Ozzie Throwing in the Towel... on Himself?

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ May 31, 2007 -> 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with all of that, but Ozzie putting Aardsma in instead of Jenks yesterday, simply can't be defended.

 

No, in your mind it was wrong, that doesn't mean it can't be defended. It was defended at length yesterday. If you disagree that's fine, but saying it can't be defended is incorrect.

[Wedge]

I have been warned, and I am keeping my mouth shut.

 

Thanks.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(Steff @ May 31, 2007 -> 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been warned, and I am keeping my mouth shut.

 

Absolutely there are changes coming. I respect though that if you somehow know something and can't say. But there is no question that mgmt staff will sit there and take it for much longer, they just won't.

[Wedge]

Absolutely there are changes coming. I respect though that if you somehow know something and can't say. But there is no question that mgmt staff will sit there and take it for much longer, they just won't.

 

Obviously Steff can't say anything, but what can we really speculate in terms of big changes?

• Move Crede and bring up Fields
• Move Dye and bring up Sweeney
• Move a starter and put Masset in the rotation
• Move AJ and make Hall the fulltime starter
• Do something with Iguchi?
• Redo the bullpen?

I mean, we really can't move Konerko or Thome and I think we really need to move one of Konerko-Thome-Dye. That 3-4-5 is just so slow. Not to steal a Dusty-ism, but it really "clogs up the basepaths".

 

The best thing the team could do is move to the NL Central...

[whitesoxfan101]

No, in your mind it was wrong, that doesn't mean it can't be defended. It was defended at length yesterday. If you disagree that's fine, but saying it can't be defended is incorrect.

 

Ahh posts like these make me think people will still love Ozzie even when he does leave scorched earth. To defend his 9th inning work yesterday is asinine. Is it his fault we blew a 5 run lead, or that our 9th inning defense sucked? Of course not, but that is never ANY managers fault. All a manger can do is use common sense strategy to put his team in the best spot to win, and Ozzie doesn't do that, and certainly didn't yesterday by not using our only good right handed RP in the 9th inning when Jenks hasn't been used hardly at all lately.

 

The majority of this teams problem is lack of talent, which is why KW and Wilder are on a much hotter seat than Guillen this year, but that doesn't make Ozzie's managing nonsense any more acceptable.

Edited May 31, 2007 by whitesoxfan101

[southsideirish71]

Obviously Steff can't say anything, but what can we really speculate in terms of big changes?

• Move Crede and bring up Fields
• Move Dye and bring up Sweeney
• Move a starter and put Masset in the rotation
• Move AJ and make Hall the fulltime starter
• Do something with Iguchi?
• Redo the bullpen?

I mean, we really can't move Konerko or Thome and I think we really need to move one of Konerko-Thome-Dye. That 3-4-5 is just so slow. Not to steal a Dusty-ism, but it really "clogs up the basepaths".

 

The best thing the team could do is move to the NL Central...

 

The AJ move wont make sense. We have no depth at catcher and AJ and Hall are the tandem we will have for a while. Hall has a torn labrum, so that doesnt scream make me the full time starter.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm just of the theory that this team needs a shakeup, the type of move that wakes everyone up and puts the players on notice and I think Ozzie can only do so much in that department, the onus really does fall on Kenny at this point (whether that is Walker going or the team getting rid of one of its regular's and making a roster change).

 

This team needs some youth because while youth is inconsistent, it can also create things that this slow/sluggish team can't do. And I think the reality is Ozzie has to get frustrated because this is the second straight year he's managing an offense that completely doesn't fit his style (and we can argue whether his style is right or wrong, but I've said all along you got to give a manager what he likes.

[fathom]

And I think the reality is Ozzie has to get frustrated because this is the second straight year he's managing an offense that completely doesn't fit his style (and we can argue whether his style is right or wrong, but I've said all along you got to give a manager what he likes.

 

This is a great point. This offense, combined with how Ozzie wants to manage, is a terrible combination. That's why KW and Ozzie deserve a lot of blame for how things have fallen so fast in the last 120 games or so. As you keep saying, we need more athletes. Teams usually have athletic 2b and SS....we clearly don't.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ May 31, 2007 -> 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ahh posts like these make me think people will still love Ozzie even when he does leave scorched earth. To defend his 9th inning work yesterday is asinine. Is it his fault we blew a 5 run lead, or that our 9th inning defense sucked? Of course not, but that is never ANY managers fault. All a manger can do is use common sense strategy to put his team in the best spot to win, and Ozzie doesn't do that, and certainly didn't yesterday by not using our only good right handed RP in the 9th inning when Jenks hasn't been used hardly at all lately.

 

The majority of this teams problem is lack of talent, which is why KW and Wilder are on a much hotter seat than Guillen this year, but that doesn't make Ozzie's managing nonsense any more acceptable.

 

Ahh posts like yours make me realize how many people just don't know the game that well and lots of them post on message boards.

 

Here are the words you use: asinine, common sense, managing nonsense, acceptable.

 

Do they teach you in Dekalb that all those words are subjective? Open to interpretation? Opinion based?

