Why are we so bad in Minny?

[gosox41]

Again, I'm pissed. This isn't one of those 'our season is over let's trade everyone' threads.

 

But I am frustrated that with all the personnel changes this team has had over the last few years, they continually choke out there.

 

It's almost like this team expects to lose. Sure the stadium sucks, but it's the same crap fthe Twins deal with. The constant temp. makes it a god hitting environment. The astroturf supposedly helpes a team that allegedly plays Ozzie ball (even with Pods in the line up, they seem to suck out there) so what's the deal? I don't thing the a/c being turned on/off is the root of the problem.

 

I think it's bigger then that. I think deep down, this team almost expects the worst to happen out there. There's no doubt in my mind, the Sox are more talented on paper, especially without Mauer. But they can still be counted on to lose to a team that has 5 very good players and 20 average players. I've made that analogy and it holds true.

 

Before the Pirate gave up that cheap hit to Torii Hunter today that scored the go ahead run, I turned the game off. While I'm a big fan and hate doing that, there's only so much frustration I can take. The issue wasn't if they were going to lose, but how much once the bottom fell out. And I don't pride myself on being some great prognosticator, but one can almost sense the doom and gloom and it's pissing me off to no end.

 

Enough is enough already. This team needs to get over their issues with the Twins and more specifically the Metrodome.

 

Don't the Twins always seem like one step ahead of us. They exectue the basics better, they seem to catch us napping on the basepaths and it doesn't seem to matter which no name reliever they bring in, they're going to shut us down.

 

Does anyone else believe the same thing? If so, why do the Sox have so many problems with this team?

 

 

 

Bob

[BearSox]

Well, right now, we are bad period.

[Rowand44]

It's that giant milk carton.

[southsideirish71]

From an offensive standpoint, we are an all or nothing team. We dont string hits together, we have horrible ideas of what the strikezone is. We never shorten up our swings with 2 strikes, and we have no clue how to situational hit. Look at the last Tampa game. We are down by a run, we get men on 1st and 2nd with no outs. We have how many guys strikeout on pitches way way out of the zone. Thats just dumb.

 

The reason the twins beat us a lot is how they attack the game. When was the last time you saw a Twins hitter strikeout on a pitcher over their head with RISP late in the game. When was the last time you saw 3 home run cuts with men on late in a game. You get 2 strikes on a twins hitter, and they shorten up their swings and put the ball in play. They hit line drives. They work the count. and they are fundamentally sound. When asked to bunt, the ball gets placed on the ground and they execute. They hit and run.

 

This is an organizational philosophy. Look at the twins organization, they have a common practice of how to play baseball. They teach fundamentals and execution.

 

Our organization produces a long line of long and looping swings. Hitters who are overmatched. The minute they come up here, they want to focus on how to make them hit for more and more power. The rob deer approach. None of our hitters have a clue how to bunt, how to hit and run, how to make contact when needed. When you get men on late in a game, and you see these large long home run cuts and strikeouts it pretty much tells you what you have.

 

Our defense is medicore at best. We have a hard time positioning our players to how we are pitching. Look at the cubs series, we have a pitcher throwing hard and we are setting up away. Then Dye is playing way way off the line. Uribe makes the tough plays, and boots the easy ones. Iguchi has had a bad year defensively.

 

And for our bullpen, we have issues with making good 2 strike pitches. We either go so far away from the plate no one unless they were Uribe would offer at it, or we groove one down the plate. We constantly have our pitchers in htiters counts and that is their problem.

 

 

2 pitchers worry me from the starters. Contreras the side armed version is a shadow of his pre-DL self from last year. You dont have to have lots of video to realize that he was 3/4s with his fastball that was 94-95 and his fork came from there. Now he is sidearming his fastall at 90-91 and his fork comes from a different slot. He will have good outings and bad ones based on if he can locate his fork. He doesnt have the dominant fastball. The Indians were quoted at the first part of this year as how suprised they were on Contreras's lack of velocity.

