Ozzie Throwing in the Towel... on Himself?

[fathom]

And then Jenks has to go a second inning, at least, and historically Jenks doesn't preform very well in that next inning.

 

Has he even tried to go more than one inning this year? And don't forget, he would have only been facing one batter in the 9th inning no matter what. Coming in and throwing 9 warm-up pitches and 6 pitches or so to Hunter is the same as warming up in between innings in the bullpen. I just think that Ozzie needs to do his best to get MacDougal and Aardsma more action in non-pressure situations in order to get their confidence up.

Edited May 31, 2007 by fathom

[T R U]

You play to win the game (thanks Herman). If Jenks retires Hunter, then you have our 3-4-5 coming up, and the Twins have their bottom of the order coming up in the bottom of the inning.

 

Yes, in football when you only have 16 games you have to make the overall best decision every time or you're f***ed.. its not the same in baseball and I am not saying that doesn't mean you don't have to play to win, however, whose to say that Jenks doesn't give up a hit or a walk? How can everyone just assume Jenks comes in and shuts Hunter down?

 

Either way, the twins were scoring a run or ending the inning.. it didn't matter who was sent out there, there was a 50/50 chance regardless, their either getting out or scoring. And I really don't have a problem with the move that Ozzie made, because if we DID score in the top of the 10th im sure all of us would have been much more comfortable with a fresh Jenks coming out to attempt the save..

[jackie hayes]

And then Jenks has to go a second inning, at least, and historically Jenks doesn't preform very well in that next inning.

I think Aardsma will be a good pitcher, but to be honest, historically he doesn't perform very well, period. Recent history is even less kind. It was a poor decision.

 

Blech -- Mariotti's a...he's useless. This is just rhetoric from Guillen, trying something new. I have no problem with it.

[southsider2k5]

Has he even tried to go more than one inning this year? And don't forget, he would have only been facing one batter in the 9th inning no matter what. Coming in and throwing 9 warm-up pitches and 6 pitches or so to Hunter is the same as warming up in between innings in the bullpen. I just think that Ozzie needs to do his best to get MacDougal and Aardsma more action in non-pressure situations in order to get their confidence up.

 

At home you bring in Jenks, on the road you don't.

[The Ginger Kid]

why do sox fans bother to take mariotti seriously? He's on a mission - he hates all things associated with the sox, and ozzie humiliated him. He hates the man and wants him run out of town.

[fathom]

Yes, in football when you only have 16 games you have to make the overall best decision every time or you're f***ed.. its not the same in baseball and I am not saying that doesn't mean you don't have to play to win, however, whose to say that Jenks doesn't give up a hit or a walk? How can everyone just assume Jenks comes in and shuts Hunter down?

 

There's no way to assume he gets out Hunter. However, if Hunter does beat Jenks in that situation, Jenks is still fine for tonight. For about the 100th time, Ozzie made the right call in bringing in MacDougal to start the inning. However, once it was in the situation with bases loaded, and 2 outs, I severely disagreed with him bringing in Aardsma. Hunter has already had two huge hits against him this year, and Aardsma doesn't have the good offspeed stuff you need to fool Hunter. In the end, it's just another game that this team has blown. That falls on everyone's head.

[LVSoxFan]

why do sox fans bother to take mariotti seriously? He's on a mission - he hates all things associated with the sox, and ozzie humiliated him. He hates the man and wants him run out of town.

 

This thread's not about Marriotti; just Ozzie's quotes. Thanks.

[fathom]

This thread's not about Marriotti; just Ozzie's quotes. Thanks.

 

Yep, I haven't even read Marriotti's article. I saw the quotes Ozzie made in the AL Central thread, and it was disturbing.

[Gregory Pratt]

I see your point and understand it, I see Guillen's too. I believe neither is right nad neither is wrong. Taking the game as a whole I don't see anyone coming up for the Sox as a benefit and worthy of leaving Jenks out there to be done today.

