Ozzie Guillen

[fathom]

You are confusing arrogance with confidence/competitive nature but seeing as you want them both fired ASAP I can understand why you say that.

 

There wasn't a bigger fan of KW during the offseason prior to 2005 than myself. He was making moves that made sense. Hell, I even agreed with the Lee for Pods deal. However, after the 2005 season, he became arrogant and thought that Cooper could fix any pitcher and that Ozzie would gel any combination of players into a championship team. KW's comments during this last offseason were pathetic though.

 

2005 was mostly the result of a few players having career years (Garland, Cotts, Politte, Hermanson), others having near-career years (Buehrle, Garcia), and a few more getting hot down the stretch (Contreras, Crede, Jenks). That said, I don't think that they would've gone all of the way without the intensity brought to the team by Ozzie and AJ and the cameraderie between guys like AJ, Crede, and Rowand. That intensity carried over into last year, where a team with below-average pitching went on to win 90 games in the toughest division in baseball.

 

As much as some people like to throw Ozzie and KW under the bus for their arrogance, what they brought to the organization worked pretty well for two years. Their time may be up, but it's difficult to argue with their track record.

 

If you're going to give the "arrogance" credit for their 2006 win total, then why aren't they criticized for blowing a 6 game Wild Card lead at the All-Star break? Whatever Ozzie was doing right from the start of the 2005 season to the 2006 ASB is no longer working, as we've played below .500 for far too long now.

[Dick Allen]

Put it this way, there is no one who thinks KW and Ozzie are more responsible for a White Sox World Championship than KW and Ozzie.

[WCSox]

If you're going to give the "arrogance" credit for their 2006 win total, then why aren't they criticized for blowing a 6 game Wild Card lead at the All-Star break? Whatever Ozzie was doing right from the start of the 2005 season to the 2006 ASB is no longer working, as we've played below .500 for far too long now.

 

So are you laying the blame on Ozzie for the Sox blowing a 6-game WC lead at the break? What about their below-average pitching last year? Don't you think that may have been more to blame? Do you blame Ozzie for a lineup of veterans who haven't been hitting this year? Or a bullpen that's been sucking big-time for the past month and a half?

[fathom]

So are you laying the blame on Ozzie for the Sox blowing a 6-game WC lead at the break? What about their below-average pitching last year? Don't you think that may have been more to blame? Do you blame Ozzie for a lineup of veterans who haven't been hitting this year? Or a bullpen that's been sucking big-time for the past month and a half?

 

You said you'd give him a lot of credit for motivating the 2005 team. That's fine....I agree he had the perfect temper for that type of team. However, the 2006 and 2007 team are very different, especially in regards to personnel. I don't think Ozzie's style fits this personnel at all. In sports, when almost every aspect of your team is struggling, then that's when coaches start to get fired.

[WCSox]

You said you'd give him a lot of credit for motivating the 2005 team. That's fine....I agree he had the perfect temper for that type of team. However, the 2006 and 2007 team are very different, especially in regards to personnel. I don't think Ozzie's style fits this personnel at all. In sports, when almost every aspect of your team is struggling, then that's when coaches start to get fired.

 

I don't understand how the 2006 and 2007 squads are so tremendously different from the '05 team in terms of personnel. Sure, there's been some turnover, but not a tremendous amount.

 

I agree that Ozzie's unconventional style can be problematic at times, but I'll take his kick-in-the-pants style of managing over Jerry Manuel's style of "managing" any day. Especially for this under-achieving squad that needs a flame lit under their collective ass right now.

[fathom]

I don't understand how the 2006 and 2007 squads are so tremendously different from the '05 team in terms of personnel. Sure, there's been some turnover, but not a tremendous amount.

 

I agree that Ozzie's unconventional style can be problematic at times, but I'll take his kick-in-the-pants style of managing over Jerry Manuel's style of "managing" any day. Especially for this under-achieving squad that needs a flame lit under their collective ass right now.

 

When you replace Carl Everett with Jim Thome, you no longer should be bunting in the 1-2 spots of the lineup. When you have such a powerful 3-4-5 like the Sox have had in 2006 and 2007, you should have high OBP guys at the top of the order and screw the speed factor. However, Ozzie always has to have his slappy guys at the top of the order. I never said I blame Ozzie for this entire mess. It's just like what Dick Allen so accurately described.....no one thinks they had more of an impact on winning than KW and Ozzie.

Edited May 29, 2007 by fathom

[WCSox]

When you replace Carl Everett with Jim Thome, you no longer should be bunting in the 1-2 spots of the lineup. When you have such a powerful 3-4-5 like the Sox have had in 2006 and 2007, you should have high OBP guys at the top of the order and screw the speed factor. However, Ozzie always has to have his slappy guys at the top of the order.

 

I have no problem with Erstad and Iguchi hitting in the 1- and 2-slots, respectively. Especially when there aren't very many high-OBP guys on this team at all right now. Who else did you have in mind?

