Putting This One Right Where It Belongs -- On Kenny Williams

[fathom]

Stresses, ok, I can see that. I don't think he means stop throwing 100mph if you have control with it. Didn't Big Bobby do that? I don't believe Coop made him stop. There are other things involved in the equation besides the teaching of Coop. If you are that interested in it I think a little more research should be involved before fingers start getting pointed. I'm just sayin, I'm not sayin.

You make it seem like Dusty and Ozzie are the only ones like this. If given the choice, any manager would rather have the vets than the young-ins - especially on a talented championship team. EVERY MANAGER!

What manager isn't when given the choice?

 

That's what we're saying...find a manager who's a little more willing to stick with young players. And if Cooper isn't the one telling the players to throw with less velocity so that they have more command, then he better be on the witch hunt to find out why it's happening to almost everyone over the last two years. The "stressful innings from the WS" excuse can't be used.

[BearSox]

Also, it is looking like 05 was more and more of an aberration. Pre-05, I like many others, was a big anti-Kenny guy. Besides for 05, we have been pretty much mediocre the past 10 so years. Sure there is that year like 2000 mixed in there, but I like many, (who the hell wouldn't?) would like a Dynasty. Not even a big one. 3-5 years of dominance would and 1-2 more titles would do me in more then anything. I'd be set for a long time with that. I don't believe with this current organization with KW at the head will bring that Dynasty any time soon.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Sox haven't developed players like the Twins do. That's part of the problem. What I don't understand is why guys like Wilder and Schaefer, who are largely responsible for the players in the system and their development get promotions.

Part of the problem is that they trade young players they acquire/draft (Reed, Morse, and Olivo) and get something they need and has more valuable - a proven veteran pitcher (Freddy Garcia). Organizations view the development of players differently. The Sox seem to think of them as chips to get veterans. The Twins like to develop them and then lose them to free agency.

[BearSox]

Stresses, ok, I can see that. I don't think he means stop throwing 100mph if you have control with it. Didn't Big Bobby do that? I don't believe Coop made him stop. There are other things involved in the equation besides the teaching of Coop. If you are that interested in it I think a little more research should be involved before fingers start getting pointed. I'm just sayin, I'm not sayin.

 

 

You make it seem like Dusty and Ozzie are the only ones like this. If given the choice, any manager would rather have the vets than the young-ins - especially on a talented championship team. EVERY MANAGER!

 

 

 

What manager isn't when given the choice?

So you say you would play old mediocre "vets" over young studs any day?

 

Especially when you're a team that needs youth desperatly?

[fathom]

Part of the problem is that they trade young players they acquire/draft (Reed, Morse, and Olivo) and get something they need and has more valuable - a proven veteran pitcher (Freddy Garcia). Organizations view the development of players differently. The Sox seem to think of them as chips to get veterans. The Twins like to develop them and then lose them to free agency.

 

And now we're at a point where the veterans we've traded for are either old or their contracts are done. Now, the lack of developing our minor leaguers is killing our depth at the big league level.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what we're saying...find a manager who's a little more willing to stick with young players. And if Cooper isn't the one telling the players to throw with less velocity so that they have more command, then he better be on the witch hunt to find out why it's happening to almost everyone over the last two years. The "stressful innings from the WS" excuse can't be used.

WHO!?!?!?!?! What manager wants to stick with young players over veterans when given the choice? WHO? A first year manager like a Joe Girardi? He wouldn't want to be in that situation again. That is all you are going to get. A manager looking for his first opportunity. A good veteran manager doesn't want to sit back and help young kids develop. No manager worth anything wants that.

You are telling me Coop went to Jenks and Thorton and told them to stop throwing near 100mph and get more control of the pitch? They had good control when they were throwing near 100mph right? But Coop wanted them to have EVEN MORE control of their pitches and throw slower? Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. It is all Coop's fault.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely ridiculous. Young players can't tolerate Ozzie? That is a ridiculous excuse. If that is the case then I don't want those certain young players on this team. It is sad that you have to coddle certain young players. I doubt the Sox ever go into full rebuilding mode under KW.

 

southsideirish, agree completely. Especially after they came out with that mission statement this winter, saying they will try to compete for a championship every year. Having been around Williams I do not think he's cut out for a total rebuilding, in terms of his competitive nature.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you say you would play old mediocre "vets" over young studs any day?

 

Especially when you're a team that needs youth desperatly?

Who are our young studs that should be playing over the mediocre vets we have? Please point them out to me. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BearSox]

Another thing no one has really brought up.... The White Sox have a top 5 payroll (probably top 3 actually), and they can't even get passed the .500 mark.

 

Here, http://blog.sportscolumn.com/story/2007/4/9/1367/60158

 

Look at where the Brewers, Twins, and Indians rank on that list...

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WHO!?!?!?!?! What manager wants to stick with young players over veterans when given the choice?