 

If Halladay is on a pitch count (I don't think he will be) these bozo's better make him work as his stamina should be reduced somewhat. The same thing with Clemens Monday. This series will decide if this team is good or not. A nice weekend series could do the White Sox good especially with the Tribe and Detroit playing 4.

 

That was decided a long time ago and the results aren't positive. Come on, we all watch the same games. How can anybody think this team as is isn't average at best?

[CanOfCorn]

Ozzie has NEVER been the type of guy to bring a pitcher into non-pressure situations to get their confidence up. Either you have his confidence or you don't. Ozzie is cut and dry when it comes to that.

 

And he's said as much...this is the major leagues, you have to be prepared everyday. Whether you are down 10 runs or up 1. If that pitcher can't come in and do his job...than he becomes Luis Vizcaino doing mop-up or Marte with a major vote of no-confidence.

[Harry Chappas]

That was decided a long time ago and the results aren't positive. Come on, we all watch the same games. How can anybody think this team as is isn't average at best?

 

Because there are players on this team that are above average, many of them. 80% of this team is underachieving. I think they ran out of gas last year......kind of like the Tigers are looking right now. You and many other people on this site need to stop looking at the last half of last season. If you are going to look at last year, look at the whole year not the second half and then the first part of this season. They won over 90 games last year. Will they this year.....who knows but the Tigers are within reach and as bad as the Sox have played they are still in it. For god sake it is May31st can they go on a run like the 06 Twins, 05 Indians, 02 Marlins, 83 Sox......I don't know but I am not going to say that because they have played average baseball over a span that is irrelevant that they are done. I will rather say this team hasn't played nearly as well as they can. Facing Halladay and Burnett will not be easy but they have to be better at wha they do and go from there.

[RibbieRubarb]

Has he even tried to go more than one inning this year? And don't forget, he would have only been facing one batter in the 9th inning no matter what. Coming in and throwing 9 warm-up pitches and 6 pitches or so to Hunter is the same as warming up in between innings in the bullpen. I just think that Ozzie needs to do his best to get MacDougal and Aardsma more action in non-pressure situations in order to get their confidence up.

 

And then when Jenks gives up the winning run in his second inning of work this place will scream for Ozzie's head again. "Doesn't he know Jenks wouldn't perform well in the second inning of work!?!"

 

I have come to the conclusion about those who hate Ozzie...

If Ozzie sneezes, you say he should have coughed. He'll never do anything right.

Edited May 31, 2007 by RibbieRubarb

[fathom]

And then when Jenks gives up the winning run in his second inning of work this place will scream for Ozzie's head again. "Doesn't he know Jenks wouldn't perform well in the second inning of work!?!"

 

I have come to the conclusion about those who hate Ozzie...

If Ozzie sneezes, you say he should have coughed. He'll never do anything right.

 

I'm shocked at this comment. Anyways, go back and read the game thread. This wasn't a case of second guessing by anyone. Also, for as long as Jenks has been with this team, I've been saying that I'd rather lose with him on the mound than anyone else. At least he makes the other team earn it. He has a history of not walking hitters in big situations and doesn't allow homers. For the usuals who keep sticking up for Ozzie at every turn, what's it going to take for you to start to question if he's the right man for this organization and where they want to go?

[RibbieRubarb]

I'm shocked at this comment. Anyways, go back and read the game thread. This wasn't a case of second guessing by anyone. Also, for as long as Jenks has been with this team, I've been saying that I'd rather lose with him on the mound than anyone else. At least he makes the other team earn it. He has a history of not walking hitters in big situations and doesn't allow homers. For the usuals who keep sticking up for Ozzie at every turn, what's it going to take for you to start to question if he's the right man for this organization and where they want to go?

 

Look, I didn't mean to offend you Fathom. Nor was it an attack. I feel Ozzie has a target on his head when the Sox lose. I think more onus needs to be put on the players than Ozzie. Does Ozzie make mistakes...yes. But I think he has made more good moves than bad.

