Andrew Jones.. Overrated

[HuskyCaucasian]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2880979

Andruw is a man who has built his reputation around his Gold Glove parade, his exceptional ability to glide around center field and suck sure-thing doubles out of the sky without overheating a single sweat gland. But while most of us weren't paying attention, Andruw was slowly, apparently imperceptibly, losing the part of that gift that made him special.

 

Very good article.

[Brian]

Andruw has gotten better at the plate the last few years IMO. I know he is struggling this season but two years ago, he could of easily been MVP.

I don't see Braves games much but haven't seen many diving catches from his recently.

[Reddy]

Andruw has gotten better at the plate the last few years IMO. I know he is struggling this season but two years ago, he could of easily been MVP.

I don't see Braves games much but haven't seen many diving catches from his recently.

i dont think he's overrated, just having a bad year. end of story. if i recall pauly had this problem once (hoping its not twice)... but point is, good players have off years.

[Chisoxfn]

The guy is a freaking legend out in the field defensively and offensively I never thought people thought that highly of him (although his last few years have been pretty damn impressive).

 

I always thought of him as a good to solid offensive player and a legendary defensive player and in no way do I consider him over-rated.

[Felix]

He's always been incredibly overrated. His defense is good (was amongst the best in the game in his youth, not sure about now), but he's not the overall stud that people perceive him as.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Felix

[jackie hayes]

I don't think anyone denies that he was simply one of the greats in cf when he was younger. His bat was always 'just' very good. But if he's sacrificing defense and 15 points in obp for 5-10 more homers, that's not a good tradeoff. That seems to be what Starks is saying, and I agree with that.

 

With Andruw (AndrUw!), he's pretty big. I keep waiting, but, dammit, he still looks good defensively in the games I watch. I really don't know what to make of it. That is, I don't know if Starks is right, but my mind is open to the idea.

[rangercal]

Is andruw really overrated?

 

9 gold gloves in CF speak for themselves

 

 

Let's keep in mind that Andruw just turned 30,

 

if he averages just 20 HRS a year the next 10 years, he will finish with 548 hrs

25 avg a year he can approach 600. If he reached 600 hrs and finished with 9-12 Gold gloves, that is NOT over rated.

 

Folks, jones is doing things that have not been accomplished at cf besides Griffey and Mays.

 

I think people look at his career .265 avg too much

 

what about Andruw having a higher career slugging pct than Ernie Banks, Kirby Puckett, Miguel Tejada, Johnny Bench, Roberto Clemente?

 

People don't call Manny Ramirez Overrated, but what about his Defense?

What about David ortiz not playing the field? What about Frank Thomas and Sammy sosa in their primes?

 

Maybe Jones is overrated in Fantasy, as a baseball player he is not.

[Felix]

9 gold gloves in CF speak for themselves

I stopped reading after this. Seriously, Jones was (is?) a great defensive CF, but gold gloves mean nothing. Sorry.

[Rowand44]

I stopped reading after this. Seriously, Jones was (is?) a great defensive CF, but gold gloves mean nothing. Sorry.

Read the rest, it's pretty good.

[rangercal]

I stopped reading after this. Seriously, Jones was (is?) a great defensive CF, but gold gloves mean nothing. Sorry.

 

I doubt you stopped reading after that.

 

Jones Deserved the majority of those gloves. So YES in some cases it does mean something. To over look defense is ignorance.

 

Baseball may be the only sport where defense is overlooked.

 

 

Read the rest, it's pretty good.

 

not sure what you mean by that. I value defense and don't just cherry pick what statistical categories when I evaluate an all around baseball player.

 

 

My point is, their are a lot of big name sluggers who I consider overrated because they provide nothing or very little on the other side of the ball.

[Rowand44]

I doubt you stopped reading after that.

 

Jones Deserved the majority of those gloves. So YES in some cases it does mean something. To over look defense is ignorance.

 

Baseball may be the only sport where defense is overlooked.

not sure what you mean by that. I value defense and don't just cherry pick what statistical categories when I evaluate an all around baseball player.

My point is, their are a lot of big name sluggers who I consider overrated because they provide nothing or very little on the other side of the ball.

I mean that I like what you wrote and completely agree.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Rowand44

[rangercal]

I mean that I like what you wrote and completely agree.

 

lol sorry, my sarcasm detector works too well and sometimes picks up sarcasm that is not really there.

 

[witesoxfan]

Is andruw really overrated?

