Disaster

[Steff]

garland is getting off the hook so easy with you cliff jumpers. The key part of the game to everyone is not bringing in our closer in a non save situation (which he does pretty terrible in for his career) and watching a pitcher walk in a run without a pitch close to the plate. Dont blame the players who had 20 walks in this series, dont blame the offense who couldnt muster a threat past the 3rd inning, or the starting pitcher who apparently was afraid of a 5 run lead. Blame the manager for making a basic decision that just happened to go wrong. And I thought White Sox fans were known for being knowledgable.

 

 

 

/thread.

[Whitewashed in '05]

Boy am I glad I didn't see todays game...

[fathom]

How about that rolling breaking ball he hit off of Garland? That wasn't a fastball.

 

Bill Melton was on the postgame and he said it ticks him off because other teams know how to get hunter out. Basically you pitch him in on his hands and then he will chase offspeed stuff down and away.

 

Let's face it this was a total team loss.

 

That's another reason Aardsma is a bad match-up. He can't pitch inside against righty hitters. If he tried, his ball would tail right into them and hit them. Hunter might have hit a hanging curve, but everyone knows his best swings are against fastballs. Heck, even Farmer on the radio said that it wasn't a good match-up for the Sox.

[Felix]

To quote IlliniKrush on a previous game in this series:

If you thought watching yesterday's game on TV sucked, you should have watched it surrounded by 27,000 fans wearing Morneau and Mauer jersey shirts like I did.

 

That sure blew.

[daa84]

That's another reason Aardsma is a bad match-up. He can't pitch inside against righty hitters. If he tried, his ball would tail right into them and hit them. Hunter might have hit a hanging curve, but everyone knows his best swings are against fastballs. Heck, even Farmer on the radio said that it wasn't a good match-up for the Sox.

fathom, i agree with what you have said so far, but i fail to see how a fastball running in on teh hands of righties is a disadvantage....i completely agree with you though, that no doubt you want jenks in that situation, i just think you can throw a running fastball into righties without hitting them

Edited May 30, 2007 by daa84

[TheBigHurt]

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ May 30, 2007 -> 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this Chicago sports mentality "fire the coach. fire the coach!! It's really old and tired. If Mac and Ardsma strike out everyone they face, ozzies a god.

 

Where do people get off saying stuff like that? NO, he WOULDN'T. He MIGHT be a bad manager who somehow made a good move? A God... ROFL.

 

We wouldn't know anyway, would we?

[fathom]

garland is getting off the hook so easy with you cliff jumpers. The key part of the game to everyone is not bringing in our closer in a non save situation (which he does pretty terrible in for his career) and watching a pitcher walk in a run without a pitch close to the plate. Dont blame the players who had 20 walks in this series, dont blame the offense who couldnt muster a threat past the 3rd inning, or the starting pitcher who apparently was afraid of a 5 run lead. Blame the manager for making a basic decision that just happened to go wrong. And I thought White Sox fans were known for being knowledgable.

 

I think we'll both agree that losing 9 games so far this year that we were leading during the 6th inning or later has been our biggest downfall. We never, ever extend a lead that we get early, and it always seems like we're just wasting outs until the opposition comes back.

 

 

fathom, i agree with what you have said so far, but i fail to see how a fastball running in on teh hands of righties is a disadvantage....i completely agree with you though, that no doubt you want jenks in that situation, i just think you can throw a running fastball into righties without hitting them

 

Aardsma can't pitch inside to righties. There's a reason that he throws about 95 pct of his fastballs to the outside corner. He's also someone that when he gets adrenaline flowing, he happens to overthrow and his ball tails over the plate more. If AJP set up inside on Hunter, he would have been begging for Aardsma to hit him.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's another reason Aardsma is a bad match-up. He can't pitch inside against righty hitters. If he tried, his ball would tail right into them and hit them. Hunter might have hit a hanging curve, but everyone knows his best swings are against fastballs. Heck, even Farmer on the radio said that it wasn't a good match-up for the Sox.

