Disaster

[daa84]

Reyes isn't a gem. He's a Cliff Politte, Matt Karchner, Neal Cotts...a guy who puts together an awesome season and disappears.

i agree....but finding him for that one year....wouldnt you call that a gem? id say in 05 we found 3 gems in cotts hermie and politte...at least for that year, the difference is the twins are smart enough to realize it and replace those guys instead of counting on them like we did

[Soxfest]

It's amusing to me that with all of the Twins success under their current regime, we're the one with the World Series crown. I assume you're like me Steff, and you realize just how magical the 2005 season was with every passing day.

 

Blind squirrel finds a 2005 acorn sometimes!

[fathom]

It is easy, as you seem to do most games the last 10 days, to scapegoat the manager. The reality is it is much more than that.

 

I think there's a plethora of things going on these days causing us to lose. However, we need better strategical managing to help this team when certain personnel is struggling. Aardsma can't have any confidence these days, yet we brought him into possibly the most difficult position a reliever can find himself in. After seeing Aardsma walk the bases loaded in his last game, I'll take my chances with the solid control of Jenks. And if a K isn't critical, then Jenks is definitely a better option than Aardsma, as Jenks hasn't allowed a homer all season.

[AirScott]

i agree....but finding him for that one year....wouldnt you call that a gem? id say in 05 we found 3 gems in cotts hermie and politte...at least for that year, the difference is the twins are smart enough to realize it and replace those guys instead of counting on them like we did

But Politte and Cotts always had the potential to be good, anyway. While we weren't expected them to put up astronomical numbers again, they were expected to fall into the range of "dependable," even more so in Cotts case, as he was projected to be a starter.

[fathom]

But Politte and Cotts always had the potential to be good, anyway. While we weren't expected them to put up astronomical numbers again, they were expected to fall into the range of "dependable," even more so in Cotts case, as he was projected to be a starter.

 

Cotts allowed one homer during the entire 2005 season, and that's coming from someone with a 91 mph high fastball as his main pitch. It was possibly the luckiest individual season I've ever seen. Heck, I still don't know how Mike Lamb swung through that fastball in game 1 to strike out in the 8th inning.

[daa84]

It's amusing to me that with all of the Twins success under their current regime, we're the one with the World Series crown. I assume you're like me Steff, and you realize just how magical the 2005 season was with every passing day.

its funny cuz after 05 i simply had expected this team to play like its the best team in the league. all throughout last year i felt like we were or should have been the best, but as time has gone on i have realized that for that stretch of time (05), we were the best, and those days are gone....if this was 2004, i wouldn't be happy with the way the sox were playing, but i wouldnt be nearly as upset as i am now, as all i hoped for was 86-90 wins...after 05 i expected better, and now like you, im starting to realize that the best i can hope for is to be in that 85+ win category, and anything beyond that is simply something that is only gonna happen in those magical type years, and maybe i should be more content with the fact that at very least we are .500 and still not 100% out of competing for the playoffs

Edited May 30, 2007 by daa84

[fathom]

its funny cuz after 05 i simply had expected this team to play like its the best team in the league. all throughout last year i felt like we were, but as time has gone on i have realized that for that stretch of time, we were, and those days are gone....if this was 2004, i wouldn't be happy with the way the sox were playing, as all i hoped for was 86-90 wins...after 05 i expected better, and now like you, im starting to realize that the best i can hope for is to be in that 85+ win category, and anything beyond that is simply something that is only gonna happen in those magical type years

 

I'm just so happy they capitalized on "our year". A lot of teams have a magical season, but they can't finish it off. Like you said, we were the best overall team for the majority of the 2005 season. Ever since the ASB last year, we're nowhere near that.

[daa84]

I'm just so happy they capitalized on "our year". A lot of teams have a magical season, but they can't finish it off. Like you said, we were the best overall team for the majority of the 2005 season. Ever since the ASB last year, we're nowhere near that.

i know you are mr. pessimism, but isnt it remarkable that we are only 3 back in losses out of hte W.C.?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

It's amusing to me that with all of the Twins success under their current regime, we're the one with the World Series crown. I assume you're like me Steff, and you realize just how magical the 2005 season was with every passing day.

 

It was a thing of beauty how it all came together.

 

And I don't call it luck because that team just went out there and performed. A lot of us followed that team day in and day out and saw it with our own eyes.

 

Personally, I think an important reason for us to have gone out the couple of years following the championship and continued to play great, while maybe not necessarily winning it all again but making the playoff appearance we should have last year, for example, was to prove it was not a fluke year along with solidifying the organization as a top-tier type.

 

Regardless, I luv that season.

[Soxfest]

Walker told all the guys to save there hits for the Toronto series after the 3rd inning and they listened!

