southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> where do you see a comparison? well, I could give you one. That shows how bad our developmental and scouting systems are. We were talking about Ozzie and not playing younger kids. You said look at the Braves and what they do with their younger kids. Ozzie learned from Bobby Cox so I imagine they would be similar. Now show me a similar young stud that Ozzie didn't play that Bobby Cox did and would have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHolyBovine Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:54 PM) CF is a HUGE improvement from last year. He is actually one of the best hitters on our team this year. That is not saying much, but it's true. I knew someone would mention this. This isn't 1980. Just because a CFer is hitting .270 doesn't mean he's any good. The name of the game is scoring runs, and Erstad's low OBP and SLG means that he doesn't contribute much to the cause. A .680 OPS is horrendous, especially for an OFer. The problem is, management agrees with your line of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:41 PM) Brandon McCarthy vs. El Duque August 2005. Game....set...match! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Brandon McCarthy vs. El Duque August 2005. How did that work out? I think El Duque is putting up better numbers than McCarthy still. McCarthy is a young stud and El Duque is regressing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) How did that work out? I think El Duque is putting up better numbers than McCarthy still. McCarthy is a young stud and El Duque is regressing? It damn near cost the Sox the division. El Duque finally had to be put to sleep for a while and McCarthy won some big games. Ozzie didn't want the young guy in the rotation last year either, so Vazquez gets picked up using up money that could have been spent on other things and the Sox best prospect in years goes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Many pitching coaches believe you get more movement if you don't throw as hard. MacDougal is someone who they told to try and get more sink on his fastball instead of trying to throw it at 97 mph. It worked last year, as he was getting tons of grounders. Javy Vazquez is another person who is trying to throw with less velocity in order to get more command. I agree about the negative impact of overthrowing, but Thornton is someone who just need to focus more on throwing strikes instead of blowing it by every hitter. Now command = movement? Which is it? You are all over the place. My thought is he is not telling them to lose velocity for command if they already have shown both, which both Jenks and Thorton showed last year. Do you think he is teaching them less velocity for even more command when they have already shown they had both last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:44 PM) How did that work out? I think El Duque is putting up better numbers than McCarthy still. McCarthy is a young stud and El Duque is regressing? Well, it cost us a few games during the tailspin of 2005. Thankfully, McCarthy was able to be a slump breaker, as he had some huge games when he finally got his chance. For as overrated as he was on this site, his contributions during 2005 are massively underrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSoxfan1986 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:10 PM) I think it's a two way straight with Ozzie and the young prospects. Ozzie is so much like Dusty when it comes to his love for veterans. I'm not saying it's right (in fact I f***in hate it), but most managers are like that. A few examples- Chad Billingsley is in the Dodgers bullpen pitching well while they let Mark Hendrickson suck it up The Twins have had Garza and Slowey in AAA while they have had Ponson and Ortiz in the rotation (although not anymore). No way in hell Ponson should have been on their opening day roster out of spring training. Billy Butler is in AAA while the Royals play guys like Shane Costa and Emil Brown. Edited May 30, 2007 by WhiteSoxfan1986 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It damn near cost the Sox the division. El Duque finally had to be put to sleep for a while and McCarthy won some big games. Ozzie didn't want the young guy in the rotation last year either, so Vazquez gets picked up using up money that could have been spent on other things and the Sox best prospect in years goes away. So El Duque was tired? He needed a rest before the playoff run. He was great in the playoffs wasn't he? Without him we may have not got past Boston. Thank God McCarthy didn't make the roster. He is no good coming out of the bullpen. The way McCarthy pitched last year I didn't want him in there either. After seeing him pitch this year I am much happier with Vazquez over McCarthy. Good job Ozzie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) How did that work out? I think El Duque is putting up better numbers than McCarthy still. McCarthy is a young stud and El Duque is regressing? Duque was god awful in the late part of the season in 05, and BMac shut down two of the best offenses in baseball. But I'll be honest, I prefered Duque over McCarthy in the postseason because of Duque's past success and experience in the postseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:46 PM) Now command = movement? Which is it? You are all over the place. My thought is he is not telling them to lose velocity for command if they already have shown both, which both Jenks and Thorton showed last year. Do you think he is teaching them less velocity for even more command when they have already shown they had both last year? It's both....if you hear Cooper speak, he never says a problem with the pitcher is lack of velocity. He's always say it's command and movement. Even last year, they wouldn't say they were concerned with Buehrle's velocity. I don't know what the answer is....the loss of velocity across the board for our pitchers is one of the most irritating things I've witnessed as a Sox fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, it cost us a few games during the tailspin of 2005. Thankfully, McCarthy was able to be a slump breaker, as he had some huge games when he finally got his chance. For as overrated as he was on this site, his contributions during 2005 are massively underrated. He has what, 3 good games? Yeah - massively underrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) I think El Duque is putting up better