 

It has nothing to do with loving Ozzie. Did I say that, did you read that? No. All I said was it was defended yesterday, at length. Doesn't mean that defense was 100% right, or 100% wrong. It was defended, you said it couldn't be defended. I told you that was incorrect. It's really simple, don't read into things that werent said.

 

Now you may go back to your regularly scheduled looking for things to bash Guillen about.

[Steff]

[whitesoxfan101]

I'm just of the theory that this team needs a shakeup, the type of move that wakes everyone up and puts the players on notice and I think Ozzie can only do so much in that department, the onus really does fall on Kenny at this point (whether that is Walker going or the team getting rid of one of its regular's and making a roster change).

 

This team needs some youth because while youth is inconsistent, it can also create things that this slow/sluggish team can't do. And I think the reality is Ozzie has to get frustrated because this is the second straight year he's managing an offense that completely doesn't fit his style (and we can argue whether his style is right or wrong, but I've said all along you got to give a manager what he likes.

 

I agree we will improve with the proper shakeup, but it will take more than that to finish 2nd in this division. Agreed with everything else though, the fact Jerry Owens isn't in LF and hitting leadoff for us right now, when you take into account the year he's having, his age, and our injury problems, is pretty strange to me. And the fact we haven't already blown up the bullpen (that's the one thing we all know sucks) is also strange to me considering their salaries, age, and arbitration status.

 

 

Ahh posts like yours make me realize how many people just don't know the game that well and lots of them post on message boards.

 

Here are the words you use: asinine, common sense, managing nonsense, acceptable.

 

Do they teach you in Dekalb that all those words are subjective? Open to interpretation? Opinion based?

 

It has nothing to do with loving Ozzie. Did I say that, did you read that? No. All I said was it was defended yesterday, at length. Doesn't mean that defense was 100% right, or 100% wrong. It was defended, you said it couldn't be defended. I told you that was incorrect. It's really simple, don't read into things that werent said.

 

Now you may go back to your regularly scheduled looking for things to bash Guillen about.

 

How can you call the 9th yesterday up for debate? It was horribly managed and a big reason why the game didn't go extras, and leaving your best bullet in the holster when it's based loaded 2 outs for Torii Hunter is one of the worst moves I've ever seen Ozzie make. But again, how am I a Guillen basher when I'm telling you KW and Wilder are higher on the firing squad totem pole, as are many of the players, than Ozzie at the moment?

[caulfield12]

This is a great point. This offense, combined with how Ozzie wants to manage, is a terrible combination. That's why KW and Ozzie deserve a lot of blame for how things have fallen so fast in the last 120 games or so. As you keep saying, we need more athletes. Teams usually have athletic 2b and SS....we clearly don't.

 

 

Uribe is a fine athlete, he just isn't a very proficient base stealer, and his weight gain last year hurt him.

 

Iguchi is aging, no doubt about that.

 

So if you're looking at Castillo-Casillas/Bartlett, Barfield/Peralta, Guillen/Polanco and even Grudzielanek/Pena, they're all probably more physically gifted and athletic than what we put out there, although you can make an argument we're even with the DET middle infield combo athletically...or pretty close.

 

So we go out and get someone like Erick Aybar from the Angels and hope he emerges into a solid 700-750 OPS middle infielder who can get you 25-35 steals per season. Playing Aybar, a natural SS at first, also makes our infield defense a heckuva lot stronger, if we can find the right SS to pair with him. The irony is that Uribe is the youngest of our regulars, and it seems as if he has been around 15 years in the big leagues.

[southsider2k5]

Ahh posts like yours make me realize how many people just don't know the game that well and lots of them post on message boards.

 

Here are the words you use: asinine, common sense, managing nonsense, acceptable.

 

Do they teach you in Dekalb that all those words are subjective? Open to interpretation? Opinion based?

 

It has nothing to do with loving Ozzie. Did I say that, did you read that? No. All I said was it was defended yesterday, at length. Doesn't mean that defense was 100% right, or 100% wrong. It was defended, you said it couldn't be defended. I told you that was incorrect. It's really simple, don't read into things that werent said.

 

Now you may go back to your regularly scheduled looking for things to bash Guillen about.

 

Very nice post

[caulfield12]

I agree we will improve with the proper shakeup, but it will take more than that to finish 2nd in this division. Agreed with everything else though, the fact Jerry Owens isn't in LF and hitting leadoff for us right now, when you take into account the year he's having, his age, and our injury problems, is pretty strange to me. And the fact we haven't already blown up the bullpen (that's the one thing we all know sucks) is also strange to me considering their salaries, age, and arbitration status.

How can you call the 9th yesterday up for debate? It was horribly managed and a big reason why the game didn't go extras, and leaving your best bullet in the holster when it's based loaded 2 outs for Torii Hunter is one of the worst moves I've ever seen Ozzie make. But again, how am I a Guillen basher when I'm telling you KW and Wilder are higher on the firing squad totem pole, as are many of the players, than Ozzie at the moment?

