

Edited May 20, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[Felix]

People were more concerned about the radar gun when putting the bullpen together than effectiveness. A lot of people on this site bought it as well. They really shouldn't complain.

It doesn't matter how fast you throw if you only throw one pitch. Thats something a lot of people here (especially when it comes to prospects) seem to forget. This is also why I have hope for people like Broadway, and like pitchers who rely on command as opposed to a 99 MPH fastball (Buehrle).

 

Great post.

[whitesoxfan101]

It doesn't matter how fast you throw if you only throw one pitch. Thats something a lot of people here (especially when it comes to prospects) seem to forget. This is also why I have hope for people like Broadway, and like pitchers who rely on command as opposed to a 99 MPH fastball (Buehrle).

 

Great post.

 

Agreed, although I'd also point out I think our bullpen arms have just as much, maybe more trouble with throwing QUALITY strikes than they do say avoiding walks. It seems like any strike our pen guys throw lately are right down the middle in the wheelhouse.

[Dick Allen]

Agreed, although I'd also point out I think our bullpen arms have just as much, maybe more trouble with throwing QUALITY strikes than they do say avoiding walks. It seems like any strike our pen guys throw lately are right down the middle in the wheelhouse.

That goes hand in hand with lack of control. Maybe if they were throwing 97 like advertised, they could get away with it more often. I wonder why White Sox pitchers seem to lose velocity quickly.

[fathom]

That goes hand in hand with lack of control. Maybe if they were throwing 97 like advertised, they could get away with it more often. I wonder why White Sox pitchers seem to lose velocity quickly.

 

Cooper has to be stressing to these guys that they'll have more command if they don't try to throw as hard.

[Brian]

Blow it up

[whitesoxfan101]

Cooper has to be stressing to these guys that they'll have more command if they don't try to throw as hard.

 

They should go back to throwing as hard as they can then, because this stuff isn't working.

[southsideirish71]

Aarsdma - 3.63

MacDougal - 5.40

Jenks - 3.18

Masset - 6.61

 

Logan - 4.63

Sisco - 6.75

Thornton - 4.66

 

That's the ERA of each guy in our bullpen.

 

We have seen Aardsma blow up in the late innings 3 times now.

 

Logan loves giving up those big homers. Either really good or really bad.

 

Sisco can't throw a strike.

 

MacDougal - ...can't throw a strike.

 

Thornton - Throws too many 1st pitch fastballs.

 

Masset - Our long reliever who gives up too many hits and walks while striking out no one, but he's on par with Jenks.

 

Jenks - the only guy who has done anything good even without his best stuff.

 

I know a lot of these guys are young. I know no one is going to have a 0 ERA the whole season, but these guys were barely getting the job done when they were doing good and now just completely suck.

 

With this offense if we can't turn the game over with a lead to the bullpen we are DONE.

 

Massett is a mop up guy for right now. I think he will be much better as a starter. When he has had a chance to go long, he has been great. He throws a good 2 seam fastball that moves. And he has a plus curve. Is he throwing upper 90s no. Is he 92-94 yes. Thats good as a starter.

 

Thornton, you want him to throw first pitch fastballs, because like Sisco and MacDougal he has had control issues. Thornton needed a bit to build up his velocity. Now that its there he is fine.

 

Sisco and MacDougal. Same issues. If they throw strikes they will be fine. Sisco has nasty stuff, he just needs to get aggressive.

 

Aardsma is fine. He was beat because they kept going to the well over and over low and away and the cubs adjusted.

 

Boone Logan is a loogy, and a loogy only until he can throw strikes. He has a great fastball, and a great curve and a nasty delivery. Everything is there but his head.

 

If these guys were to take on Danks go for it mentality, a lot of things would be solved in this pen.

[CWSGuy406]

They should go back to throwing as hard as they can then, because this stuff isn't working.

 

Yeah, I agree, Thorton should definitely go back to the way he pitched in Seattle, as that worked so well for him.

 

Ditto Jenks, he should go back to the way he threw while in the Anahiem organization, that got him real far.

[whitesoxfan101]

Massett is a mop up guy for right now. I think he will be much better as a starter. When he has had a chance to go long, he has been great. He throws a good 2 seam fastball that moves. And he has a plus curve. Is he throwing upper 90s no. Is he 92-94 yes. Thats good as a starter.

 

Thornton, you want him to throw first pitch fastballs, because like Sisco and MacDougal he has had control issues. Thornton needed a bit to build up his velocity. Now that its there he is fine.