numbers than McCarthy still. McCarthy is a young stud and El Duque is regressing? Still? I can't remember when he was putting up better numbers than BMac in the first place especially in 05 and I'm not counting when El Duque was with the Yanks and when BMac wasn't even in the league yet. Pitching in the weak NL does help your cause as well for El Duque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:48 PM) I'm not saying it's right (in fact I f***in hate it), but most managers are like that. A few examples- Chad Billingsley is in the Dodgers bullpen pitching well while they let Mark Hendrickson suck it up The Twins have had Garza and Slowey in AAA while they have had Ponson and Ortiz in the rotation (although not anymore). No way in hell Ponson should have been on their opening day roster out of spring training. Billy Butler is in AAA while the Royals play guys like Shane Costa and Emil Brown. Hendrickson's been better for the Dodgers this year than Billingsley has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:48 PM) So El Duque was tired? He needed a rest before the playoff run. He was great in the playoffs wasn't he? Without him we may have not got past Boston. Thank God McCarthy didn't make the roster. He is no good coming out of the bullpen. The way McCarthy pitched last year I didn't want him in there either. After seeing him pitch this year I am much happier with Vazquez over McCarthy. Good job Ozzie. McCarthy wasn't very good last year, but his ERA was lower than Vazquez's. So if he's bad coming out of the bullpen what does that make Vazquez? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's both....if you hear Cooper speak, he never says a problem with the pitcher is lack of velocity. He's always say it's command and movement. Even last year, they wouldn't say they were concerned with Buehrle's velocity. I don't know what the answer is....the loss of velocity across the board for our pitchers is one of the most irritating things I've witnessed as a Sox fan. If a pitcher has lost velocity you don't want to let them know it is a problem. He would never say that. I would look at their training program and who gives it to them. Maybe then we could see if there is a problem with that. The training program and how they keep themselves in shape is what has most to do with losing velocity. It is an explosive movement. They need to be in the right shape to be able to pitch. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> McCarthy wasn't very good last year, but his ERA was lower than Vazquez's. So if he's bad coming out of the bullpen what does that make Vazquez? Last year Vazquez was not good. I'd still take him over McCarthy. McCarthy is an overrated piece of garbage who thought way too highly of himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:49 PM) He has what, 3 good games? Yeah - massively underrated. Let's see....he pitched a gem at Texas after we had been embarrassed the few games before it. Remember the Buehrle debacle with accusing the other team of stealing signs? He had a great game at Boston in which no one in the world gave us a shot due to having to make it up. At that point in the season, one or two games meant everything. If the Indians ever overtook the Sox in the standings, who knows what would have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(SoxAce @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Still? I can't remember when he was putting up better numbers than BMac in the first place especially in 05 and I'm not counting when El Duque was with the Yanks and when BMac wasn't even in the league yet. Pitching in the weak NL does help your cause as well for El Duque. This year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:52 PM) If a pitcher has lost velocity you don't want to let them know it is a problem. He would never say that. I would look at their training program and who gives it to them. Maybe then we could see if there is a problem with that. The training program and how they keep themselves in shape is what has most to do with losing velocity. It is an explosive movement. They need to be in the right shape to be able to pitch. Last year Vazquez was not good. I'd still take him over McCarthy. McCarthy is an overrated piece of garbage who thought way too highly of himself. KW was pitching about the velocity about a week before the season started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Good thread. Kenny had me blinded by the ring, but now I see both he and Ozzie really have some major issues, mainly being bad at their jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> KW was pitching about the velocity about a week before the season started. Is KW the coach or manager? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:49 PM) He has what, 3 good games? Yeah - massively underrated. 2 very good (LAA, DET), 4 outstanding (TEX, BOS, MIN, CLE) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:53 PM) This year. And Duque's pitching in one of the best pitcher's parks in the NL, and McCarthy in one of the worst pitcher's parks in the AL. I'm very happy with what we've seen from Danks so far, but I really think McCarthy will put up respectable numbers this year. I would say it's about a 60 pct chance that Danks ends the season with a better ERA than McCarthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Let's see....he pitched a gem at Texas after we had been embarrassed the few games before it. Remember the Buehrle debacle with accusing the other team of stealing signs? He had a great game at Boston in which no one in the world gave us a shot due to having to make it up. At that point in the season, one or two games meant everything. If the Indians ever overtook the Sox in the standings, who knows what would have happened. So 3 games? OK. Yeah - McCarthy is/was overrated. We got at least 2 and maybe 3 good players for him. Good job Kenny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I liked the deals this offseason that Kenny made. He got good players they just didn't play good. Thome and Podsednik got injured. And now our pitching sucks. There are so many variables in baseball and they all have to lineup. You have to think about how everything went our way in '05 and now it doesn't. I'm not going to judge anything until the trade deadline Look at the brightside, the Yankees are one of the worst 5 teams in all of baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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