 

Vazquez, because with his stuff, he should be a 20 game winner. He doesnt focus, and that is his problem. He makes a few big mistakes with leaving pitches over the plate during the game that get killed. He is the old pre-2005 Garland with better strikeout stuff.

 

When Ozzie was hired I was happy. I thought I would see fundamental baseball. Hitting gap to gap, trying to be the Twins. And here we are a few years later, swinging for the fences like Manuel is back in the sadle. A grinder to me, is what the twins hitters are. A tough out, someone who makes you throw pitch after pitch late in the game, until you blink and they put the ball in play. I see another group of players with different names, swinging for the fences and coming up short like Valentin did back in 04.

[Felix]

From 2004 to 2007, we've been 19-14 at the Metrodome, including tonights loss and the series win we had there earlier this year. I guess I'm sort of confused as to how this means we're "so bad in Minny."

Edited May 29, 2007 by Felix

[Baines3]

This isn't a good a team we have. Sox have the talent but it isn't gelling together.

[fathom]

From 2004 to 2007, we've been 19-14 at the Metrodome, including tonights loss and the series win we had there earlier this year. I guess I'm sort of confused as to how this means we're "so bad in Minny."

 

Yeah, I don't know where this outcry against the Twinkie Dome is coming from. Some people would rather blame it on the park instead of the fact our pitchers are struggling to retire hitters, especially with 2 outs lately.

[Whitewashed in '05]

From 2004 to 2007, we've been 19-14 at the Metrodome, including tonights loss and the series win we had there earlier this year. I guess I'm sort of confused as to how this means we're "so bad in Minny."

It actually looks worse than the numbers show. Those numbers actually surprise me.

 

The games always have you on the tip of your seat. Something seems to always go wrong. I was not surprised about that chopper that Torii hit. You just know something stupid was going to happen. That is tough luck. It really is.

 

We could be up by 5 and I'll still watch every single out like it's a playoff game. A 1 run lead will always scare the s*** out of me there. You guys remember that game a few years back going into the 9th we were up 1-0 and those assholes tied it on that liner to Konerko that appeared foul (which it was) then went all the way to the bullpen to have the runner on score from first? Ugh...

[JohnCangelosi]

It actually looks worse than the numbers show. Those numbers actually surprise me.

 

The games always have you on the tip of your seat. Something seems to always go wrong. I was not surprised about that chopper that Torii hit. You just know something stupid was going to happen. That is tough luck. It really is.

 

We could be up by 5 and I'll still watch every single out like it's a playoff game. A 1 run lead will always scare the s*** out of me there. You guys remember that game a few years back going into the 9th we were up 1-0 and those assholes tied it on that liner to Konerko that appeared foul (which it was) then went all the way to the bullpen to have the runner on score from first? Ugh...

These are the types of things that happen in Minny...all the time against us. I can go down the list, from the swinging right looking center hitting left shank that Doug Mienkevicz hit against Foulke for a key 9th inning hit in 01 or 02. Probably the ugliest hit I've ever seen in my life outside of Ron Kittle's lone hit for the White Sox against Nolan Ryan for like the 240th 1 hitter of his career.

 

In the past few years, we have played better at the Twinkie dome. But it's the WAY in which we lose over there that is so friggin strange and frustrating that is probably the biggest issue.

 

Especially in the years where they had no talent over there in Minny. Now they have legit players, but still win on that garbage from Torii Hunter last night. You can say all you want about that being fundamental "bat on the ball" BS but the question remains:

 

Does that ball pop up 2 million feet at any other stupid ballpark in baseball? When do you ever see this sh&t happen against the White Sox in other parks? You don't...not nearly as much anyway.

 

And it leads you to believe this is how the Twins win games over the course of the year at their park.

 

But when it comes to the playoffs, they are the Yankees' (or plug in team) bi&^h because you can't count on that garbage happening in a short 5 or 7 game series and they're exposed.

 

Here's the bottom line- our bullpen is going through a really rough stretch right now. We come back and win these next two games, start hitting the ball and get our bullpen right. We can beat Detroit head to head and have a schedule in June where we can make things happen!

