Ozzie Guillen

[JohnCangelosi]

Ok, this is not meant to be an "Ozzie bashing" thread even though it may turn out to be...

 

But after watching him manage, there are a few specific things he does that I find myself screaming at the TV that I wanted to share, and hear other things from other Sox fans on where you think he could improve as the manager.

 

First, let me say that I think his players like him, and play hard for him. I would want a guy like Ozzie to play for if I was a ball player, for sure. My issues with Ozzie are purely on field decisions that he makes during the game. BTW, I can careless about any media crap that happens either, it's hyped overblown crap that doesn't affect our performance as a team (at least I'd like to believe we're stronger than that).

 

1) Ozzie overplaying the "lefty on lefty" scenario, even when, as an example, Neal Cotts was better against righties (AND EVEN SAID SO HIMSELF). Cotts couldn't hit the strike zone against lefties unless it was right down the middle in 2006. We have similar stuff going on with Thorton this year, although to not that degree. What happened to the "feel of the game" where you feel someone could close the door on an inning or game? Last night I wanted to see Logan finish off the inning against Hunter. I am not sure why, but I did. I felt he could get the job done. I wish we saw a bit more of this from Ozzie.

 

2) Leaving in the starters too long. Leaving in Contreras last night is a perfect example. After the first guy gets on, pull him! This was one of those times I was screaming at him last night!

 

I'll leave the rest of the comments for you guys- interested in where you think Oz could improve as the White Sox manager, and PLEASE, be specific!!

Edited May 29, 2007 by JohnCangelosi

[Kyyle23]

You could have just titled the thread "Fathom, whitesox101, What do you think of Ozzie?" and left it at that.

 

[JohnCangelosi]

You could have just titled the thread "Fathom, whitesox101, What do you think of Ozzie?" and left it at that.

 

LOL- actually, I am interested in hearing what those guys have to say, so bring it on! All I ask is that it's legitimate criticism and not some nonsensical stuff that we tend to get sometimes on this forum.

[RME JICO]

I will base my comments off what I can see, because the whole "players love him" thing is too much speculation.

 

Positives -

1. Handling of Danks. I feel like Ozzie is actually handling Danks' starts pretty good. He pulls him at a comfortable spot and doesn't let him leave with a bad taste in his mouth.

 

2. Use of Jenks. Ozzie has been really good lately when using Jenks.

 

3. Confidence in players. The one thing you can see is that Ozzie allows a player to work out his kinks, and gives him every opportunity to get out of a slump or rut.

 

Negatives -

 

1. Handling of rest of pitching staff. He seems to be going off something other than logic, especially when a pitcher has struggled all night. I have no complaints when he runs guys out there when they are clearly pitching strong, but it seems like he plays Russian Roulette when they are off - and he always loses.

 

2. Matchup craziness. Ozzie does this more than anyone in baseball, and it is better when used in moderation. He is like a matchup addict. I can't remember the exact game, but Ozzie brought in a reliever to face one batter who the other team just pinch hit for once Ozzie made the call to the pen. He looked so silly in that situation because the PH got a hit and we ultimately lost the game and ended up using like 6 pitchers in a 9 inning game.

 

3. Pinch Hitters. He was doing ok in this department until recently. With the game close, he pinch hit for Cintron with Ozuna, then had Erstad bat vs a LHP? I am still baffled by that whole sequence. Both Terrero and Hall were available on the bench.

 

I would almost like to see Ozzie take a week off (suspension/etc) to see what someone like Shines could do.

 

Also, I am wondering if Cora on the bench has anything to do with some of his questionable decisions.

[whitesoxfan101]

His season last year was one of the worst I've ever seen at any level, and I'd still contest he cost us a playoff spot. However this year, he hasn't been bad at all. Ozzie always has and always will leave starting pitchers in too long, but with this bullpen, can you blame him?? At least he had 3 really good arms for almost all of last year, right now other than Jenks and somewhat Thornton, our entire bullpen are GM was supposed to fix was crap. Beyond that, my issues with Ozzie this year are things like wanting Andy Gonzalez on the 25 and such, but those are philosophy issues and not in game managing ones. He has the 3rd best team in the AL Central and that is where we are in the standings. No surprise. If his GM would do what he said he would and fix the damn bullpen maybe we could get Ozzie to a point where it's "his fault", but that's a long way off.