 

What you said is it was a bad match up because of fastball tendancies. You are making lots of generalizations here with nothing to back it up, other than saying things a million times. Aardsma was pitching damn well inside earlier this year. It's not so much he can't, he showed he could and Sox fans loved him. His confidence and command are awful now and he needs to fix it, preferably in Charlotte for a few weeks IMO.

 

Hunter's best swings are like most players best swings, when pitches stay out over the plate. Hunter has trouble with good sliders.

 

If his best swings, as "everyone knows" are vs. fb's, well what is Jenks best pitch, I believe it is a fastball.

[joeynach]

It's really tough right now. In my head, I know it's good for the Sox to lose, as they have no chance to catch the Indians/Tigers and the best thing that could happen would be to get some talented prospects for our aging veterans. In my heart though, I'm used to watching Sox games that matter and being pissed off if they lose. Sadly, I don't even really have any emotions about them losing today....just annoyed that's it gotten this bad so quickly.

 

What annoys me is that Twins just arent that good. They have no pitchers outside of Santana and Boonser is decent. They have 4 good hitters; Morneau, Hunter, Mauer, Cuddyear and a cast of clown who all struggle to hit .250.

 

What you said is it was a bad match up because of fastball tendancies. You are making lots of generalizations here with nothing to back it up, other than saying things a million times. Aardsma was pitching damn well inside earlier this year. It's not so much he can't, he showed he could and Sox fans loved him. His confidence and command are awful now and he needs to fix it, preferably in Charlotte for a few weeks IMO.

 

Hunter's best swings are like most players best swings, when pitches stay out over the plate. Hunter has trouble with good sliders.

 

If his best swings, as "everyone knows" are vs. fb's, well what is Jenks best pitch, I believe it is a fastball.

 

He was throwing at least 95 every pitch when he was striking those guys out early. Before Mac started struggling Aardsma could just come in and rear back and fire. Now he is trying to be fine cuz he is being used in pressure situations with no room for error, since that role I haven't seen him above 92 on the gun. Terrible.

[Gene Honda Civic]

We're beyond David Weathers at this point...we have two relievers now. Last year we had three.

 

This team and organization are sinking like the Lusitania.

Logan has held lefties to a .174/.208/.217 line this season. I'd say he's an effective reliever, when used properly, of course.

[caulfield12]

What annoys me is that Twins just arent that good. They have no pitchers outside of Santana and Boonser is decent. They have 4 good hitters; Morneau, Hunter, Mauer, Cuddyear and a cast of clown who all struggle to hit .250.

He was throwing at least 95 every pitch when he was striking those guys out early. Before Mac started struggling Aardsma could just come in and rear back and fire. Now he is trying to be fine cuz he is being used in pressure situations with no room for error, since that role I haven't seen him above 92 on the gun. Terrible.

 

 

And that's what Sox fans have been repeating five of the last six years...

 

1) We're more talented

2) It's the Dome's fault

3) They always seem to get lucky breaks

 

Who's responsible for the Twins overachieving and "creating" their own breaks?

 

Who's responsible for the White Sox scraping the bottom of the barrel to figure out new and innovative ways to lose ballgames over and over again to inferior teams?

[fathom]

What you said is it was a bad match up because of fastball tendancies. You are making lots of generalizations here with nothing to back it up, other than saying things a million times. Aardsma was pitching damn well inside earlier this year. It's not so much he can't, he showed he could and Sox fans loved him. His confidence and command are awful now and he needs to fix it, preferably in Charlotte for a few weeks IMO.

 

Hunter's best swings are like most players best swings, when pitches stay out over the plate. Hunter has trouble with good sliders.

 

If his best swings, as "everyone knows" are vs. fb's, well what is Jenks best pitch, I believe it is a fastball.