[Steff]

i know you are mr. pessimism, but isnt it remarkable that we are only 3 back in losses out of hte W.C.?

 

 

 

Imagine if this was Yankees talk. There'd be an instructional forum for ways to commit suicide.

[fathom]

i know you are mr. pessimism, but isnt it remarkable that we are only 3 back in losses out of hte W.C.?

 

Yeah, but I haven't even looked at that. Until we start playing good baseball, I won't even think of this being a playoff team. The sad thing is that I really feel the Yankees and Indians will be our biggest competitors for the WC, as I don't think the Twins have enough this year.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there's a plethora of things going on these days causing us to lose. However, we need better strategical managing to help this team when certain personnel is struggling. Aardsma can't have any confidence these days, yet we brought him into possibly the most difficult position a reliever can find himself in. After seeing Aardsma walk the bases loaded in his last game, I'll take my chances with the solid control of Jenks. And if a K isn't critical, then Jenks is definitely a better option than Aardsma, as Jenks hasn't allowed a homer all season.

 

Hmmm, ok well they both are averaging about a walk every other inning (Jenks + Aards.) Again it was all about getting an out, what does allowing homers have to do with it, zip.

 

Sure I would like a do-over and see if Jenks could have got the out but that won't happen. Why does Gardenhire bring in Nathan in a nonsave, to me its simple, he knows the White Sox have guys with trouble throwing strikes and further he knows he has patient hitters who will scrap out a run.

 

Connecting the dots again, the players have to execute or you fix the players or you get better players. Also for whatever reason Jenks has trouble in those non save situations, don't know why but if he brings in Jenks and Jenks lets Hunter get on there will surely be people and press and announcers saying Jenks does bad in those situations so why did the mgr bring him in. Catch 22. What is not a catch22 is the players are not executing and they can't seem to start executing and as I said some of that blame goes to the coaches and mgr who are supposed to prepare these guys. Rephrase, help prepare these guys. It is not about which righthander can't throw one single strike. It is about all these guys underperforming and not playing smart.

Edited May 30, 2007 by 29thandPoplar

[fathom]

In the month of May, Jenks has a 0.00 ERA and a WHIP blow 1. During that same span, Aardsma's ERA is 9.00 and his WHIP is around 2.25. For the biggest out of the game, and in a walk-off situation, you better have Jenks on the mound. I don't think there's anyone on here that would have been mad at Ozzie if Jenks came in and allowed the run to score.

Edited May 30, 2007 by fathom

[Harry Chappas]

The problem with the White Sox was epitomized today as I pointed out in the game thread. The inability to recognize the strike zone and make a pitcher work. Did they see more than ten pitches in one inning from the 4th through the 9th? This inability leads to the offense of the opposition feeling a little more comfortable. They do not work a count at all and let the pitcher work himself into trouble.

 

The offense not being able to hit has caused the pressure to build on a somewhat inexperienced bullpen at pitching in pressure situations. The White Sox have not eased the pressure at all. Even when they were winning 10-1 in the 4th.....poof shut out for the last six innings against the Oakland bullpen. Same thing happened today.

 

The White Sox have the resources to overcome a weak farm system, they just aren't using them right.

 

The guy that shoudl be fired....Joey Cora. The fact that Logan has had greater success than Aardesma agaisnt Hunter, not knowing if Pagan was a better hitter right handed or left handed, bringing in a leftie/rightie match-up that blew up in his face (Derek Lee). These are the things that a bench coach needs to do and Cora seems like he does nothing or at least anything he does is wrong. Razor Shines will be the next Terry Bevington BTW.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the month of May, Jenks has a 0.00 ERA and a WHIP blow 1. During that same span, Aardsma's ERA is 9.00 and his WHIP is around 2.25. For the biggest out of the game, and in a walk-off situation, you better have Jenks on the mound. I don't think there's anyone on here that would have been mad at Ozzie if Jenks came in and allowed the run to score.

 

Ahh now the May stats. Mgrs get 2nd guessed all the time adn book it he would have been 2nd guessed but if you say he would not have then ok. The aspect of Jenks not having pitched in 9 days ie the rust factor or he for some reason has trouble in those nonsave spots has nothing to do with it as it does not fit what you wanted, well ok.

 

The players have to execute and most of them did not after the third inning.

[fathom]

Ahh now the May stats. Mgrs get 2nd guessed all the time adn book it he would have been 2nd guessed but if you say he would not have then ok. The aspect of Jenks not having pitched in 9 days ie the rust factor or he for some reason has trouble in those nonsave spots has nothing to do with it as it does not fit what you wanted, well ok.

 

The players have to execute and most of them did not after the third inning.