[joeynach]

Ok, this is not meant to be an "Ozzie bashing" thread even though it may turn out to be...

 

But after watching him manage, there are a few specific things he does that I find myself screaming at the TV that I wanted to share, and hear other things from other Sox fans on where you think he could improve as the manager.

 

First, let me say that I think his players like him, and play hard for him. I would want a guy like Ozzie to play for if I was a ball player, for sure. My issues with Ozzie are purely on field decisions that he makes during the game. BTW, I can careless about any media crap that happens either, it's hyped overblown crap that doesn't affect our performance as a team (at least I'd like to believe we're stronger than that).

 

1) Ozzie overplaying the "lefty on lefty" scenario, even when, as an example, Neal Cotts was better against righties (AND EVEN SAID SO HIMSELF). Cotts couldn't hit the strike zone against lefties unless it was right down the middle in 2006. We have similar stuff going on with Thorton this year, although to not that degree. What happened to the "feel of the game" where you feel someone could close the door on an inning or game? Last night I wanted to see Logan finish off the inning against Hunter. I am not sure why, but I did. I felt he could get the job done. I wish we saw a bit more of this from Ozzie.

 

2) Leaving in the starters too long. Leaving in Contreras last night is a perfect example. After the first guy gets on, pull him! This was one of those times I was screaming at him last night!

 

I'll leave the rest of the comments for you guys- interested in where you think Oz could improve as the White Sox manager, and PLEASE, be specific!!

 

My problem with Ozzie is similar to yours with the way he handles the starters. I know he tries to get a lot out of them, but we shouldn’t be trying to get extra innings/outs from our starters when its obvious they are getting hit pretty hard and don’t have it. The whole "try and get extra outs out of him" theory only works if your guys are not giving up 10 hits and 3 walks through 5 innings. When you pitchers arelaboring to get through innings, no matter if we are winning, losing, or tied why keep trotting him out there just waiting for the other team to eventually stack the hits and walk together and lead to a big inning. It only works when your guy is keeping the hitters off balance, getting ahead, scattering a few hits, etc.

 

The last two games with Vazquez and Contreras it was obvious our guys didn’t have their “A” stuff. They were consistently pitching behind, having a little trouble locating, and getting hit hard (weather the ball was a hit or an out). That’s the point, that you should make your determination if your starter should be trusted to get through an extra inning or so by the ebb and flow of the game. It was 100% obvious both Sunday and Monday that at the point in the 6th inning in both games if you left your starters in there was going to be base runners. And the only way you would get out of the innings unscaved is if the defense makes a play, the sox got lucky, or the hard hit balls get hit right at somebody. Unfortunately for the sox it usually come right at the wrong time. Right after we tie the game, get the lead, or right when the other team gets to their big hitters or top of the lineup. Like in the Sunday game a 4-4 tie goin into the 6th. The whole game Javy is laboring and giving up a lot of hits. The 5th inning you get out facing the bottom of the order. We all know once the good hitters come up with Javy on his “b” game his gonna get hit. And then your going to be forced to bring in your relievers in bad situations with runners and base and no room for error. Same thing with Jose yesterday. He was getting hit pretty hard all game, behind in most at bats. In the 6th inning the sox take the lead. If you bring Jose out there in the bottom of the 6th its not gonna be an easy inning, its not gonna be 1,2,3 if he hadn’t been pitching his "A" game the whole game. Jose is gonna labor, hes gonna give up some hits/walks and he is gonna put the sox in position to lose the game. Once again forcing the pen to come in with bases loaded no out and no room for error again. If you keep doing that u are going to fail and lose games period.

 

My problem is Ozzie is rather reactive to his use of the bullpen, changes pitchers after a guy gets knocked around or fails, but never before. When the game was 4-3 in the 6th yesterday Ozzie should have brought Logan or Masset or anybody else before the top of the twins lineup comes up, before the Jose labors and gives up a couple hits or walks and has to face the quality hitters. We just don’t see the mentality off this from him and its really a shame..

Edited May 29, 2007 by joeynach

[EvilMonkey]

I've never liked his handling of the pitching staff in general, although I will conceed that I believe he is handling Danks very well. The rest of the staff, not so much.

