Why fire Guillen? Williams? or Walker?

[iamshack]

I never said it was a sure fire solution but if there is even a possibility as you stated that firing the hitting coach could get the hitters going even a bit then I don't see the harm in it. As so so so many Walker Backer's have stated: these are professional hitters, Greg Walker isn't really having a huge effect on their production anyway so what's the harm in firing him now?

 

Coincidence or not, at this point I think it's worth the gamble.

 

But it would be a coincidence in definition only if it happened at the same time as Walker's firing. But it is not a result of his firing, and thus, if it is going to occur it will occur whether he is fired or not.

 

I'm not a Walker "backer"- I don't claim to have anywhere near the knowledge or experience to know whether the reason the player's aren't producing is because of something Walker is or is not doing- but I do know this: last year, they hit, and Greg Walker was our hitting coach, so it obviously isn't that our hitters cannot hit with him as our hitting coach. I also know that last year for the majority of the year our starting pitching sucked. We have 4 of those same 5 guys back right now and they all look pretty solid. Should we have fired Cooper?

[Kalapse]

But it would be a coincidence in definition only if it happened at the same time as Walker's firing. But it is not a result of his firing, and thus, if it is going to occur it will occur whether he is fired or not.

 

I'm not a Walker "backer"- I don't claim to have anywhere near the knowledge or experience to know whether the reason the player's aren't producing is because of something Walker is or is not doing- but I do know this: last year, they hit, and Greg Walker was our hitting coach, so it obviously isn't that our hitters cannot hit with him as our hitting coach. I also know that last year for the majority of the year our starting pitching sucked. We have 4 of those same 5 guys back right now and they all look pretty solid. Should we have fired Cooper?

I don't know maybe Coop should have been fired but at no point in time during the year did the entire pitching staff pitch well below the reasonable expectations bestowed upon them all at the same time. At no time last year did the Sox rank dead last in the American League in pitching. Considering the personnel Cooper had last season I'm really not surprised at the struggling that took place.

 

And to say that firing a hitting coach and the offense turning it around at about the same time is only coincidence is an opinion not a fact. In my opinion getting a new voice in the hitter's ears at this point in time could do wonders for the lineup.

[Soxfest]

It is called accountability and someone has to be!

[iamshack]

I don't know maybe Coop should have been fired but at no point in time during the year did the entire pitching staff pitch well below the reasonable expectations bestowed upon them all at the same time. At no time last year did the Sox rank dead last in the American League in pitching. Considering the personnel Cooper had last season I'm really not surprised at the struggling that took place.

 

And to say that firing a hitting coach and the offense turning it around at about the same time is only coincidence is an opinion not a fact. In my opinion getting a new voice in the hitter's ears at this point in time could do wonders for the lineup.

 

I'm not saying it would be a fact. I'm merely saying that if he is really one of the best hitting coaches in baseball as we are consistently told he is (how we could somehow know whether or not that is true is practically impossible), I'm not willing to fire him on the "chance" that our hitters "may" start hitting again.

 

It is called accountability and someone has to be!

 

Yes. THE PLAYERS? What a novel concept!

[Soxfest]

Yes. THE PLAYERS? What a novel concept!

 

KW put the players on roster he gets glory in 2005 now time to take blame in 2007!

Edited June 4, 2007 by Soxfest

[max power]

There's nothing quite like pinching a loaf in the deep fryer, let me tell you.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that's his job title. What is his job description.

 

And a better analogy would be Walker is your McDonalds Supervisor and under his watch you and 6 other employees have been taking regular afternoon s***s in the deep fryer. There is no real way for the restaurant to get rid of the lot of you due to cooperate and FDA regulations, so they're stuck with your miserable ass no matter terrible your fries are. In the past when fry cooks had acted up firing the Supervisor would give the whole group a little jolt and brought about some overall acceptable production in the french fry department.

 

Really Walker isn't doing much as your Supervisor just kind of standing around watching his professional fry makers struggle to make a quality french fry so firing him would be no big loss in the grand scheme of things but canning his ass now could get the fry makers going and the McDonald's could once again start performing at the level excellence which is expected of it.