 

He pitched last Friday. Jenks is the best reliever we have, and it's not even close. Since every single f***ing person on this site was begging for Jenks instead of Aardsma, can we please knock it off about how everyone would have been second guessing Ozzie?

Edited May 30, 2007 by fathom

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He pitched last Friday. Jenks is the best reliever we have, and it's not even close. Since every single f***ing person on this site was begging for Jenks instead of Aardsma, can we please knock it off about how everyone would have been second guessing Ozzie?

 

Another generalization? Everyone on this site, ok, I guess if you say so then it's correct. Not me but I am a nobody on this site I suppose, all I wanted was a guy who could throw strikes and not walk a guy. You know full well people would 2nd guess him for bringing him in to a nonsave but if it makes you feel better to not admit it that is ok by me. He gets 2nd guessed in every loss and from what I see mostly by you. I will continue to state the players need to execute better or fix them or get better players. It was a team loss, offense shut down after 3 ings and how many walks were there. Bobby could have walked the guy, guess what, 2nd guess time, whether you think so or not.

[fathom]

Another generalization? Everyone on this site, ok, I guess if you say so then it's correct. Not me but I am a nobody on this site I suppose, all I wanted was a guy who could throw strikes and not walk a guy. You know full well people would 2nd guess him for bringing him in to a nonsave but if it makes you feel better to not admit it that is ok by me. He gets 2nd guessed in every loss and from what I see mostly by you. I will continue to state the players need to execute better or fix them or get better players. It was a team loss, offense shut down after 3 ings and how many walks were there. Bobby could have walked the guy, guess what, 2nd guess time, whether you think so or not.

 

This is my last post to you about this, as all you're doing is saying that everything is just a "generalization". Yes, I'm one of Ozzie's biggest critics on this site. However, go back and check the game thread if you want. I had no problem with MacDougal starting the 9th inning. I even said that every manager in baseball would do that. However, once it got to the situation where Hunter was the make or break batter for the game, that's when you have to bring in your best reliever. If you don't think that Jenks is our best reliever, then you must be watching a different team play. He's been the lone bright spot for the entire pitching roster the last few weeks.

[AWhiteSoxinNJ]

are bullpen is the worst in baseball.

 

See Phillies.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is my last post to you about this, as all you're doing is saying that everything is just a "generalization". Yes, I'm one of Ozzie's biggest critics on this site. However, go back and check the game thread if you want. I had no problem with MacDougal starting the 9th inning. I even said that every manager in baseball would do that. However, once it got to the situation where Hunter was the make or break batter for the game, that's when you have to bring in your best reliever. If you don't think that Jenks is our best reliever, then you must be watching a different team play. He's been the lone bright spot for the entire pitching roster the last few weeks.

 

Well that's because it is what you're doing, generalizing ie "everyone on this site" "Aardsma cant pitch inside" etc etc. If you don't like being questioned on your generalizations then hey dont make them.

 

What does MacDougal coming in for the 9th have to do with it. The discussion was about Aardsma and Jenks and players performing and Guillen. If you want to bring MacDougal into it, fine, he walked a guy too. Again, players not executing.

 

You are also stating that I apparantly do not think Jenks is the best reliever, please point out where I said that. Generally the best reliever is the closer, he is. Since he has trouble in nonsave situations I believe it is fair game for the mgr to put someone else in there, otherwise he would be 2nd guessed, not that he cares I suspect, but he would be 2nd guessed. I also suspect you would 2nd guess him because as you correctly identify you are one of his biggest critics and I am simply pointing out in my opinion a lot of your criticisms of the mgr are really the players not performing. See if you can get your arms around that. Sorry if you do not seemingly like my debate with you but I struggle with people making generalizations.

 

Bottom line it didnt work out today, and hazarding a guess I would say it was all the walks and the offense failure after three innings and the Twins players getting the job done and the White Sox players didnt.

[southsideirish71]

See Phillies.

 

Their ERA is better than ours. And our WHIP is 1.62 as a relief crew. Only Tampa Bay is behind us.

[StrangeSox]

Their ERA is better than ours. And our WHIP is 1.62 as a relief crew. Only Tampa Bay is behind us.

 

And how about leads/ games blown? I'd imagine this club is near the top. I know they've already blown more than the Twins did all last season.

[fathom]

And how about leads/ games blown? I'd imagine this club is near the top. I know they've already blown more than the Twins did all last season.

 

9 games LOST when leading in the 6th inning or later.

[Kalapse]

If the Sox had any sort of history of second half success from the past few seasons then maybe just maybe being 3 games out of the WC to start June would be a positive. But considering how horrible this team has performed from July - Sept thus far this Century anything short of a 5 game divisional lead at the break isn't going to provide much comfort.