 

I've seen Aardsma pitch probably more than anyone, as I watch almost all Cubs games also. Aardsma rarely pitched inside at the beginning of the year. Like during that Indians game where he was great, he was just painting the outside corner to righties. The catcher rarely sets up inside for him on the mound. Also, I disagree that Jenks best pitch is his fastball. Jenks fastball is actually his set-up pitch, as he strikes out hitters with his offspeed stuff almost every time. I can think of only a few strike outs he has this year from blowing his fastball past the hitter.

[daa84]

What annoys me is that Twins just arent that good. They have no pitchers outside of Santana and Boonser is decent. They have 4 good hitters; Morneau, Hunter, Mauer, Cuddyear and a cast of clown who all struggle to hit .250.

i dont get it either.....they develop bullpens out of castaways (gurrier) and find hidden gems (neshek, reyes last year) with more regularity than any team in the bigs...

 

the twins get more out of a hitter that hits .285 with no power than any team i have ever seen...s*** even cuddyer and hunter are horrid guys to have batting 3 and 5....outside of basement dwelling teams like the nats and royals i struggle to find a team with a worse 3 and 5.....i mean honestly look at hunters #s...hes like crede with speed, yet it feels like he is the best player we face every year...

[fathom]

Neshek isn't a hidden gem...he's been a well-regarded member of their minors for a few years now. I know for a fact that the BA scouts LOVE him.

[AirScott]

i dont get it either.....they develop bullpens out of castaways (gurrier) and find hidden gems (neshek, reyes last year) with more regularity than any team in the bigs...

 

the twins get more out of a hitter that hits .285 with no power than any team i have ever seen...s*** even cuddyer and hunter are horrid guys to have batting 3 and 5....outside of basement dwelling teams like the nats and royals i struggle to find a team with a worse 3 and 5.....i mean honestly look at hunters #s...hes like crede with speed, yet it feels like he is the best player we face every year...

Reyes isn't a gem. He's a Cliff Politte, Matt Karchner, Neal Cotts...a guy who puts together an awesome season and disappears.

Edited May 30, 2007 by AirScott

[JohnCangelosi]

What annoys me is that Twins just arent that good. They have no pitchers outside of Santana and Boonser is decent. They have 4 good hitters; Morneau, Hunter, Mauer, Cuddyear and a cast of clown who all struggle to hit .250.

He was throwing at least 95 every pitch when he was striking those guys out early. Before Mac started struggling Aardsma could just come in and rear back and fire. Now he is trying to be fine cuz he is being used in pressure situations with no room for error, since that role I haven't seen him above 92 on the gun. Terrible.

That's exactly it. I could throw underhanded to that pussy Tyner, Kubiel, Punto, Cirillo (name another no name white guy on the bench) and get them out 50% of the time. Instead, we walk these guys. Did you see Bartlett in the ninth? The guy looked like a scared kid in little league. He didn't want to swing the bat. Neither did Tyner, and we walk him. What a joke of a loss, chalk this one up amongst many crazy, frustrating losses at HHH.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Neshek isn't a hidden gem...he's been a well-regarded member of their minors for a few years now. I know for a fact that the BA scouts LOVE him.

The last page is full of crap from people who don't understand what kind of talent the Twins have put on the field.

 

Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, and Morneau have put up better minor league numbers than anyone the Sox have produced since CLee and Maggs.

 

Liriano, Garza, Baker, Slowey, and Perkins gives them 5 players who've matched (most have exceeded) our best performing pitching prospect of the last 5 years (McCarthy).

[AirScott]

The last page is full of crap from people who don't understand what kind of talent the Twins have put on the field.

 

Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, and Morneau have put up better minor league numbers than anyone the Sox have produced since CLee and Maggs.

 

Liriano, Garza, Baker, Slowey, and Perkins gives them 5 players who've matched (most have exceeded) our best performing pitching prospect of the last 5 years (McCarthy).

Understatement: They're certainly no slouches in terms of player development.

 

See also: Johan Santana, Torii Hunter, A.J. Pierzynski, Doug Mientkiewicz, et al.

[Steff]

i dont get it either.....they develop bullpens out of castaways (gurrier) and find hidden gems (neshek, reyes last year) with more regularity than any team in the bigs...