Edited May 31, 2007 by RibbieRubarb

[fathom]

Look, I didn't mean to offend you Fathom. Nor was it an attack. I feel Ozzie has a target on his head when the Sox lose. I think more onus needs to be put on the players than Ozzie. Does Ozzie make mistakes...yes. But I think he has made more good moves than bad.

 

Fair enough....we can all agree that we just want to see them win at a greater rate than they have since last year's ASB. Maybe we had been spoiled by the success of the 2005 season and the first half of 2006....but we all expect more from this organization than what we've seen.

[joeynach]

I think Ozzie is saying kinda like what Lou was saying on the N Side. I think Ozzie is thinking we got all this talent, we got the same 7 all starts from last years team, we got a bullpen that light up the gun, and yeah we got a few injuries but what more can ozzie do. His guys have just sucked, the same guys who are all all stars have just sucked for him this year. Everyone is hitting a ton below their normal averages, the teams ERA which was like 3.8 about 10 days ago is now 4.52. His guys are getting beat and beating themselves and their numbers prove it. They have track records and they are playing like they are lost, thats on them. Most of them are veteran professionals they know what they need to do its just not working out at this point. Why cant they just suck and be bad, cuz thats all it is. Let them play 162 games maybe they can improve some over their .500 record, but everyone knows its gonna be tough to leap 4 teams, 2 of which who are on pace for 95 wins.

[Soxfest]

OG should decide what he the hell he wants to do but, get the hell off the fence!

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(fathom @ May 31, 2007 -> 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm shocked at this comment. Anyways, go back and read the game thread. This wasn't a case of second guessing by anyone. Also, for as long as Jenks has been with this team, I've been saying that I'd rather lose with him on the mound than anyone else. At least he makes the other team earn it. He has a history of not walking hitters in big situations and doesn't allow homers. For the usuals who keep sticking up for Ozzie at every turn, what's it going to take for you to start to question if he's the right man for this organization and where they want to go?

 

Not to belabor this because all the points have been made but a close save situation is a big situation. Especially with a team that is basically .500 and expected to do lots better, and Jenks has struggled with putting the first couple of guys on with walks in close save situations. Heck the whole staff has had control problems top to bottom with maybe an exception or two. He has walked guys too and I think I looked up yesterday Jenks and Aardsma both walk about one guy every other inning, with Aardsma maybe having a slightly worse ratio or whatever its called. Not to mention whatever mind block prob. BJ has with coming in for nonsave situations. If the staff wants Bobby to get better in nonsave situations then why wouldn't it apply to put him in a nonsave situation that is less pressured. Wouldn't it work both ways, i.e. the example you gave about wanting the mgr to put Mike MacD and Aardsma in less pressure situations. Heck not many in that bullpen is throwing that well, there are 2 maybe 3 at the moment.

 

For the short time I have been here and again this is a really nice site I do not see that many people blindly sticking up for Guillen, but what I do see are posters like rockraines and a few others who fire back at some posters who tend to blame the mgr for everything. To me those Sox fan posters are asking for the blame to be spread more evenly and specifically more on the players since they are the ones screwing up.

 

What I am seeing is a lot of posters here hate Guillen and it is a snowball going downhill as others jump on board with the people who post the most and every time the White Sox lose it is due in small part or mostly large part to some mess up, in their minds, by Guillen. And then they point their fingers and say see I told you our manager is a thisandthat or a soandso.

 

If a player is on the 25 man they will get opportunities. And get used to it, every single mgr in baseball will put guys in sitautions and the fans will say why did he do that. If the player performs good then its ok great, he built this guys confidence. If he messes up, reread the above paragraph, he is a thisandthat or soandso. If anything, to me his biggest mistake has been relying on guys not 100% (Cintron, Mackowiak as they are both hurt) and not benching some of the hitters who give the team bad atbats, he may be too loyal. As for the bullpen they are young and most bullpens even if they are not young are up and down. If these guys are afraid to throw strke 1 and challenge guys then they dont have the stones. Get them out.

