AGon sent down?

[fathom]

and Masset.

 

Oh that's right....we're fine!

[iamshack]

That's 3 guys in the bullpen that you just said we all could of and should have anticipated having problems. And another who has had control and injury problems in the past. That's fine for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays or the KC Royals, but its not a good thing if you are in the business of trying to win a championship. You don't have to buy Aaardsma not being able to handle pressure, but his pitching coach is questioning it. There are a lot of guys who were great in college but were awful professionals, even in lower levels.

 

I suppose we should have signed Joe Borowski and Roberto Hernandez instead.

 

And yet, with the Indians terrible bullpen, they are a first place ballclub. I find it extremely ludicrous to crucify KW about the way this team is performing but praise the job Shapiro has done in Cleveland, considering your barometer is bullpen assemblage.

[hitlesswonder]

I'd enjoy seeing Gio called up. Give us another thing to add to the list of exciting aspects on this team.

 

I think it wouldn't be a bad move. I don't think he's a great prospect, but he's the best pitching prospect the Sox have. If the Sox will fill a rotation slot in 2008 from the minors, odds are it will be Gio. They need to see this season if Gio can keep the ball in the park against major league hitters. If he can't, the Sox will know they need to look elsewhere to fill out the 2008 rotation. I think it's a good idea to bring him up, even though I think it's going to be a HR-fest.

[ShoeLessRob]

Please no Gio in the bullpen. I'd hate to see him up here and pitching every once in a blue moon. He needs to be down starting every 5 days.

[Dick Allen]

I suppose we should have signed Joe Borowski and Roberto Hernandez instead.

 

And yet, with the Indians terrible bullpen, they are a first place ballclub. I find it extremely ludicrous to crucify KW about the way this team is performing but praise the job Shapiro has done in Cleveland, considering your barometer is bullpen assemblage.

Do a search and see if you can find me praising Shapiro about his bullpen. He doesn't have $100 million to spend on the roster though. The funny thing is the board was laughing about the Indians bullpen while posting how dominant the White Sox is, what are their stats?

 

It appears you are one of those guys who thinks KW can do no wrong. That's fine. I disagree with you, and think winning the title has gone to his head.

Edited June 4, 2007 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Do a search and see if you can find me praising Shapiro about his bullpen. He doesn't have $100 million to spend on the roster though. The funny thing is the board was laughing about the Indians bullpen while posting how dominant the White Sox is, what are their stats?

 

I wasn't claiming you personally praised Shapiro for the bullpen he assembled. I'm pointing out to you that Cleveland's bullpen sucks at the moment, and they have historically sucked, and yet, the Indians are in first place and I doubt there are too many people calling for his head on the Indians' boards. On some level the players have to produce, and ours aren't. And when they don't, the best answer isn't simply to criticize the GM or expect him to be fired.

[Dick Allen]

I wasn't claiming you personally praised Shapiro for the bullpen he assembled. I'm pointing out to you that Cleveland's bullpen sucks at the moment, and they have historically sucked, and yet, the Indians are in first place and I doubt there are too many people calling for his head on the Indians' boards. On some level the players have to produce, and ours aren't. And when they don't, the best answer isn't simply to criticize the GM or expect him to be fired.

When you have had the lead in games as much as the White Sox have, and the bullpen gives them away, the lack of improvement from a weakness the previous season becomes even more magnified. The team may not be hitting, but there are so many games lost where if the bullpen was half as good as what the GM said, the Sox would have won. Shapiro I am sure understood his bullpen was a weakness. KW was preaching his was a strength. Its a big difference. If he really expected this particular group to be lights out, his judgement has to be questioned. Of course we don't know if he really truely believed that.

[iamshack]

When you have had the lead in games as much as the White Sox have, and the bullpen gives them away, the lack of improvement from a weakness the previous season becomes even more magnified. The team may not be hitting, but there are so many games lost where if the bullpen was half as good as what the GM said, the Sox would have won. Shapiro I am sure understood his bullpen was a weakness. KW was preaching his was a strength. Its a big difference. If he really expected this particular group to be lights out, his judgement has to be questioned. Of course we don't know if he really truely believed that.

 

Kenny was not running around all offseason claiming he had assembled the best bullpen ever. He defended himself on the McCarthy trade, by asking Sox fans and the media to trust his scouts in accepting the guys he got back. I think, for the most part, that trust has shown to be well-deserved.

 

Three weeks ago the bullpen was a strength of this team. Unfortunately, the last three weeks it has been a huge weakness. The baseball season is long and I am not going to simply pronounce the entire bullpen a complete failure based on three weeks. Get a few things sorted out, get our offense on a roll, take some of the pressure off, get some guys' confidence up, and things can get turned around.