 

9 gold gloves in CF speak for themselves

Let's keep in mind that Andruw just turned 30,

 

if he averages just 20 HRS a year the next 10 years, he will finish with 548 hrs

25 avg a year he can approach 600. If he reached 600 hrs and finished with 9-12 Gold gloves, that is NOT over rated.

 

Folks, jones is doing things that have not been accomplished at cf besides Griffey and Mays.

 

I think people look at his career .265 avg too much

 

what about Andruw having a higher career slugging pct than Ernie Banks, Kirby Puckett, Miguel Tejada, Johnny Bench, Roberto Clemente?

 

People don't call Manny Ramirez Overrated, but what about his Defense?

What about David ortiz not playing the field? What about Frank Thomas and Sammy sosa in their primes?

 

Maybe Jones is overrated in Fantasy, as a baseball player he is not.

 

First of all, GG's nowadays are as much reputation as they are about actual defense. Derek Jeter is one of the worst defensive SS's in the game, yet he is a 2 time gold glove SS; does he really deserve that award over Juan Uribe? Torii Hunter, good as he may have been in CF last year, was not as good as Corey Patterson; people's eyes and stats will tell you that to be true, but Hunter won the GG while Patterson was left in the cold, and why is that? Eric Chavez won the award last year, and some would argue that there were 3 candiates who were more deserving of the award in the AL Central alone, let alone the other 8 teams in the AL. But you are going to use GG to justify defense with absolutely nothing else?

 

From everything I've seen and read, Jones is still a good defensive CFer, but he's not longer an elite defender in CF, and he hasn't been for a few years. Him winning Gold Gloves is because his name is Andruw Jones.

 

Secondly, Roberto Clemente, Ernie Banks, and Johnny Bench played in an entirely different era of baseball; you comparing raw slugging numbers against one another is completely ridiculous, and all of them have superior career OPS+'s higher than Jones does. On top of that, Clemente and Puckett were not a power hitters; Clemente hit .317 during a time when pitcher's dominated the game and hit .290 in the year of the pitcher when Yaz's .301 led the AL, Denny McClain won 30, and Bob Gibson put up the lowest ERA in like forever with 1.12. Puckett never hit lower than .288 in a season, while putting up averages of .310+ in 8 of his 12 years in the league. Comparing either to Andruw Jones is like comparing Carl Crawford to Andruw Jones, and in no regard does it work because they are completely different players all together.

 

Next, the obvious difference between Jones and Manny, Ortiz, Thomas, and Sosa is the 100-200 points difference between the OPS's of the groups. Jones is considered a cleanup type hitter, yet his .900 OPS pales in comparison: Manny's career OPS is over 1.000 and the last time he had an OPS under .950 was 1994, Ortiz has hit 101 homers in his last two full seasons, Frank Thomas is a top 5 hitter over the past 25 years, and Sosa averaged 61 homers over the course of a 4 season span. Has Jones ever done anything CLOSE to that offensively? Now you are comparing Andruw Jones to 3 of the best hitters of the past 25 years, along with perhaps the best power hitter of the past 5 years; Thomas and Ortiz don't play defense because they don't have to, Manny plays LF which is the second least important position defensively, and Sosa played RF with is the third least important. Jones plays CF, and you're almost comparing apples to oranges, because those guys are paid for their bats while Jones is paid for his overall game.

 

No one you will find is going to argue that Jones is a bad or mediocre player. What these people will argue is that he's not and never will be an elite player in this league, and I'm not sure there's any real argument against that. He has a career .850 OPS, his defense is diminishing in CF, and he hasn't stolen bases on a somewhat consistent basis since 2000, yet there are some who will make him into a demigod type figure because of the name. Andruw Jones is a great player, but he's not a player you'll build a franchise around, and he very well could be the 3rd or 4th best hitter on the Braves. I'm not sure there's an argument against the fact that at this moment - which is what Stark was suggesting - Andruw Jones isn't overrated.

[Felix]

First of all, GG's nowadays are as much reputation as they are about actual defense. Derek Jeter is one of the worst defensive SS's in the game, yet he is a 2 time gold glove SS; does he really deserve that award over Juan Uribe? Torii Hunter, good as he may have been in CF last year, was not as good as Corey Patterson; people's eyes and stats will tell you that to be true, but Hunter won the GG while Patterson was left in the cold, and why is that? Eric Chavez won the award last year, and some would argue that there were 3 candiates who were more deserving of the award in the AL Central alone, let alone the other 8 teams in the AL. But you are going to use GG to justify defense with absolutely nothing else?