 

Sisco and MacDougal. Same issues. If they throw strikes they will be fine. Sisco has nasty stuff, he just needs to get aggressive.

 

Aardsma is fine. He was beat because they kept going to the well over and over low and away and the cubs adjusted.

 

Boone Logan is a loogy, and a loogy only until he can throw strikes. He has a great fastball, and a great curve and a nasty delivery. Everything is there but his head.

 

If these guys were to take on Danks go for it mentality, a lot of things would be solved in this pen.

 

I agree with all that except Aardsma and Sisco. Aardsma only has 1 pitch he can throw for a strike, and Sisco has never shown any sign of consistent control his entire career. Those 2 really are concerning.

[fathom]

Sisco shouldn't be in the majors right now. It makes no sense for us to have 3 lefties. However, Logan can only face lefty hitters at this point in his career.

[whitesoxfan101]

Yeah, I agree, Thorton should definitely go back to the way he pitched in Seattle, as that worked so well for him.

 

Ditto Jenks, he should go back to the way he threw while in the Anahiem organization, that got him real far.

 

Huh? Jenks has been fine this year because he's thrown ALL of his pitches for strikes, something nobody else in our pen seems to be able to do, and Thornton's success lately is he said screw the control, I'm throwing as hard as I can, thus his velocity is back to 96 to 98 and he's not getting hit (and he's still throwing strikes even at this velocity).

Edited May 20, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[AirScott]

Aarsdma - 3.63

MacDougal - 5.40

Jenks - 3.18

Masset - 6.61

 

Logan - 4.63

Sisco - 6.75

Thornton - 4.66

 

That's the ERA of each guy in our bullpen.

 

We have seen Aardsma blow up in the late innings 3 times now.

 

Logan loves giving up those big homers. Either really good or really bad.

 

Sisco can't throw a strike.

 

MacDougal - ...can't throw a strike.

 

Thornton - Throws too many 1st pitch fastballs.

 

Masset - Our long reliever who gives up too many hits and walks while striking out no one, but he's on par with Jenks.

 

Jenks - the only guy who has done anything good even without his best stuff.

 

I know a lot of these guys are young. I know no one is going to have a 0 ERA the whole season, but these guys were barely getting the job done when they were doing good and now just completely suck.

 

With this offense if we can't turn the game over with a lead to the bullpen we are DONE.

I've said a few times in another thread, Aardsma's ERA was 1.64 before this mess.

 

MacDougal's ERA was 3.09 less than two weeks ago, then he allowed three runs without recording an out to raise the ERA to 5.40, where it's at now. He did, however, combine for 1.2 innings, no hits, no runs, a walk and two strikeouts in his two appearances before yesterday's. He seemed to finding the zone again just fine, you have to remember bouncing 55-footers is the usual for him. Friday's just came at a bad time.

 

Boone Logan...he's still young, still figuring it out. On Lee's grand slam today, Logan had fallen behind 3-1 with nowhere to put him. He needs to get ahead of guys.

 

Thornton's coming around -- six outings this month, and he's allowed no runs and a hit. Walking nobody, too. Yeah, he throws a lot of first pitch fastballs, but he really only throws fastballs.

 

Sisco was at a 3.72 ERA as recently as May 12 before he allowed five runs combined in his last two appearances.

 

Masset, he was at a more respectable 4.62 ERA before four runs in 2/3 innings May 13.

 

What I'm saying is, it's been a bad run recently for the bullpen. If you're going to consider the overall numbers of a bullpen, look at their recent performances. When it's been bad, it's been BAD, but the bullpen shut down the Yankees in Games 1 and 3 of that series. So don't overreact.

[Dick Allen]

I've said a few times in another thread, Aardsma's ERA was 1.64 before this mess.

 

MacDougal's ERA was 3.09 less than two weeks ago, then he allowed three runs without recording an out to raise the ERA to 5.40, where it's at now. He did, however, combine for 1.2 innings, no hits, no runs, a walk and two strikeouts in his two appearances before yesterday's. He seemed to finding the zone again just fine, you have to remember bouncing 55-footers is the usual for him. Friday's just came at a bad time.

 

Boone Logan...he's still young, still figuring it out. On Lee's grand slam today, Logan had fallen behind 3-1 with nowhere to put him. He needs to get ahead of guys.

 

Thornton's coming around -- six outings this month, and he's allowed no runs and a hit. Walking nobody, too. Yeah, he throws a lot of first pitch fastballs, but he really only throws fastballs.

 

Sisco was at a 3.72 ERA as recently as May 12 before he allowed five runs combined in his last two appearances.