So you think a change in the hitting coach is going to get this team hitting? A change in coaching, unless he has lost his players or the players can't stand him or he is an unorganized worthless piece of crap then what is the new coach going to say or do to change this team's hitting? If there is a change made in coaching it will be a cosmetic change to appease the fans such as you. It would be to make a change for change sake and make it look as though a change is going to happen - when in fact nothing different is taking place besides a different sounding voice and different face in the dugout/clubhouse. A change in coaching, in this instance, would be useless and would do absolutely nothing, unless he is infact doing nothing to try to improve this team and he is just sitting back, falling asleep at the wheel, and just watching his workers s*** in the deepfryer as you said. I doubt that is happening.

The approach in hitting my be an organizational approach - and it seems to be that way. So whoever they bring in will most likely have the same approach. Why would anyone think it would be any different?

Edited June 4, 2007 by southsideirish

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Soxfest @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

KW put the players on roster he gets glory in 2005 now time to take blame in 2007!

He did? Who gave him credit? Very few people if any at all. Most thought Oz and Coop did a hell of a job - but KW didn't get much credit. He didn't win any awards for his job in 2005. It seems he always gets s*** on around here. He had a pretty damn good plan and still made some good signings and trades - Toby Hall, Darin Erstad, John Danks, Nick Massett - he still can't win. His plan was a good one with the bullpen - it isn't working now even though it did the first month - but he had a plan and it seemed to be a good one.

I like having one of the most aggressive GMs in baseball. I like that he always wants to win. I like that we always seem to have a good product on the field and always seem to have a realistic chance to win. It has been that way under his watch.His worst season as GM was in 2002 at 81-81. He has never had a losing season as GM with the White Sox in 5 years. That says a lot. I appreciate the job he has done and respect it. I have faith in him to do his job and get the correct players in here in order to win this year and the years following. I would be shocked if he didn't make any moves to try and better this team immediately.

[caulfield12]

He did? Who gave him credit? Very few people if any at all. Most thought Oz and Coop did a hell of a job - but KW didn't get much credit. He didn't win any awards for his job in 2005. It seems he always gets s*** on around here. He had a pretty damn good plan and still made some good signings and trades - Toby Hall, Darin Erstad, John Danks, Nick Massett - he still can't win. His plan was a good one with the bullpen - it isn't working now even though it did the first month - but he had a plan and it seemed to be a good one.

I like having one of the most aggressive GMs in baseball. I like that he always wants to win. I like that we always seem to have a good product on the field and always seem to have a realistic chance to win. It has been that way under his watch.His worst season as GM was in 2002 at 81-81. He has never had a losing season as GM with the White Sox in 5 years. That says a lot. I appreciate the job he has done and respect it. I have faith in him to do his job and get the correct players in here in order to win this year and the years following. I would be shocked if he didn't make any moves to try and better this team immediately.

 

 

I'll give you a pass on Masset after yesterday, due to the two times he had extended outings (one the Cubs' start) leading directly to Sox wins or comebacks. Still, a 7+ ERA can hardly be called a feather in your cap either, so we're giving him credit strictly based on "potential" and not consistent results.

 

Sisco and MacDougal are not looking good, and Aardsma is struggling about as bad as anyone too. In fact, we're to the point where we don't have a single reliable RHer and too many lefties (Vazquez, Sisco).

Edited June 4, 2007 by caulfield12

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll give you a pass on Masset after yesterday, due to the two times he had extended outings (one the Cubs' start) leading directly to Sox wins or comebacks. Still, a 7+ ERA can hardly be called a feather in your cap either, so we're giving him credit strictly based on "potential" and not consistent results.

 

Sisco and MacDougal are not looking good, and Aardsma is struggling about as bad as anyone too. In fact, we're to the point where we don't have a single reliable RHer and too many lefties (Vazquez, Sisco).

So then your saying the plan was crap from the beginning? The bullpen looked like crap from the beginning? OK - you are entitled to your opinion.

As far as Massett goes, if you can't see the potential in him and probably a starter for us soon, then I don't know what to tell you. That Danks/Massett/Rasner for McCarthy trade was unbelievable. I am sorry you can't see that as a feather in KWs cap.

Certain players faile KW and the gang. For instance - McDougal should not be this bad.

 

 

A quote from Ozzie himself about the hitting. Makes sense to me.