 

I still like the group Kenny has put together, sans Erstad. I'm going to give them more than 50 games before I start claiming he was all wrong.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Do a search and see if you can find me praising Shapiro about his bullpen. He doesn't have $100 million to spend on the roster though. The funny thing is the board was laughing about the Indians bullpen while posting how dominant the White Sox is, what are their stats?

 

It appears you are one of those guys who thinks KW can do no wrong. That's fine. I disagree with you, and think winning the title has gone to his head.

 

I'm not sure if it went to his head, but Williams has always had a little case of the "I'm smarters" -- I suppose you need some of that as a GM, but it overtook him this offseason. His strong, and publicly expressed, contempt for the price of pitching -- particularly starting pitching -- made him do something with very bad consequences: he ditched experienced starters for minor league starters, as opposed to for position players or bullpen help. THAT was the aspect of sacrificing this year for future years that seemed pretty obvious at the time. If you're going to jettison Garcia and McCarthy, but not use those guys to bring back an outfielder to replace Podsednik or Anderson, or a veteral bullpen guy -- then you're putting your chips on projects like Sisco, Aardsma and Erstad. True enough he got Danks, but he did that for years 2008 through 2012, not 2007. And now those decisions are coming home to roost.

[iamshack]

It appears you are one of those guys who thinks KW can do no wrong. That's fine. I disagree with you, and think winning the title has gone to his head.

 

Honestly, it isn't that I am a person who thinks KW can do "no wrong." Admittedly, I happen to believe the vast majority of moves he makes are extremely well-calculated and clever. He's managed to constantly keep this club contending without having any bad contracts, which is one of the most primary duties of any GM. I also believe he is extrememly shrewd in buying low and selling high. I admire his aggressiveness and his dedication. I love how he goes after big name players but also is smart enough to take gambles on guys who are coming off injuries or poor years but still have talent.

 

I don't defend him because I like him, but rather, I like him because I happen to agree with his moves an awful lot. I also understand that stuff happens that is out of his control entirely, and to place blame on him after the fact is irresponsible.

 

I'm not sure if it went to his head, but Williams has always had a little case of the "I'm smarters" -- I suppose you need some of that as a GM, but it overtook him this offseason. His strong, and publicly expressed, contempt for the price of pitching -- particularly starting pitching -- made him do something with very bad consequences: he ditched experienced starters for minor league starters, as opposed to for position players or bullpen help. THAT was the aspect of sacrificing this year for future years that seemed pretty obvious at the time. If you're going to jettison Garcia and McCarthy, but not use those guys to bring back an outfielder to replace Podsednik or Anderson, or a veteral bullpen guy -- then you're putting your chips on projects like Sisco, Aardsma and Erstad. True enough he got Danks, but he did that for years 2008 through 2012, not 2007. And now those decisions are coming home to roost.

 

To be honest with you, the Phillies have absolutely no bullpen help they could have given us. That's why they wanted Macdougal for Rowand. Texas isn't exactly the bullpen capital of the world either, although I would have loved to get back Osuna. Wasn't happening there.

 

I think he made the right move in going after young pitching. While this organization was fairly set in positional players (either because we have signed players in their primes, or because many thought the strength of our positional prospect stable was OF's), people bemoaned the lack of young starting pitching talent in the system, which is exactly what he went and got. While I never understood the fascination with Floyd, I think Gio will turn out to be a solid #2, and partner with Danks and Vazquez for the next 3-4 seasons very well.

[Bubba Philips]

[.

 

A note on Craig Wilson, another 3 striekouts today, he whiffs like crazy.

whifferball?

[southsider2k5]

Thinking on it... does Mac even have any options?

 

Phil Rogers mentioned that he did in the Sunday Trib

 

 

MacDougal for Rowand

kidding.....

 

Rogers also mentioned this deal as a possibility.

[RockRaines]

I noticed that...but neither did Fields as well.

seriously at this point im shipping out Joe Crede and seeing if our spects are the real deal and can help us moving forward. Is there really any doubt that Fields could come up and hit 210-230?

[Rowand44]

seriously at this point im shipping out Joe Crede and seeing if our spects are the real deal and can help us moving forward. Is there really any doubt that Fields could come up and hit 210-230?

Who knows, but at this point, I'm definitely not against trying something new. And Fields seems to be the best bet right now.

Edited June 4, 2007 by Rowand44

[RockRaines]

Who knows, but at this point, I'm definitely not against trying something new. And Fields seems to be the best bet right now.

This season is all but lost with these guys. Lets see who can play and who cant.

[southsider2k5]

seriously at this point im shipping out Joe Crede and seeing if our spects are the real deal and can help us moving forward. Is there really any doubt that Fields could come up and hit 210-230?