 

Lets not forget the mgr went to the GM last winter and said please rebuild my bullpen and get me better guys. So these are the guys he has. And now he says to the GM please get me somebody from our minor leagues because Sisco is bad and he gets Dewon Day and DD is torched.

 

As for hitters he, the mgr, has had this same group pretty much, for 3 yrs 05 06 and now. With an exception here and there. Maybe its time for some better hitters, give the mgrs guys who can get on base as it appears thats what he wants, he has asked time and time again for better ABs. Does anybody really think Uribe or some of these guys will blink the light on and start giving better ab's, no, they are what they are. They need better players is what they need. Easy to say but not that easy to do in the trade market, at least on May 31.

[RibbieRubarb]

Fair enough....we can all agree that we just want to see them win at a greater rate than they have since last year's ASB. Maybe we had been spoiled by the success of the 2005 season and the first half of 2006....but we all expect more from this organization than what we've seen.

 

Hell yeah

[Gregory Pratt]

Because there are players on this team that are above average, many of them. 80% of this team is underachieving. I think they ran out of gas last year......kind of like the Tigers are looking right now. You and many other people on this site need to stop looking at the last half of last season. If you are going to look at last year, look at the whole year not the second half and then the first part of this season. They won over 90 games last year. Will they this year.....who knows but the Tigers are within reach and as bad as the Sox have played they are still in it. For god sake it is May31st can they go on a run like the 06 Twins, 05 Indians, 02 Marlins, 83 Sox......I don't know but I am not going to say that because they have played average baseball over a span that is irrelevant that they are done. I will rather say this team hasn't played nearly as well as they can. Facing Halladay and Burnett will not be easy but they have to be better at wha they do and go from there.

 

They can go on a run but the White Sox generally don't do that and we've got a bunch of older veterans that'll get tired, IMO, and hurt.

 

The Tigers are looking tired to you right now?

Ha!

 

We don't have a team of above-average guys offensively. We have a lousy bench and a bunch of guys that are coming back to Earth. And we don't have the speed to rally without homers unless the other team really f***s up.

 

Defensively.

[BearSox]

I love OG as much as anyone else, but I just get the vibe that he'd be happier living in Venezuela and being a stay at home dad with his family, while being a casual baseball fan, rather then traveling all the time and with the stress of coaching.

 

Just my two cents for the day.

[CWSGuy406]

At home you bring in Jenks, on the road you don't.

 

Oh okay, so you don't use your best reliever in the most crucial situation when the leverage is highest.

 

Thanks.

[fathom]

Oh okay, so you don't use your best reliever in the most crucial situation when the leverage is highest.

 

Thanks.

 

And for the argument that he wouldn't be available tonight: I think avoiding the sweep against your main AL Central rival is more important than a possible save opportunity in the first game of a 4 game series against Toronto.

[CWSGuy406]

And then when Jenks gives up the winning run in his second inning of work this place will scream for Ozzie's head again. "Doesn't he know Jenks wouldn't perform well in the second inning of work!?!"

 

Were you watching the game? No, just pulling this out of your ass? Oh, okay, right. It wouldn't have been a "second inning". Jenks faces Hunter. Hunter gets on base, game over. Hunter makes an out, inning over. That's a third of an inning, and most likely 3-8 pitches.

 

I know it would go against everything you stand for to admit that the Almighty Oz made a mistake, but anyone who looks at baseball with an objective eye -- Ozzie hater or not -- knows how stupid of a move that was. That's it -- that's all that's being said here. I'm not going off on a tangent on whether Ozzie is a great or bad manager. I'm calling a spade a spade, a dumbass move a dumbass move.

 

It's a joke that anyone in this thread is trying to defend it. I'll leave the whole "Ozzie -- good manager or bad manager?" debate to another thread.

[Steff]

Meow, hiss, hiss...