 

From everything I've seen and read, Jones is still a good defensive CFer, but he's not longer an elite defender in CF, and he hasn't been for a few years. Him winning Gold Gloves is because his name is Andruw Jones.

 

Secondly, Roberto Clemente, Ernie Banks, and Johnny Bench played in an entirely different era of baseball; you comparing raw slugging numbers against one another is completely ridiculous, and all of them have superior career OPS+'s higher than Jones does. On top of that, Clemente and Puckett were not a power hitters; Clemente hit .317 during a time when pitcher's dominated the game and hit .290 in the year of the pitcher when Yaz's .301 led the AL, Denny McClain won 30, and Bob Gibson put up the lowest ERA in like forever with 1.12. Puckett never hit lower than .288 in a season, while putting up averages of .310+ in 8 of his 12 years in the league. Comparing either to Andruw Jones is like comparing Carl Crawford to Andruw Jones, and in no regard does it work because they are completely different players all together.

 

Next, the obvious difference between Jones and Manny, Ortiz, Thomas, and Sosa is the 100-200 points difference between the OPS's of the groups. Jones is considered a cleanup type hitter, yet his .900 OPS pales in comparison: Manny's career OPS is over 1.000 and the last time he had an OPS under .950 was 1994, Ortiz has hit 101 homers in his last two full seasons, Frank Thomas is a top 5 hitter over the past 25 years, and Sosa averaged 61 homers over the course of a 4 season span. Has Jones ever done anything CLOSE to that offensively? Now you are comparing Andruw Jones to 3 of the best hitters of the past 25 years, along with perhaps the best power hitter of the past 5 years; Thomas and Ortiz don't play defense because they don't have to, Manny plays LF which is the second least important position defensively, and Sosa played RF with is the third least important. Jones plays CF, and you're almost comparing apples to oranges, because those guys are paid for their bats while Jones is paid for his overall game.

 

No one you will find is going to argue that Jones is a bad or mediocre player. What these people will argue is that he's not and never will be an elite player in this league, and I'm not sure there's any real argument against that. He has a career .850 OPS, his defense is diminishing in CF, and he hasn't stolen bases on a somewhat consistent basis since 2000, yet there are some who will make him into a demigod type figure because of the name. Andruw Jones is a great player, but he's not a player you'll build a franchise around, and he very well could be the 3rd or 4th best hitter on the Braves. I'm not sure there's an argument against the fact that at this moment - which is what Stark was suggesting - Andruw Jones isn't overrated.

You took the words right out of my mouth

 

Really, really good post.

[SoxAce]

First of all, GG's nowadays are as much reputation as they are about actual defense. Derek Jeter is one of the worst defensive SS's in the game, yet he is a 2 time gold glove SS; does he really deserve that award over Juan Uribe? Torii Hunter, good as he may have been in CF last year, was not as good as Corey Patterson; people's eyes and stats will tell you that to be true, but Hunter won the GG while Patterson was left in the cold, and why is that? Eric Chavez won the award last year, and some would argue that there were 3 candiates who were more deserving of the award in the AL Central alone, let alone the other 8 teams in the AL. But you are going to use GG to justify defense with absolutely nothing else?

 

From everything I've seen and read, Jones is still a good defensive CFer, but he's not longer an elite defender in CF, and he hasn't been for a few years. Him winning Gold Gloves is because his name is Andruw Jones.

 

Secondly, Roberto Clemente, Ernie Banks, and Johnny Bench played in an entirely different era of baseball; you comparing raw slugging numbers against one another is completely ridiculous, and all of them have superior career OPS+'s higher than Jones does. On top of that, Clemente and Puckett were not a power hitters; Clemente hit .317 during a time when pitcher's dominated the game and hit .290 in the year of the pitcher when Yaz's .301 led the AL, Denny McClain won 30, and Bob Gibson put up the lowest ERA in like forever with 1.12. Puckett never hit lower than .288 in a season, while putting up averages of .310+ in 8 of his 12 years in the league. Comparing either to Andruw Jones is like comparing Carl Crawford to Andruw Jones, and in no regard does it work because they are completely different players all together.