 

I'll be really honest here and say I doubt it. Maybe a year, two, or more down the road, but not in 07. He has too many holes in his swing, and the Sox rookie have a terrible history of having long swings that don't adapt well to the majors.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I know a guy that knows someone that knows Reinsdorf and he says that the Sox are working on a revolutionary organizational plan - they will start mixing and rotating players from all 3 rosters (Chicago, Birmingham and Charlotte ).

 

This way they won't get stuck in that rut of having to actually have 25 Major League players on the team.

[hitlesswonder]

I'll be really honest here and say I doubt it. Maybe a year, two, or more down the road, but not in 07. He has too many holes in his swing, and the Sox rookie have a terrible history of having long swings that don't adapt well to the majors.

Agreed. Look at Fields strikeout numbers -- they are worse than Brian Anderson's and we all know how that turned out. Fields doesn't have the contact rate to succeed in the big leagues: southsidesox posted a comparison between him and Johnny Gomes that showed pretty similar minor league numbers except that Gomes had way more power. And Gomes isn't in the bigs. Anyone that expects any White Sox prospect to come up and have anything resembling success at the big league level is delusional. The system is absolutely barren. That being said, I'm all for calling up people and letting them play. It's possible a miracle happens and someone shows some talent or has enough of a hot streak to jack up their trade value. The season is already in the tank, so the Sox might as well play young guys.

[RockRaines]

Agreed. Look at Fields strikeout numbers -- they are worse than Brian Anderson's and we all know how that turned out. Fields doesn't have the contact rate to succeed in the big leagues: southsidesox posted a comparison between him and Johnny Gomes that showed pretty similar minor league numbers except that Gomes had way more power. And Gomes isn't in the bigs. Anyone that expects any White Sox prospect to come up and have anything resembling success at the big league level is delusional. The system is absolutely barren. That being said, I'm all for calling up people and letting them play. It's possible a miracle happens and someone shows some talent or has enough of a hot streak to jack up their trade value. The season is already in the tank, so the Sox might as well play young guys.

I guess you have a point if strikeouts were 100 percent of how to gauge a player. Brian Anderson also didnt have an almost 400 OBP like Fields does. But I guess you chose to ignore his actual statistics. Its not unfathomable to think that Fields could produce as well as Crede at this point.

Edited June 4, 2007 by RockRaines

[klaus kinski]

More & more it seems to be a system wide problem with hitting instruction.

[hitlesswonder]

I guess you have a point if strikeouts were 100 percent of how to gauge a player. Brian Anderson also didnt have an almost 400 OBP like Fields does. But I guess you chose to ignore his actual statistics. Its not unfathomable to think that Fields could produce as well as Crede at this point.

I'll agree to the extent that Crede looks like he'll end up as a sub-.200 hitter pretty soon. But Fields posting a decent OBP in Charlotte is way different than doing it against major league pitching. He's striking out at 30% rate against minor league pitchers. That rate will go up in the bigs, and he'd have to post an incredible BABIP to make up for it. If he keeps walking that will obviously help, but who knows if he can sustain that walk rate in the bigs. It's not like he has a long history as a high-OBP player.In any case, I agree the Sox should call him up and see what he can do. I'm just saying no one should expect success.

[RockRaines]

I'll agree to the extent that Crede looks like he'll end up as a sub-.200 hitter pretty soon. But Fields posting a decent OBP in Charlotte is way different than doing it against major league pitching. He's striking out at 30% rate against minor league pitchers. That rate will go up in the bigs, and he'd have to post an incredible BABIP to make up for it. If he keeps walking that will obviously help, but who knows if he can sustain that walk rate in the bigs. It's not like he has a long history as a high-OBP player.In any case, I agree the Sox should call him up and see what he can do. I'm just saying no one should expect success.

Success is relative in this case. It wouldnt take much for him to produce as well as Crede, and if we can help him develop, get something for Crede, and save some money, its a win/win.

[Steve9347]

Regardless... how much worse than Crede can Fields be???

 

Please trade JOE CREDE!

[Friend of Nordhagen]

I'll agree to the extent that Crede looks like he'll end up as a sub-.200 hitter pretty soon. But Fields posting a decent OBP in Charlotte is way different than doing it against major league pitching. He's striking out at 30% rate against minor league pitchers. That rate will go up in the bigs, and he'd have to post an incredible BABIP to make up for it. If he keeps walking that will obviously help, but who knows if he can sustain that walk rate in the bigs. It's not like he has a long history as a high-OBP player.In any case, I agree the Sox should call him up and see what he can do. I'm just saying no one should expect success.

 

From watching him last September and in spring training this year, Fields has a problem with good fastballs. That's a little disturbing; the usual problem with young hitters is the off-speed stuff. Can he get "quicker" with his swing?

[southsider2k5]

Regardless... how much worse than Crede can Fields be???

 

Please trade JOE CREDE!

 

Fields would probably be hitting about .150, striking out 35-40% of the time, and not fielding nearly as well as Joe.