 

the twins get more out of a hitter that hits .285 with no power than any team i have ever seen...s*** even cuddyer and hunter are horrid guys to have batting 3 and 5....outside of basement dwelling teams like the nats and royals i struggle to find a team with a worse 3 and 5.....i mean honestly look at hunters #s...hes like crede with speed, yet it feels like he is the best player we face every year...

 

 

 

The Twins are one of many clubs who are light years ahead of the Sox in terms of player development.

[daa84]

Neshek isn't a hidden gem...he's been a well-regarded member of their minors for a few years now. I know for a fact that the BA scouts LOVE him.

ok, well what i mean is hta BA never had him as a top 10 prospect in the twins organization....and maybe that speaks to the depth of their organization, cuz i cant fathom (no pun intended) a guy outside our top 10 coming even close to putting up the #s neshek does in our pen....

 

maybe sleeper was a better way of putting it as this is from a BA chat, but nontheless....its not like anyone figured neshek would do what he is doing

Q: Rip from White Bear Lake asks:

Who are some sleeper prospects for the Twins?

A:

 

John Manuel: I mentioned Bowyer . . . I like him as a closer prospect. Pat Neshek struggled this year, but he's funky enough to be an effective middle reliever down the line.

[Soxfest]

Twins GM Terry Ryan is fantastic IMO!

Edited May 30, 2007 by Soxfest

[fathom]

The Twins are one of many clubs who are light years ahead of the Sox in terms of player development.

 

It's amusing to me that with all of the Twins success under their current regime, we're the one with the World Series crown. I assume you're like me Steff, and you realize just how magical the 2005 season was with every passing day.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've seen Aardsma pitch probably more than anyone, as I watch almost all Cubs games also. Aardsma rarely pitched inside at the beginning of the year. Like during that Indians game where he was great, he was just painting the outside corner to righties. The catcher rarely sets up inside for him on the mound. Also, I disagree that Jenks best pitch is his fastball. Jenks fastball is actually his set-up pitch, as he strikes out hitters with his offspeed stuff almost every time. I can think of only a few strike outs he has this year from blowing his fastball past the hitter.

 

I doubt you've seen Aardsma pitch more than me, but hey, whatever you say.

 

We will also disagree that Aardsma didn't or cannot pitch inside. Of course he can't do much of anything right now, you just saw it as well as me. Can't get it over the plate anywhere or anyways.

 

With two outs a K was not critical, just get an out so whether Jenks K's more on hooks doesn't much matter. Lots of Sox fans complain about bringing in Jenks for a non save situation or for more than one inning anyways.

 

You saw all the walks today. You saw, whether on gameday or on tv, walks from an 18 game winner and lots of them I might add. Then you saw them from the set up guy. Then you saw one from another right hander. Who is to say Jenks doesn't walk the guy, we will never know but he also has had an alarming tendancy to put guys on base with walks.

 

The players have to execute, guess what once again they did not.

 

I am not convinced all of these players are playing hard and the onus there is on the manager and his staff. I do know for sure they are very often not playing smart and there is some onus there on the manager and his staff and also on the guys who assemble the team and recommend who to acquire.

 

It is easy, as you seem to do most games the last 10 days, to scapegoat the manager. The reality is it is much more than that.

[fathom]

ok, well what i mean is hta BA never had him as a top 10 prospect in the twins organization....and maybe that speaks to the depth of their organization, cuz i cant fathom (no pun intended) a guy outside our top 10 coming even close to putting up the #s neshek does in our pen....

 

maybe sleeper was a better way of putting it as this is from a BA chat, but nontheless....its not like anyone figured neshek would do what he is doing

 

I don't know where he's been rated by them....I'm just going off of things said off the record by their analysts about him.

[Steff]

It's amusing to me that with all of the Twins success under their current regime, we're the one with the World Series crown. I assume you're like me Steff, and you realize just how magical the 2005 season was with every passing day.

 

 

How's it go....

 

 

"I'd rather be lucky than good..."