 

 

How do you "blow up" our current bullpen? Dump MacDougal and get nothing in return after trading Lumsden for him? Obviously, Sisco and probably Aardsma now are ticket for Charlotte.

 

Do you want to trade Jenks or Thornton? Well, that doesn't solve anything in the long-term either.

 

Logan deserves to stay...we probably will try to add a veteran righty and pay way too much to do it. I just don't see how sending Day and Aardsma back down to the minors is not in the cards.

 

Which leaves Jenks/Thornton/Logan, Masset (if he's not a starter next year) possibly MacDougal and then what? Unfortunately, we don't have any top prospects that can be counted on as a relievers, so you're left converting Floyd, Phillips, Broadway, Haeger and possibly Gio or Russell into mop-up men.

 

It's not

[Texsox]

Very nice post

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said

[Wedge]

The AJ move wont make sense. We have no depth at catcher and AJ and Hall are the tandem we will have for a while. Hall has a torn labrum, so that doesnt scream make me the full time starter.

 

That might be true, but trading AJ would certainly shake-up the team. I was just posting possible moves to shake-up the chemistry on this squad.

[whitesoxfan101]

lol @ the turn in this thread. At least Jenks is freseh for the save chances he never gets.

[fathom]

The biggest legitimate shake-up this team could make is trading Crede and bringing up Fields to play 3b.

Edited May 31, 2007 by fathom

[Harry Chappas]

Not to rehash the 9th inning yesterday but the fact that Nathan threw about 9 pitches in the top half of the inning and he was going to pitch the 10th and the White Sox hadn't gotten a hit in 6 plus innings lead me to believe that Guillen was being rational about the situation.

 

If you throw Jenks for the 9th and 10th he is done for today and the chances are you have lost he and Thorton for a game today that we may have a better chance of winning.

 

Guillen wanted to see what Aardesma could do he rolled the dice but he is rationale. The way the White Sox are hitting they most likely were not going to hit nathan yesterday.

 

Today Jenks is ready to go if needed. I could see using him yesterday but I also could see him not using him in that situation.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Jenks Heat

[Wedge]

The biggest legitimate shake-up this team could make is trading Crede and bringing up Fields to play SS.

 

I thought Fields was a 3B? I agree that'd actually be a good start. Out of Dye, Thome, Konerko, and Crede we probably need to get rid of 2 and replace them with some guys with at least a shred of speed on the basepaths. That makes Crede a deadman and my guess is that we'd keep Konerko and Thome out of that group.

[fathom]

I thought Fields was a 3B? I agree that'd actually be a good start. Out of Dye, Thome, Konerko, and Crede we probably need to get rid of 2 and replace them with some guys with at least a shred of speed on the basepaths. That makes Crede a deadman and my guess is that we'd keep Konerko and Thome out of that group.

 

Sorry, meant to say 3b.

 

Not to rehash the 9th inning yesterday but the fact that Nathan threw about 9 pitches in the top half of the inning and he was going to pitch the 10th and the White Sox hadn't gotten a hit in 6 plus innings lead me to believe that Guillen was being rational about the situation.

 

If you throw Jenks for the 9th and 10th he is done for today and the chances are you have lost he and Thorton for a game today that we may have a better chance of winning.

 

Guillen wanted to see what Aardesma could do he rolled the dice but he is rationale. The way the White Sox are hitting they most likely were not going to hit nathan yesterday.

 

Today Jenks is ready to go if needed. I could see using him yesterday but I also could see him not using him in that situation.

 

You play to win the game (thanks Herman). If Jenks retires Hunter, then you have our 3-4-5 coming up, and the Twins have their bottom of the order coming up in the bottom of the inning.

[Wedge]

Sorry, meant to say 3b.

You play to win the game (thanks Herman). If Jenks retires Hunter, then you have our 3-4-5 coming up, and the Twins have their bottom of the order coming up in the bottom of the inning.

 

One might argue that's still advantage Twins

[southsider2k5]

Sorry, meant to say 3b.

You play to win the game (thanks Herman). If Jenks retires Hunter, then you have our 3-4-5 coming up, and the Twins have their bottom of the order coming up in the bottom of the inning.

 

And then Jenks has to go a second inning, at least, and historically Jenks doesn't preform very well in that next inning.

[Texsox]

And then Jenks has to go a second inning, at least, and historically Jenks doesn't preform very well in that next inning.

 

Shhh, you're using logic

[Harry Chappas]

Sorry, meant to say 3b.

You play to win the game (thanks Herman). If Jenks retires Hunter, then you have our 3-4-5 coming up, and the Twins have their bottom of the order coming up in the bottom of the inning.

 

I see your point and understand it, I see Guillen's too. I believe neither is right nad neither is wrong. Taking the game as a whole I don't see anyone coming up for the Sox as a benefit and worthy of leaving Jenks out there to be done today.

 

If Halladay is on a pitch count (I don't think he will be) these bozo's better make him work as his stamina should be reduced somewhat. The same thing with Clemens Monday. This series will decide if this team is good or not. A nice weekend series could do the White Sox good especially with the Tribe and Detroit playing 4.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Jenks Heat