 

Masset, he was at a more respectable 4.62 ERA before four runs in 2/3 innings May 13.

 

What I'm saying is, it's been a bad run recently for the bullpen. If you're going to consider the overall numbers of a bullpen, look at their recent performances. When it's been bad, it's been BAD, but the bullpen shut down the Yankees in Games 1 and 3 of that series. So don't overreact.

 

I'm sorry. The bullpen has been asked to get fewer outs than any bullpen in the major leagues, and they aren't getting it done. As Bill Melton said a week or 2 ago, even when they aren't giving up runs, the majority of them are struggling. It does not bode well. We are a quarter of the way through the season, and when the Sox play in weather above 40 degrees, the bullpen has been a gas can. Something needs to get straightened out quickly, or kiss the season goodbye. There is absolutely no reason the White Sox shouldn't have won at least 1 of the last 2 games, and if they had a stellar bullpen, the bullpen KW and Ozzie insisted they had, it would be the White Sox going for a sweep tomorrow. I have no confidence in Masset tomorrow, I am just thankful the wind will be blowing in, and hoping it keeps the score down .

[AirScott]

I'm sorry. The bullpen has been asked to get fewer outs than any bullpen in the major leagues, and they aren't getting it done. As Bill Melton said a week or 2 ago, even when they aren't giving up runs, the majority of them are struggling. It does not bode well. We are a quarter of the way through the season, and when the Sox play in weather above 40 degrees, the bullpen has been a gas can. Something needs to get straightened out quickly, or kiss the season goodbye. There is absolutely no reason the White Sox shouldn't have won at least 1 of the last 2 games, and if they had a stellar bullpen, the bullpen KW and Ozzie insisted they had, it would be the White Sox going for a sweep tomorrow. I have no confidence in Masset tomorrow, I am just thankful the wind will be blowing in, and hoping it keeps the score down .

"if they had a stellar bullpen"

 

How do you go about building a stellar bullpen? Usually, that's lucked into. Cliff Politte's career ERA is 4.40, but he was the setup man for the stellar 2005 bullpen, posting a 2.01 ERA and holding opponents to a .181 batting average. Neal Cotts' career ERA is 4.43, but in 2005 he finished at 1.94 and opponents hit .174 against him. Hermanson's career ERA: 4.21. Hermanson's 2005 ERA: 2.04.

 

For the Twins last year, wasn't Dennys Reyes awesome for them? The guy has a 4.48 career ERA, yet posted a 0.89(!) ERA last year.

 

Remember Guillermo Mota? LaTroy Hawkins? Whatever happened to them?

 

This bullpen isn't on the level it was at in 2005, but they can still turn it around. Look at the ERAs of these guys before they started getting hit around. You telling me Aardsma didn't look that good before yesterday?

[greg775]

I think MacDougal will be ok in the long run

 

I don't share your optimism on him.

I don't know what the Sox can do at this point.

There's really nobody to put in the game before Jenks where the Sox have a 75 percent

or greater chance of success.

As much as I hate watching them pitch, I'd say MacDougal and Thornton are the only

possible options.

I agree with the person who wrote Blow It Up.

Are there any minor league cast of candidates? What about the knuckleballer?

[Dick Allen]

"if they had a stellar bullpen"

 

How do you go about building a stellar bullpen? Usually, that's lucked into. Cliff Politte's career ERA is 4.40, but he was the setup man for the stellar 2005 bullpen, posting a 2.01 ERA and holding opponents to a .181 batting average. Neal Cotts' career ERA is 4.43, but in 2005 he finished at 1.94 and opponents hit .174 against him. Hermanson's career ERA: 4.21. Hermanson's 2005 ERA: 2.04.

 

For the Twins last year, wasn't Dennys Reyes awesome for them? The guy has a 4.48 career ERA, yet posted a 0.89(!) ERA last year.

 

Remember Guillermo Mota? LaTroy Hawkins? Whatever happened to them?

 

This bullpen isn't on the level it was at in 2005, but they can still turn it around. Look at the ERAs of these guys before they started getting hit around. You telling me Aardsma didn't look that good before yesterday?