 

You know what is kind of humorous about this is he gave an opp. to an inexperienced pitcher today in a key sitaution and the player failed and Guillen is getting his rear chewed on for not going with a more experienced guy.

[BearSox]

WHO!?!?!?!?! What manager wants to stick with young players over veterans when given the choice? WHO? A first year manager like a Joe Girardi? He wouldn't want to be in that situation again. That is all you are going to get. A manager looking for his first opportunity. A good veteran manager doesn't want to sit back and help young kids develop. No manager worth anything wants that.

You are telling me Coop went to Jenks and Thorton and told them to stop throwing near 100mph and get more control of the pitch? They had good control when they were throwing near 100mph right? But Coop wanted them to have EVEN MORE control of their pitches and throw slower? Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. It is all Coop's fault.

Hey Bobby Cox and the Braves are horrible. They sucked for the 14 years or whatever it was where the would constantly put in young prospects.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And now we're at a point where the veterans we've traded for are either old or their contracts are done. Now, the lack of developing our minor leaguers is killing our depth at the big league level.

From what I have been reading our minors have some good pitching depth. Isn't young pitching what every team wants? Don't you think the Sox could part with couple to get some veterans (Ichiro/Griffey) to replace the ones they will be losing? Let me know if that sticks.

[fathom]

You are telling me Coop went to Jenks and Thorton and told them to stop throwing near 100mph and get more control of the pitch? They had good control when they were throwing near 100mph right? But Coop wanted them to have EVEN MORE control of their pitches and throw slower? Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. It is all Coop's fault.

 

Yep, I absolutely believe they told Thornton that he can be more effecitve at 95 mph with control than throwing 98 mph with less control. Thornton used to be wild as hell with Seattle. I even heard Aardsma say earlier in the year that he was focusing more on command than overthrowing. Jenks has often stated that he's not as concerned about his velocity as he is his command. Cooper's not the only position coach that teaches this way. Hell, Rothschild is the opposite, and his pitchers always get hurt.

 

From what I have been reading our minors have some good pitching depth. Isn't young pitching what every team wants? Don't you think the Sox could part with couple to get some veterans (Ichiro/Griffey) to replace the ones they will be losing? Let me know if that sticks.

 

Griffey Jr. should be nowhere near this team from 2008 and on. Ichiro's going to get a ton of money this offseason, and when exactly was the last time that he lead his team to a good season? Also, don't buy into the hype with our minor league pitchers. Gio is our best pitching prospect (even he projects to be a 3, at best), and guys like Russell, Faustino, and Eggy still have a long way to go before they can be pencilled into the Sox rotation

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Bobby Cox and the Braves are horrible. They sucked for the 14 years or whatever it was where the would constantly put in young prospects.

Are you honestly comparing their young prospects to ours? Plus they seem to trade a lot of them away as well to.

[BearSox]

Who are our young studs that should be playing over the mediocre vets we have? Please point them out to me. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I say we had any? You said which manager wouldn't use Vets over prospects. Like in 05/06 with the Cubs. You have a young stud on one side and a degressing vet on the other. Who do you choose?

[Dick Allen]

Part of the problem is that they trade young players they acquire/draft (Reed, Morse, and Olivo) and get something they need and has more valuable - a proven veteran pitcher (Freddy Garcia). Organizations view the development of players differently. The Sox seem to think of them as chips to get veterans. The Twins like to develop them and then lose them to free agency.

The Sox have really struggled bringing guys up. KW would rather develop guys to use than use them to trade for high priced veterans. I just wonder if a guy like Sweeney or Anderson or even some of these pitchers would be better players if they were brought up in a different organization. Then again guys like Olivo, Reed, even Abbott regressed even farther when leaving the White Sox. All I know is when the DH went down, Brian Anderson DHd a game. When one of our bargain basement relievers couldn't throw a strike anymore he was replaced by a 26 year old AA pitcher. When the most used bench guy goes down, he's replaced by a 25 year old non-prospect. The team sets attendance records, is coming off a championship, the TV ratings are beating their crosstown nemisis, and what does KW do to ride the momentum? Sign Erstad for $1 million of course. Huge move. Give Pods $3 million and Javier Vazquez $33 million more 2 seasons before you lose control of him, and then cry about the crazy spending of others. Spend a total of $3.6 million on the entire bullpen and pronounce it one of the best in baseball. Say you need to get back to "Ozzieball" a myth btw even in 2005 and not only not improve the team speed, but actually get slower if possible. Speed, unless your name is Podsednik, does not slump.

[BearSox]

Are you honestly comparing their young prospects to ours? Plus they seem to trade a lot of them away as well to.

where do you see a comparison? well, I could give you one. That shows how bad our developmental and scouting systems are.