[caulfield12]

Our bullpen is garbage. If he had the Angels' bullpen, or the 2005 White Sox pen, we'd be in a lot better shape. Considering the way Aardsma, MacDougal and Sisco have pitched recently, we're lucky to be over .500 still, with our offense still abysmal. Masset is our best righty now, and he shouldn't be in the bullpen, as he appears to be better suited to starting.

 

The fact of the matter is that we're a .500 team, and will undoubtedly be within 6-7 games over .500 (both over and under) for the season, unless we make a major offensive addition to the line-up. Nobody's counting on Pods coming back at 100%, unless those were the same people who picked Mark Prior and Kerry Wood for their fantasy league teams.

[Wedge]

In the past, Ozzie has perhaps demanded almost too much from his starters. In 2005 it worked, in 2004 it did not. In 2006 and 2007 it is working reasonably well. As was previously indicated, I believe that Ozzie is relying so heavily on the starters this year is because he knows his bullpen isn't worth a s*** (or that is his belief which isn't unfounded). If he can't squeeze an extra out or two from his starter, he believes he's going to lose the game anyway.

[joeynach]

In the past, Ozzie has perhaps demanded almost too much from his starters. In 2005 it worked, in 2004 it did not. In 2006 and 2007 it is working reasonably well. As was previously indicated, I believe that Ozzie is relying so heavily on the starters this year is because he knows his bullpen isn't worth a s*** (or that is his belief which isn't unfounded). If he can't squeeze an extra out or two from his starter, he believes he's going to lose the game anyway.

 

Thats defiantly true I wouldn't trust the pen either. Although Masset is a bright spot despite his ERA. He usually doesn't work from behind in the count and doesn't give up a lot of HR. Yeah I dont want to auto replace our starters with the clown car or AArdsma/Sisco/McDougal/etc if those guys show they cant get anybody out, but there is always an alternative. Masset, Logan, are not that bad and can be better alternatives than a Contreras laboring to get by who as already given up 8 hits, 3 runs, 3 walks, and a hit batter through 5 innings. Ozzie is just trotting him out there and crossing his fingers, just hoping he can make it through the inning without surrendering the lead. Thats still a good way to lose.

[chisoxfan79]

My problems with Ozzie are the same as everybody else I hate the righty-lefty crap he needs to look at the numbers before he makes the move I remember back in 05 everytime we played the Indians he would go get Marte to face Hafner and Hafner would get him every time I think he was 7 for 8 against him that year or a couple of weeks ago when we lost that extra inning game against the Twins in the 10th inning when he took out Sisco and put in Masset to face Cuddyer even though Cuddyer hit RH better than LH and that left Masset in for Cuddyer and Morneau who also mashes righties and has trouble with lefties, also I think he needs to recognize when one of his starters doesn't have it

[Controlled Chaos]

I use almost the same post everytime this stuff comes up...

 

I think managing takes a little bit of smarts. Not just baseball smarts, but educational smarts. When it comes to thinking, Ozzie will fail everytime. He has no education. It's not his fault...he is just an uneducated man. He is a a fun baseball guy, and played the game well, but logic?? smarts?? educated decisions?? not so much. He was raised, not in a classroom, but on a ball field. Does that equate to being a good manager? I don't think so. I think it takes more than that. Playing the righty righty lefty lefty matchup doesn't take a whole lot of brains, but knowing how your lefty handles rightys or vice versa might take some thinking or studying. This is where Ozzie is sorely lacking.

 

 

"I swear to God, you can put me in Harvard, you can put me in any college in (the) United States, and you ask me a question, I will answer..."

 

yes Ozzie you will answer...you will be wrong of course, but yes you will answer. Big deal. A 4 year old can answer wrong. What you need to do is work on getting it right!!

[elrockinMT]

If you win your a genius and if you lose you suck as a manager. Bottom line is that the team didn't perform and I am not sure Ozzie can do much about that at all.

[The Ginger Kid]

It's a question of talent. Maybe Ozzie could make a move here or there that could win a few games over the course of the season, but I don't know. It still comes down to talent and the White Sox don't have the talent of the Red Sox, Tigers or Indians. So I'm going to watch this season with the hope that they remain competetive and maybe, just maybe, find themselves with a chance at the post season in September.