 

I never said I blame Ozzie for this entire mess. It's just like what Dick Allen so accurately described.....no one thinks they had more of an impact on winning than KW and Ozzie.

 

I more or less agree with that. Ozzie is the kind of guy who you'd want to buy for what he's worth and sell for what he thinks he's worth. That said, until he puts up back-to-back mediocre seasons and/or goes over the top with his mouth, I don't see him going anywhere.

 

KW, on the other hand, just might be half as good as he thinks he is. Trading Thome and only taking on half of his remaining contract was brilliant, as was getting Gio back from the Phillies and forcing them to eat the remaining $10 million on Freddy's deal. And the Danks/Massett-for-McCarthy deal is looking like a steal right now as well. Until he makes Todd Ritchie II and III deals, I don't see him going anywhere any time soon.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 29, 2007 -> 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There wasn't a bigger fan of KW during the offseason prior to 2005 than myself. He was making moves that made sense. Hell, I even agreed with the Lee for Pods deal. However, after the 2005 season, he became arrogant and thought that Cooper could fix any pitcher and that Ozzie would gel any combination of players into a championship team. KW's comments during this last offseason were pathetic though.

 

See, you keep saying arrogance like it's written in stone. Or true. What you see as arrogance is confidence in his staff, confidence in his talent evaluators, confidence in his coaches and players. What exactly is wrong with him showing confidence?

 

Granted he may have made some player personnel errors in judgement, but using the word arrogance to describe their approach or demeanor is frankly just peeing into the wind and seeing where it lands. Well I call BS. Williams especially cares very very deeply and he trusts his people and he is not afraid. Which I believe he's demostrated more than once. Infallable? No. Arrogant? maybe in a message board world but not in real life.

 

QUOTE(WCSox @ May 29, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So are you laying the blame on Ozzie for the Sox blowing a 6-game WC lead at the break? What about their below-average pitching last year? Don't you think that may have been more to blame? Do you blame Ozzie for a lineup of veterans who haven't been hitting this year? Or a bullpen that's been sucking big-time for the past month and a half?

 

I agree with this. Guillen and Williams make mistakes and they are not perfect. One big error they are making in my opinion is the Cintron situation. He is nowhere near 100% and it's doubtful he will be 100 percent in 2007. They should have had somebody not named Andy Gonzalez with some speed stashed in triple A.

 

If what I hear from guys close to the team is true though you can bet they are looking outside to find a good OF who will help turn this thing around. Is the right guy available, probably not right now but things can change.

[whitesoxfan101]

Noted, agree, though I think that's a different animal. To Rock's point, many fans refuse to lay the blame for the current crap on those responsible.

 

Everybody is responsible this year, although I'd put Ozzie below KW, our minor league scouts, Greg Walker, and the players this year on the totem pole. It's going to take me a long time to forgive Ozzie for 2006 though.

[joeynach]

Noted, agree, though I think that's a different animal. To Rock's point, many fans refuse to lay the blame for the current crap on those responsible.

 

I think everyone realizes KW lack of viable players at positions like SS,LF,CF, etc. Everyone in this town wanted an upgrade at all those positions and we got nothing and Erstad. Thats on the GM. Pods is fragile and a bad fielder and streaky, and Uribe is terrible and sports the worst OBP in baseball and KW does nothing.

[Steff]

I think everyone realizes KW lack of viable players at positions like SS,LF,CF, etc. Everyone in this town wanted an upgrade at all those positions and we got nothing and Erstad. Thats on the GM. Pods is fragile and a bad fielder and streaky, and Uribe is terrible and sports the worst OBP in baseball and KW does nothing.

 

 

 

Another post blaming those at the desks. Yes, an upgrade would have been nice. But it didn't happen. So rather than blame the crap ON THE FIELD, continue to blame those upstairs. Makes no sense to me. These guys are MAJOR LEAGUE BALL PLAYERS. When they can't complete a play they should have learned in t-ball then they are to blame. JMO, of course...

[StrangeSox]

Another post blaming those at the desks. Yes, an upgrade would have been nice. But it didn't happen. So rather than blame the crap ON THE FIELD, continue to blame those upstairs. Makes no sense to me. These guys are MAJOR LEAGUE BALL PLAYERS. When they can't complete a play they should have learned in t-ball then they are to blame. JMO, of course...

 

That crap wouldn't be on the field if KW had made the moves. Yes, they're MLB players, but they're not very good ones.

[Steff]

That crap wouldn't be on the field if KW had made the moves. Yes, they're MLB players, but they're not very good ones.

 

 

But of course.

 

I wish I worked at a job where I could eff up left and right and not be forced to take responsibility.

[StrangeSox]

But of course.

 

I wish I worked at a job where I could eff up left and right and not be forced to take responsibility.

 

Like KW and Ozzie?

 

The under-performing players take plenty of flak here.

[caulfield12]

I think everyone realizes KW lack of viable players at positions like SS,LF,CF, etc. Everyone in this town wanted an upgrade at all those positions and we got nothing and Erstad. Thats on the GM. Pods is fragile and a bad fielder and streaky, and Uribe is terrible and sports the worst OBP in baseball and KW does nothing.