 

Next, the obvious difference between Jones and Manny, Ortiz, Thomas, and Sosa is the 100-200 points difference between the OPS's of the groups. Jones is considered a cleanup type hitter, yet his .900 OPS pales in comparison: Manny's career OPS is over 1.000 and the last time he had an OPS under .950 was 1994, Ortiz has hit 101 homers in his last two full seasons, Frank Thomas is a top 5 hitter over the past 25 years, and Sosa averaged 61 homers over the course of a 4 season span. Has Jones ever done anything CLOSE to that offensively? Now you are comparing Andruw Jones to 3 of the best hitters of the past 25 years, along with perhaps the best power hitter of the past 5 years; Thomas and Ortiz don't play defense because they don't have to, Manny plays LF which is the second least important position defensively, and Sosa played RF with is the third least important. Jones plays CF, and you're almost comparing apples to oranges, because those guys are paid for their bats while Jones is paid for his overall game.

 

No one you will find is going to argue that Jones is a bad or mediocre player. What these people will argue is that he's not and never will be an elite player in this league, and I'm not sure there's any real argument against that. He has a career .850 OPS, his defense is diminishing in CF, and he hasn't stolen bases on a somewhat consistent basis since 2000, yet there are some who will make him into a demigod type figure because of the name. Andruw Jones is a great player, but he's not a player you'll build a franchise around, and he very well could be the 3rd or 4th best hitter on the Braves. I'm not sure there's an argument against the fact that at this moment - which is what Stark was suggesting - Andruw Jones isn't overrated.

 

I think it's safe to say that wite is back. Looks like he hasn't been drinking in a bit.

[rangercal]

First of all, GG's nowadays are as much reputation as they are about actual defense. Derek Jeter is one of the worst defensive SS's in the game, yet he is a 2 time gold glove SS; does he really deserve that award over Juan Uribe? Torii Hunter, good as he may have been in CF last year, was not as good as Corey Patterson; people's eyes and stats will tell you that to be true, but Hunter won the GG while Patterson was left in the cold, and why is that? Eric Chavez won the award last year, and some would argue that there were 3 candiates who were more deserving of the award in the AL Central alone, let alone the other 8 teams in the AL. But you are going to use GG to justify defense with absolutely nothing else?

 

From everything I've seen and read, Jones is still a good defensive CFer, but he's not longer an elite defender in CF, and he hasn't been for a few years. Him winning Gold Gloves is because his name is Andruw Jones.

 

Tell me which GG's he did not deserve, I was a young teen when Andruw Jones broke out into the majors, so I hat the privlege to watch Andruw Jones at least a few games every year since he debuted in '96. I do realize his defense has not been as it was in his early days but, he deserves all but 1 or 2 of those gold gloves, that's how good he was. Obviously, his range factor has gone down the last couple years, so I would say to this point he should not win any more gold gloves. He is still above average.

 

 

 

Secondly, Roberto Clemente, Ernie Banks, and Johnny Bench played in an entirely different era of baseball; you comparing raw slugging numbers against one another is completely ridiculous, and all of them have superior career OPS+'s higher than Jones does. On top of that, Clemente and Puckett were not a power hitters; Clemente hit .317 during a time when pitcher's dominated the game and hit .290 in the year of the pitcher when Yaz's .301 led the AL, Denny McClain won 30, and Bob Gibson put up the lowest ERA in like forever with 1.12. Puckett never hit lower than .288 in a season, while putting up averages of .310+ in 8 of his 12 years in the league. Comparing either to Andruw Jones is like comparing Carl Crawford to Andruw Jones, and in no regard does it work because they are completely different players all together.

Why is it wrong to compare Jones to Sluggers of that era? Other sluggers are always being compared to Ruth and Aaron,Rose,Bench ect. Im not the first , I'm not the last to compare. All the players you named were partly mentioned as greats because of their bats, jose should be no different. If you hit 51 hrs in a season, you are no slouch.

 

Next, the obvious difference between Jones and Manny, Ortiz, Thomas, and Sosa is the 100-200 points difference between the OPS's of the groups. Jones is considered a cleanup type hitter, yet his .900 OPS pales in comparison: Manny's career OPS is over 1.000 and the last time he had an OPS under .950 was 1994, Ortiz has hit 101 homers in his last two full seasons, Frank Thomas is a top 5 hitter over the past 25 years, and Sosa averaged 61 homers over the course of a 4 season span. Has Jones ever done anything CLOSE to that offensively? Now you are comparing Andruw Jones to 3 of the best hitters of the past 25 years, along with perhaps the best power hitter of the past 5 years; Thomas and Ortiz don't play defense because they don't have to, Manny plays LF which is the second least important position defensively, and Sosa played RF with is the third least important. Jones plays CF, and you're almost comparing apples to oranges, because those guys are paid for their bats while Jones is paid for his overall game.