Edited May 29, 2007 by JohnCangelosi

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Felix @ May 28, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From 2004 to 2007, we've been 19-14 at the Metrodome, including tonights loss and the series win we had there earlier this year. I guess I'm sort of confused as to how this means we're "so bad in Minny."

If Bob was paying attention to the TV before the game, he would've clearly caught that and the note that record is second best behind........the Twins.

 

If we're "so bad" in the HHH dome, what does that make the other 20+ teams with crappier records there?

[briguy27]

1. we just arent good right now

 

2. we arent, b/c like somebody said, we're 19-14 their since 2004

 

3. its a dome. the twins find ways to get those little $*** rolling ground balls up the middle through the infield, and they do. if it was grass, they are easy grounders. they had about 4 of those hits yesterday

[JohnCangelosi]

I'd like to see what our record @ Minny was from 2001-2003. It was probably pretty ugly, and my guess is Bob remembers those games as well...

 

But there is no doubt, in my opinion, the Twins enjoy the best home field advantage in baseball. And they pull out games like last night because it.

 

Not to mention, Ozzie helped out the cause last night by leaving Contreras in way too long...

[retro1983hat]

The Sox have won 7 straight division championships ..... ON PAPER!

[Dick Allen]

I'd like to see what our record @ Minny was from 2001-2003. It was probably pretty ugly, and my guess is Bob remembers those games as well...

 

But there is no doubt, in my opinion, the Twins enjoy the best home field advantage in baseball. And they pull out games like last night because it.

 

Not to mention, Ozzie helped out the cause last night by leaving Contreras in way too long...

 

He might have left him in too long, but the bullpen is loaded with gascans who can't throw strike 1.

[JohnCangelosi]

He might have left him in too long, but the bullpen is loaded with gascans who can't throw strike 1.

He's got to trust someone down there. Surely, I don't give the ball to Mac or AAArdsma right now, but why not give Boone Logan a try for an Inning, then Thorton and inning and Jenks the 8th and 9th? How many times do we head into the bottom of the 6th with a one run LEAD against Santana? I realize Bobby for two may be a stretch but we've done it before. We just can't, in my opinion, under ANY circumstance, give the ball to Mac or AAArdsma right now when we are tied or have the lead. I still have confidence in the other guys.

[RME JICO]

He might have left him in too long, but the bullpen is loaded with gascans who can't throw strike 1.

It couldn't have been much worse than what Count was doing. At least there was a chance that they could do better. Ozzie loves the matchup game, but he failed to use it until he brought Logan in with the bases loaded vs Morneau. He could've brought him in several batters earlier before the damage was done to face two Lefties and switch-hitters Castillo and Punto.

 

I think the comments about the Dome are warranted because we could easily be 25-8 there instead of 19-14. The Twins have stolen several games from us there, but that is how they win. They use their home dome advantage. That is why they made it to the playoffs last year - on their home record alone.

Edited May 29, 2007 by RME JICO

[joeynach]

Its not just the sox that have trouble up there, we just go up there 3x as much as other teams. Other teams get Humphy domed by the twins too. Lost balls in the lights, ground balls goin all the way to wall on the turf, turf hits, high infield choppers for hits,etc. All the weird fluky garbage that the twins do to the sox in that dome they do to other teams too. I have seen it from Red Sox and Yanks up there, I saw it from cle too. Its just that team in that dome. They dont make "dome" mistakes and we dont take advantage of "dome" only hits. At least the dome is coming down in a year or so.

[elrockinMT]

The Twinkies know how to use the hole they call home to win. We don't know how to adjust when the hitters struggle.

 

Contreras is susceptible to melt downs from time to time and makes his problems worse. Plus we have a bullpen that can't get the big outs when needed right now. They can't hit the strike zone, groove the ball and fail to get the first batter out. Hopefully it will change soon. It usually is a matter of streaks some good some bad. Right now we are bad. But, if we turn around ansd win the next 2 games this will have been a susccesful visit to MPLS.