[fathom]

You know what is kind of humorous about this is he gave an opp. to an inexperienced pitcher today in a key sitaution and the player failed and Guillen is getting his rear chewed on for not going with a more experienced guy.

 

Yeah, when I think of Aardsma, I really think of him as such a young kid, and I think of Jenks as a 40 year old pitcher who's been around forever. Aardsma has been in the majors longer than Jenks has.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, when I think of Aardsma, I really think of him as such a young kid, and I think of Jenks as a 40 year old pitcher who's been around forever. Aardsma has been in the majors longer than Jenks has.

 

Let me check to see if I said anything about age. Be right back.

 

No I didn't.

 

I did say something about experience and guess what, Jenks has more than Aardsma.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, I absolutely believe they told Thornton that he can be more effecitve at 95 mph with control than throwing 98 mph with less control. Thornton used to be wild as hell with Seattle. I even heard Aardsma say earlier in the year that he was focusing more on command than overthrowing. Jenks has often stated that he's not as concerned about his velocity as he is his command. Cooper's not the only position coach that teaches this way. Hell, Rothschild is the opposite, and his pitchers always get hurt.

 

 

 

Griffey Jr. should be nowhere near this team from 2008 and on. Ichiro's going to get a ton of money this offseason, and when exactly was the last time that he lead his team to a good season? Also, don't buy into the hype with our minor league pitchers. Gio is our best pitching prospect (even he projects to be a 3, at best), and guys like Russell, Faustino, and Eggy still have a long way to go before they can be pencilled into the Sox rotation

Overthrowing is not the same as throwing your max velocity. Overthrowing does not equal more velocity. In fact if you are overthrowing it will sometimes hurt your velocity. I am surprised you didn't know this. Thorton pitched effectively last year on the White Sox throwing near 100mph while under Coop's teachings. I believe Coop teaching command first - but if you are throwing 97-100 with command I don't believe he is teaching them to hold back and get MORE command. That is assinine.

 

Ichiro is going to get a lot of money and he more than makes up for it from all the Japanese fans that buy his stuff. A bad team with Ichiro will go nowhere. A good team with good pitching and defense and power behind him in the lineup will go far. You can't blame ONE PLAYER for a bad baseball team's record. It may work in basketball, but not baseball.

I don't have to buy into it, other GM's do. Hell, not even all GMs, just the right GM. Just like the one GM bought into Jeremy Reed. Just like certain GMs buy into the hype of certain Mets and Yanks prospects. I don't have to buy into it, but the right GM does and most likely will.

[fathom]

Let me check to see if I said anything about age. Be right back.

 

No I didn't.

 

I did say something about experience and guess what, Jenks has more than Aardsma.

 

Aardsma isn't exactly this young pitcher straight out of the minors. He's not the type of player that we were referencing that Ozzie doesn't prefer.

[Dick Allen]

Why is it when the Sox hitters don't hit Greg Walker should be fired, but when the pitchers can't pitch none of it falls on Cooper?

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did I say we had any? You said which manager wouldn't use Vets over prospects. Like in 05/06 with the Cubs. You have a young stud on one side and a degressing vet on the other. Who do you choose?

We are talking about Ozzie. You think Ozzie would not play a young stud over a regressing vet? Give me an example. Show me our young stud and our regressing vet. Do you mean our mediocre young kid and our mediore vet? I think Ozzie will choose the mediocre vet because he will not make the stupid inexperienced mistake over and over again. Now please show me an example of where Ozzie did not play a young stud over the regressing vet - without that your argument is for the crapper and is nonsense.

[fathom]

Overthrowing is not the same as throwing your max velocity. Overthrowing does not equal more velocity. In fact if you are overthrowing it will sometimes hurt your velocity. I am surprised you didn't know this. Thorton pitched effectively last year on the White Sox throwing near 100mph while under Coop's teachings. I believe Coop teaching command first - but if you are throwing 97-100 with command I don't believe he is teaching them to hold back and get MORE command. That is assinine.

 

Many pitching coaches believe you get more movement if you don't throw as hard. MacDougal is someone who they told to try and get more sink on his fastball instead of trying to throw it at 97 mph. It worked last year, as he was getting tons of grounders. Javy Vazquez is another person who is trying to throw with less velocity in order to get more command. I agree about the negative impact of overthrowing, but Thornton is someone who just need to focus more on throwing strikes instead of blowing it by every hitter.

[Dick Allen]

We are talking about Ozzie. You think Ozzie would not play a young stud over a regressing vet? Give me an example. Show me our young stud and our regressing vet. Do you mean our mediocre young kid and our mediore vet? I think Ozzie will choose the mediocre vet because he will not make the stupid inexperienced mistake over and over again. Now please show me an example of where Ozzie did not play a young stud over the regressing vet - without that your argument is for the crapper and is nonsense.

Brandon McCarthy vs. El Duque August 2005.