 

Aardsma has had a few shaky outings and has been great others. Basically just like his short career has gone. KW built the bullpen and impressed a lot of people with the velocity, but who has had sustained success in the major leagues? Aardsma? No. Thornton? No. Sisco? No. MacDougal? No. Logan? No. Masset? No. Jenks? Some, but he was less than dominant the second half last year. Forget the radar readings, chances are this bullpen is going to struggle. Most have had control issues before or they wouldn't have been available in the bargain bin. The White Sox don't want to pay the going rate for guys who have strung together a few quality years of work together, and that's their prerogitive. I don't understand though how you give Vazquez all that money when you had him under your control through 2008, and go cheap on the bullpen. Vazquez will be a question mark every season he is a White Sox. You could have 2 or maybe even 3 quality relievers for the money you will be paying him. If you go the way the Sox have gone, chances are the bullpen is going to fail you more than you think. To answer your question about building a bullpen, spending some money on it is a start. The 6 bullpen guys make a combined $3,675,000 a year. Thats 6 guys making just a tad more than Pods, COMBINED. A lot of people in the know thought Justin Speier would be a White Sox in 2007. The White Sox didn't want to pay the going rate. The Angels got him. The Angels have a good bullpen. And you are right, a lot of things went right for the Sox in 2005. Things we may never see again. There was a lot of luck involved, but that doesn't take anything away from the accomplishment. Every team that has ever won a WS has been very lucky.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Dick Allen

[fathom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've had two games all year that weren't save situations going into the 9th inning (that we lead)?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Our 'pen has blown atleast 6 games this year. That's a ridiculous total when you consider it's not even June yet. I've been very dissapointed with just about everybody outside of Jenks and Aardsma (although the latter guy has been pitching like s*** of late). And I'm not one that was thinking "Golly gee, they all throw 95 or higher. They'll all most certainly be dynamite." Sisco and Aardsma have both had success at this level. Masset's stuff was supposed to be a "tick" below BJ. Thorton and MacDougal were supposed to be the guys to get the ball to Bobby. Both were electric last year. Both have, well, stunk this year. I'm very, very dissapointed with the bullpen.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Jordan4life_2007

[DBAHO]

My thoughts on each member;

 

Jenks - Not much to worry about with Bobby, which is saying something considering his past couple of Spring Training's.

 

MacDougal - Something tells me he's carrying an injury. 10 BB's in 15 IP's, .283 BAA compared to a .213 mark for the Sox last season. Probably been the major disappointment so far. Put him on the 15 day DL if there is something wrong with him, and call up Dewon Day for a little while.

 

Thornton - You know Thornton's got great stuff, and yes we did win that trade with Seattle. However I think Matt's always gotten away with some things as his numbers show he isn't a "very good" setup man. His BAA is up by .041, but at least recently he's gotten into a groove with 0 ER in his past 4.1 IP pitched. We need him to keep that momentum up.

 

Aardsma - 1 bad game has putten his ERA up by 2. Considering it was against his former team who would know his stuff, I'm not majorly concerned. It'll take a while at least for the AL still to work him out. Should take over for MacDougal as the primary 8th inning guy with Thornton.

 

Sisco - Should not be up in the bullpen. I have said this from the moment we acquired him, he should be sent down to Charlotte and starting. Long - term that's where his future lies.

 

Logan - Shown glimpses, and I'd rather have him up instead of Sisco.

 

I think KW should have done a better job in the off-seeason of getting 1 more veteran lefty reliever. Hideki Okajima would have been perfect, look how good he has been and we've had success with Japanese players here before. That's something I think would have improved the pen just a little bit more.

[caulfield12]

Aardsma has had a few shaky outings and has been great others. Basically just like his short career has gone. KW built the bullpen and impressed a lot of people with the velocity, but who has had sustained success in the major leagues? Aardsma? No. Thornton? No. Sisco? No. MacDougal? No. Logan? No. Masset? No. Jenks? Some, but he was less than dominant the second half last year. Forget the radar readings, chances are this bullpen is going to struggle. Most have had control issues before or they wouldn't have been available in the bargain bin. The White Sox don't want to pay the going rate for guys who have strung together a few quality years of work together, and that's their prerogitive. I don't understand though how you give Vazquez all that money when you had him under your control through 2008, and go cheap on the bullpen. Vazquez will be a question mark every season he is a White Sox. You could have 2 or maybe even 3 quality relievers for the money you will be paying him. If you go the way the Sox have gone, chances are the bullpen is going to fail you more than you think. To answer your question about building a bullpen, spending some money on it is a start. The 6 bullpen guys make a combined $3,675,000 a year. Thats 6 guys making just a tad more than Pods, COMBINED. A lot of people in the know thought Justin Speier would be a White Sox in 2007. The White Sox didn't want to pay the going rate. The Angels got him. The Angels have a good bullpen. And you are right, a lot of things went right for the Sox in 2005. Things we may never see again. There was a lot of luck involved, but that doesn't take anything away from the accomplishment. Every team that has ever won a WS has been very lucky.