[StrangeSox]

God I hate that place. What a garbage dump that "ball park" is.

[Allsox]

The Twinkies know how to use the hole they call home to win. We don't know how to adjust when the hitters struggle.

 

Contreras is susceptible to melt downs from time to time and makes his problems worse. Plus we have a bullpen that can't get the big outs when needed right now. They can't hit the strike zone, groove the ball and fail to get the first batter out. Hopefully it will change soon. It usually is a matter of streaks some good some bad. Right now we are bad. But, if we turn around ansd win the next 2 games this will have been a susccesful visit to MPLS.

 

Right on. The Metrodome had nothing to do with Contreras' piss poor pitching. Hitting a guy with two outs, nobody on and 1 - 2 count like he did with Barlett is just plain bad.

 

And with Aardsma, it's driving me insane that a guy with his fastball is being asked by his catcher and his pitching coach to spot it on the outside corner

Pound the inside part of the plate and throw the breaking stuff away sounds like a good gameplan to me with Aardsma's stuff.

Edited May 29, 2007 by Allsox

[Mplssoxfan]

It's that giant milk carton.

It's not there any more! I don't know what happened to it.

 

Anyway, yesterday was my first time seeing this team in person, and they made so many mental errors it was mindboggling. Throwing to the wrong bases, not covering for each other -- it was frustrating to watch. Sure, you can pin some of the blame for the way these guys are playing on Ozzie, but when you are a Major League ballplayer and you don't execute the fundamentals of the game, it's not the skipper's fault.

[gosox41]

I'd like to see what our record @ Minny was from 2001-2003. It was probably pretty ugly, and my guess is Bob remembers those games as well...

 

But there is no doubt, in my opinion, the Twins enjoy the best home field advantage in baseball. And they pull out games like last night because it.

 

Not to mention, Ozzie helped out the cause last night by leaving Contreras in way too long...

 

 

Maybe it's selective memory because I didn't realize what the stats were. But it seems like there were numerous games in the last few years that the sox lost to the Twins due to being outplayed and out-hustled.

 

 

Also, does anyone know our record in the Metrodome during the second half of the year. Maybe that's why I have such a bad taste in my mouth, because we're always pissing our season away there.

 

Whatever it is, losses against Minnesota (especially those at Minnesota) stick out a lot worse in my mind then one's against the rest of the AL Central.

 

 

 

Bob

[witesoxfan]

Maybe it's just cuz I don't get to watch enough baseball from the Chicago side of things, but up here in the backwoods, it seems as though the Twins treat Sox/Twins as if it's the regular season World Series, and it's really just as big as Yanks-Sawks is. I just don't really tend to get that same feel from the White Sox aspect of it in anyone in the organization. Maybe that's me being blind, deaf, and dumb, or maybe it's because everyone seems to have a rivalry with the White Sox, but I just don't see that same killer instinct out of the Sox.

 

Just saying, and if I'm wrong, let me know

 

The Sox have won 7 straight division championships ..... ON PAPER!

 

no, they didn't have that in 2004, 2005, nor 2007. And in both 2001 and 2002, Cleveland and Minnesota were much more talented. Same actually goes for 2000. 2003 and 2006 have really been the only two years where the Sox have been pretty loaded with talent, so much so that they were the favorites by almost everyone going into the season.

[winninguglyin83]

we're bad in minnesota because we're not fast, we're not a great fielding team as far as range goes, we don't concentrate on putting the ball in play and they have a much, much superior bullpen.

[gosox41]

From 2004 to 2007, we've been 19-14 at the Metrodome, including tonights loss and the series win we had there earlier this year. I guess I'm sort of confused as to how this means we're "so bad in Minny."

 

 

Do you think we'll be an over .500 team at Minnesota when the 2007 season is over? Becasue when 2008 comes around and IF Francisco Liriano is healthy, that's another 4 losses for this Sox team.

 

 

 

Bob