I am not comparing apples to oranges, I was making a point that you can not cherry pick stats when judging a players overall game. Defense is way overlooked when looking at those top sluggers. So if you want to get on Jones OBP and AVG (reasons why people call him overrated) , lets talk about the D of all those top sluggers I mentioned.

 

 

No one you will find is going to argue that Jones is a bad or mediocre player. What these people will argue is that he's not and never will be an elite player in this league, and I'm not sure there's any real argument against that. He has a career .850 OPS, his defense is diminishing in CF, and he hasn't stolen bases on a somewhat consistent basis since 2000, yet there are some who will make him into a demigod type figure because of the name. Andruw Jones is a great player, but he's not a player you'll build a franchise around, and he very well could be the 3rd or 4th best hitter on the Braves. I'm not sure there's an argument against the fact that at this moment - which is what Stark was suggesting - Andruw Jones isn't overrated.

Jones is only overrated based on the individuals opinion and perspective. I see a chance at 600 hrs and close to 10 seasons where he was near the top of range factor and fielding pct at center field. Andruw Jones is in my eyes in the category between Torrii Hunter and Ken Griffey Jr. That is not overrated.

[RME JICO]

The problems with the Over/Under rated articles are the timing and what they are comparing that individual to. Jones is clearly having a down year, but that doesn't instantly make him overrated. I define overrated as someone who always gets hype but never produces, and Jones is not in that category. He is not overrated, he is just not performing up to his career numbers, but if you look around the league, there are a ton of guys doing the same thing (Ryan Howard batting .200, is he overrated?).

Edited May 27, 2007 by RME JICO

[whitesoxfan101]

Depends how you look at the word "overrated". In the sense he's become more of a home run or nothing hitter and isn't nearly as good a fielder as he was 5 years ago, yeah he is overrated. But he's still a pretty darn good fielder and still a dangerous hitter, despite the slow start this year. He's also going to retire with at least a dozen gold gloves and a bust in Cooperstown that nobody will argue with. All depends on howyou look at the word overrated IMO.

Edited May 27, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[santo=dorf]

Which Andrew; the cricket player, race car driver, or the filmmaker?

[ZoomSlowik]

Let's see if I can come up with some similar arguments here...

 

This guy has 8 gold gloves, 354 homers in about 90 more games than Andruw, two 40-plus homerun seasons and another 39 homer season, and a .288/.381/.534/.915 OPS.

 

That guy must be great, he must be a future HOF'er, he's one of the All-time greats.

 

Oh wait, it's Jim Edmonds, nobody cares.

 

Jones is a very good player, but he doesn't really belong in the pantheon of the absolute greats. He's going to end up with some very good career numbers largely because he came up when he was 20, but he has not been a consistent game-changing hitter. Yes, he's a likely HOF'er because of his great defense and solid offensive production, but I can't say I'd ever have called him one of the top 5 players in the league, maybe even top 10.

[Chisoxfn]

Let's see if I can come up with some similar arguments here...

 

This guy has 8 gold gloves, 354 homers in about 90 more games than Andruw, two 40-plus homerun seasons and another 39 homer season, and a .288/.381/.534/.915 OPS.

 

That guy must be great, he must be a future HOF'er, he's one of the All-time greats.

 

Oh wait, it's Jim Edmonds, nobody cares.

 

Jones is a very good player, but he doesn't really belong in the pantheon of the absolute greats. He's going to end up with some very good career numbers largely because he came up when he was 20, but he has not been a consistent game-changing hitter. Yes, he's a likely HOF'er because of his great defense and solid offensive production, but I can't say I'd ever have called him one of the top 5 players in the league, maybe even top 10.

My question is who was ever considering him one of the top 5 or 10 players in the league. I know I wasn't. Do I consider him one of the 10 best defensive centerfielders of all time, yes.

[ZoomSlowik]

My question is who was ever considering him one of the top 5 or 10 players in the league. I know I wasn't. Do I consider him one of the 10 best defensive centerfielders of all time, yes.

 

Well, that often seems to be a perception given the level of hype he gets and the amount of money he has/will receive, and that is generally true of guys considered likely HOF'ers. I always get the impression that the average fan considers him one of the top handful of players in the game (not among the super-elite, but maybe back end of the top 10). Given his usually decent but not stellar offensive production I just can't say that even with his awesome defense in his prime.

Edited May 30, 2007 by ZoomSlowik