 

 

Erstad and Pods (if healthy, another KW miscalculation) would have been fine if Crede, Thome, Konerko, Dye, Iguchi and even AJ were providing their "normal" power numbers.

 

We could live with the numbers of those two, and even Uribe, if the other six guys were playing at the level we expected, with a regression to mean plugged into the equation for JD.

 

KW had one of the best "low cost/value" signings of the offseason in Erstad (for a bad one, see Toma Ohka and how far going cheap went for the Blue Jays in their rotation). If we didn't have him, we'd be stuck with Owens or Sweeney or Mackowiak out there again, assuming BA is really so far in the doghouse that nothing can rescue him.

 

Then you have the "misses" on Sisco and the general struggling of the youngish bullpen, which has been an unexpected development, since it was the ONE area most Sox fans saw an improvement from 2006. In fact, after last night, we're sitting in the mid 5's in terms of Bullpen ERA and last in the AL.

 

Combine that with the lack of speed on this team and we're now the Oakland A's without the same quality of pitching, 1-12, on their MLB roster.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ May 30, 2007 -> 08:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erstad and Pods (if healthy, another KW miscalculation) would have been fine if Crede, Thome, Konerko, Dye, Iguchi and even AJ were providing their "normal" power numbers.

 

Good point, Crede Konerko Dye and Iguchi are underperforming badly.

 

Every GM gambles each offseason. If you gamble too much you lose. White Sox took a lot of risks betting things would go right. Things have not gone right in lots of ways.

 

My guess is the trade market is not open yet all across baseball. I suppose that is normal for end of May. So what do you do. You either stick with your guys and hope they come back to the mean or you rely on your minor league system to give you a spark with a hot hand. Sox have few if any really hot hands at Charlotte or AA. Maybe Owens is due for a look as was mentioned by a poster last eve. Last night was an embarassment and Jackson really called them out on the broadcast. Loved it!

 

One thing i will say is I have seen quite enough of Uribe. Love his defense in general but he is not a heady baseball player, messes up at bats, and does not appear to be a captain out there in the IF. Don't know how you replace him but for one I have seen enough.

[caulfield12]

Good point, Crede Konerko Dye and Iguchi are underperforming badly.

 

Every GM gambles each offseason. If you gamble too much you lose. White Sox took a lot of risks betting things would go right. Things have not gone right in lots of ways.

 

My guess is the trade market is not open yet all across baseball. I suppose that is normal for end of May. So what do you do. You either stick with your guys and hope they come back to the mean or you rely on your minor league system to give you a spark with a hot hand. Sox have few if any really hot hands at Charlotte or AA. Maybe Owens is due for a look as was mentioned by a poster last eve. Last night was an embarassment and Jackson really called them out on the broadcast. Loved it!

 

One thing i will say is I have seen quite enough of Uribe. Love his defense in general but he is not a heady baseball player, messes up at bats, and does not appear to be a captain out there in the IF. Don't know how you replace him but for one I have seen enough.

 

 

It seems strange to be saying, we need to get rid of Uribe, as he's supposed to be in the "prime" of his career, as he just turned 28. When you consider the probability we'll lose or trade Crede, that gives us a player (starter) younger than 30 at which positions?

 

Konerko is 31, so after Uribe and Crede, he would have to be the player considered closer to the highest level of productivity...and therein lies the problem.

 

We're simply old, and the players who are not old (Konerko and Crede) are slow. So we're old and slow, a deadly combination without great starting pitching, bullpen, defense and clutch hitting.

 

At some point this season, we'll be playing Terrero, Owens, Sweeney and Fields to see what we have for 2008. I think BA is likely to get traded, as I don't see Ozzie quitting or KW getting fired any time soon.

 

Terrero just turned 27 and Owens is already 26, so we're behind the curve with those guys, but we have little or no choice for now. Pods and Cintron aren't the future of this organization, so even the Andy Gonzalezes of the world should get some at-bats to see what they can do.

 

''This is a different situation,'' Jones said. ''[The Twins were] a bunch of guys who came up together, they played together, took their lumps together and got better together. Here, you bring different guys in from different places, and you've got to mesh and learn to play together and feel each other out. It takes a little time. But we have a good group (speaking about the Cubs).''

 

I think KW brought in so many different players in 06 and 07 that the White Sox are essentially having the same problem as the Cubs. He might have tinkered too much. I'm not going to pronounce that Rowand and Chris Young patrolling our outfield would have us in first place or even above 85 wins...and I think almost all of KW's moves in the offseason after the World Series were warmly greeted, with the exception of the Vazquez move, and that one was understandable, as it made more sense to go all out to get back to the playoffs in 2006. Now it looks like a bad move, we'll see what he gets in return for Javier or one of the other pitchers he might trade to bring in an outfielder comparable to Young. Even then, it's creating a weakness, unless you consider Masset, Gio, Russell or Floyd capable of being the fifth starter.

Edited May 30, 2007 by caulfield12