 

We're paying the price for having one of the best starting rotations in baseball. Arguably, it's still soaking up too much of our payroll, and that's after jettisoning Freddy Garcia.

 

Let's say we did have Justin Speier...well, we might have 2-3 more wins due to his "holds," but who would be our fifth starter then, Haeger, Floyd or Broadway?

 

We're extremely fortunate to be where we are right now. I guess we can keep going back and wishing we had kept El Duque and Chris Young, but that doesn't do much good right now.

 

Even if we dealt Vazquez today for "proven" relievers (and there's MAYBE 10 of them of them in baseball, the Scot Shields/Linebrinks/Zumayas of the world, one of them might be injured (Zumaya) or having an off season or decline, like Mo Rivera or Trevor Hoffman.

 

It's ironic that two of the better bullpen pitchers in our division recently have been ex-Sox in Grilli and Matt Guerrier. It just shows the fragile nature of the bullpen. Look at the Cubs coming into the series...and they have spent millions on their pen. Denys Reyes? Jamie Walker?

 

Of course, a lot comes down to depth, the Tigers have pitchers to cover up for Fernando Rodney or Zumaya, we didn't last year and don't this year. They also had the luxury of being able to bring up an Andrew Miller. Heck, Chad Durbin's pitching well for them, breaking the "ex-Royals" rule (same as Suppan and Miguel Batista). Minnesota has survived without Balfour and now Crain because they've produced Rincon and Neshek, among others...Perkins as well.

 

KW has had to go out into the market time and time again and "outguess" other organizations...when's the last time we produced a true, bonafide reliever in our organization? Interestingly, Fogg and Ring both came to us as college closers. Rauch and Majewski did well with other teams as relievers, and there's Frank Francisco too.

 

However, the focus for most teams will always be on starting pitching...and since all we have produced is Buehrle and McCarthy/Danks in the last 7 years, we're having to pay for it to acquire it another way.

 

Imagine we had taken Matt Cain or Jeff Francoeur instead of Royce Ring?

 

That one of the following became the pitcher they were once projected to be?

 

Danny Wright

Kip Wells

Matt Guerrier

Jim Parque

Lorenzo Barcelo

Jon Rauch

Jason Stumm

Corwin Malone

Kris Honel

Brian West

Matt Ginter

Aaron Myette

 

As far as the bullpen goes, look what happened to Jeff Bajenaru, Sean Tracey or Joe Valentine, all prospects on the fringes or in our Top 10 lists...

 

We've produced an injury-plagued and inconsistent Crede and Rowand, Lee and Ordonez, and then you have to go back further to Ray Durham, he became an arguably better player once he left the White Sox. Heck, Ray Durham would be the fastest player on the White Sox right now, at his age.

 

 

 

 

 

My thoughts on each member;

 

Jenks - Not much to worry about with Bobby, which is saying something considering his past couple of Spring Training's.

 

MacDougal - Something tells me he's carrying an injury. 10 BB's in 15 IP's, .283 BAA compared to a .213 mark for the Sox last season. Probably been the major disappointment so far. Put him on the 15 day DL if there is something wrong with him, and call up Dewon Day for a little while.

 

Thornton - You know Thornton's got great stuff, and yes we did win that trade with Seattle. However I think Matt's always gotten away with some things as his numbers show he isn't a "very good" setup man. His BAA is up by .041, but at least recently he's gotten into a groove with 0 ER in his past 4.1 IP pitched. We need him to keep that momentum up.

 

Aardsma - 1 bad game has putten his ERA up by 2. Considering it was against his former team who would know his stuff, I'm not majorly concerned. It'll take a while at least for the AL still to work him out. Should take over for MacDougal as the primary 8th inning guy with Thornton.

 

Sisco - Should not be up in the bullpen. I have said this from the moment we acquired him, he should be sent down to Charlotte and starting. Long - term that's where his future lies.

 

Logan - Shown glimpses, and I'd rather have him up instead of Sisco.

 

I think KW should have done a better job in the off-seeason of getting 1 more veteran lefty reliever. Hideki Okajima would have been perfect, look how good he has been and we've had success with Japanese players here before. That's something I think would have improved the pen just a little bit more.

 

 

Just because he's striking out AA hitters doesn't mean he (Day) would be successful in the big leagues, where hitters are much more disciplined and force you to throw strikes.

 

He has given up 12 walks in only 23 innings, and he's also giving up more hits than IP' (25 in 23)...if they thought Day or Oneli Perez were the answer, they'd be with the big league club right now.