[StrangeSox]

It's a question of talent. Maybe Ozzie could make a move here or there that could win a few games over the course of the season, but I don't know. It still comes down to talent and the White Sox don't have the talent of the Red Sox, Tigers or Indians. So I'm going to watch this season with the hope that they remain competetive and maybe, just maybe, find themselves with a chance at the post season in September.

 

And that can be the difference between winning the division or sitting at home for the playoffs, like last year.

[dagotony06]

My problem with Ozzie is that he didn't quit after the 2005 season like he said he was gonna.

[mmmmmbeeer]

I can think of 3 games off the top of my head when the opponent had runners on 2nd and 3rd w/ 0 or 1 outs and he absolutely REFUSES to walk the bases loaded, even if there is a better matchup waiting in the on-deck circle. Yesterday in MIN is one of the 3 games when he decided to have Count pitch to Punto? who has hit like .500 against the Count in his career. Meanwhile, Cuddyer is on deck who hits Count at like a .200 clip. Stupid moves like that remind me of a rebellious teenager...they know what they're about to do is wrong but, just to show how bad ass they are, they do it anyway.

[Wedge]

And that can be the difference between winning the division or sitting at home for the playoffs, like last year.

 

But you can't use a greedy approach like that. Suppose you are a manager and you can use philosophy/strategy A or B. A will win you some games you would lose with B and B will lose you some games you would win with A. You also have to realize even if A or B is "correct" choice over the other in a given situation, the player still must perform and you might still well lose. As Bill Parcells says, "You are what you are for a reason." It's no use playing armchair manager like that.

[RockRaines]

How long are we going to continue to blame this teams struggles on the manager and not the players responsible. I hope everyone enjoys watching Buehrle and others get traded at the deadline this year, because the offense decided to mail it in for 2 months.

[Steff]

How long are we going to continue to blame this teams struggles on the manager and not the players responsible. I hope everyone enjoys watching Buehrle and others get traded at the deadline this year, because the offense decided to mail it in for 2 months.

 

 

 

This monster was created when folks chose to give all the credit to Kenny and Ozzie for winning the world series and will go on until a new manager and gm win another....

[fathom]

This monster was created when folks chose to give all the credit to Kenny and Ozzie for winning the world series and will go on until a new manager and gm win another....

 

I think another monster was created after winning the WS, and that was the monster known as the arrogance of KW and Ozzie.

[Steff]

I think another monster was created after winning the WS, and that was the monster known as the arrogance of KW and Ozzie.

 

 

Noted, agree, though I think that's a different animal. To Rock's point, many fans refuse to lay the blame for the current crap on those responsible.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 29, 2007 -> 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think another monster was created after winning the WS, and that was the monster known as the arrogance of KW and Ozzie.

 

You are confusing arrogance with confidence/competitive nature but seeing as you want them both fired ASAP I can understand why you say that.

[StrangeSox]

Noted, agree, though I think that's a different animal. To Rock's point, many fans refuse to lay the blame for the current crap on those responsible.

 

It's easier to criticize and critique decisions than it is to critique play on the field.

 

We can all say "Ozzie should have pulled pitcher XXX in situation YYY, it was very obvious and made the most logical sense." We can all b**** about KW not really doing too much this off season. Those are things that we feel we could change or that we could do properly, in a sense.

 

Saying "Konerko should really hit some singles to the gaps" doesn't go very far. Of course he should. There's not much discussion there.

[WCSox]

2005 was mostly the result of a few players having career years (Garland, Cotts, Politte, Hermanson), others having near-career years (Buehrle, Garcia), and a few more getting hot down the stretch (Contreras, Crede, Jenks). That said, I don't think that they would've gone all of the way without the intensity brought to the team by Ozzie and AJ and the cameraderie between guys like AJ, Crede, and Rowand. That intensity carried over into last year, where a team with below-average pitching went on to win 90 games in the toughest division in baseball.

 

As much as some people like to throw Ozzie and KW under the bus for their arrogance, what they brought to the organization worked pretty well for two years. Their time may be up, but it's difficult to argue with their track record.