''Finally, for the first time I'm going to blame the players because 'Igu' (Tadahito Iguchi), (Jim) Thome, (Jermaine) Dye, (Paul) Konerko, Pierzynski, (Joe) Crede, (Rob) Mackowiak, (Juan) Uribe, they don't need a coach, that's a veteran team, they hit before. We ask them if they need extra hitting, do you need more work, less work, we try everything. Nothing is working.''

[Steve9347]

I think Ozzie's quick trigger to go to a struggling bullpen has been warrant enough for him to be gonzo.

[caulfield12]

So then your saying the plan was crap from the beginning? The bullpen looked like crap from the beginning? OK - you are entitled to your opinion.

As far as Massett goes, if you can't see the potential in him and probably a starter for us soon, then I don't know what to tell you. That Danks/Massett/Rasner for McCarthy trade was unbelievable. I am sorry you can't see that as a feather in KWs cap.

Certain players faile KW and the gang. For instance - McDougal should not be this bad.

 

 

No, I never said that.

 

I could have told them not to take Sisco and MacDougal though, I've seen them a ton since I live in KC (and have lived here for 10 years now), and both are huge projects...even though MacDougal had 21/24 saves one year, it was in the style of Doug Jones and would make Jenks look like Mariano Rivera in 1996-2000.

 

MacDougal has never been able to throw consistent strikes, same with Sisco.

 

Aardsma, we simply couldn't take another chance on Cotts, and Aardsma might turn out okay, but he hasn't been the same since the Thames homer in Detroit.

 

I think the Danks/Masset deal was a good one, I don't think anyone will be able to sit back and call it "great" until 2-3 years from now, same with with Gio and Floyd needing to produce something at the MLB level....because none of that money was invested in at least one veteran reliever.

 

Of course, look at the Indians, they threw out contracts to Williamson, Baez, Walker and Bradford and most of those guys have predictably struggled and soaked up about $15 million in payroll. Same thing with Howry and Eyre, who were overused and abused by Baker (see White Sox/Torborg/Thigpen).

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Ozzie's quick trigger to go to a struggling bullpen has been warrant enough for him to be gonzo.

Quick trigger? Only Danks is averaging less than 6 innings an outing and he is at about 5 and a third. That has to be up there at the top of the league for starting pitchers. If the bullpen wasn't that bad you would not be complaining at all. And if the starters were left in an innning longer and the games were being lost you would be complaining that they are being left in there too long. It is a no win situation for the manager.

 

 

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I never said that.

 

I could have told them not to take Sisco and MacDougal though, I've seen them a ton since I live in KC (and have lived here for 10 years now), and both are huge projects...even though MacDougal had 21/24 saves one year, it was in the style of Doug Jones and would make Jenks look like Mariano Rivera in 1996-2000.

 

MacDougal has never been able to throw consistent strikes, same with Sisco.

 

Aardsma, we simply couldn't take another chance on Cotts, and Aardsma might turn out okay, but he hasn't been the same since the Thames homer in Detroit.

 

I think the Danks/Masset deal was a good one, I don't think anyone will be able to sit back and call it "great" until 2-3 years from now, same with with Gio and Floyd needing to produce something at the MLB level....because none of that money was invested in at least one veteran reliever.

 

Of course, look at the Indians, they threw out contracts to Williamson, Baez, Walker and Bradford and most of those guys have predictably struggled and soaked up about $15 million in payroll. Same thing with Howry and Eyre, who were overused and abused by Baker (see White Sox/Torborg/Thigpen).

OK, but isn't this the same type of pitcher they acquired in Thorton last year and the Sox were successful in turning around? If you were in Seattle and saw Thorton pitch you probably would have said the same thing about him, but he turned out ok. Guys that throw hard and had trouble throwing strikes? They didn't give up much to acquire either one of Sisco or McDougal. Like I said - the plan was good - the players are failing him.

I never brought up the Gio and Floyd trade, however, the Danks Massett deal is going turn out to be great for the Sox. Where was the money invested? Our payroll looks about the same to me. It must have went somewhere. I would never accuse the Sox of not spending money.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like having one of the most aggressive GMs in baseball. I like that he always wants to win. I like that we always seem to have a good product on the field and always seem to have a realistic chance to win. It has been that way under his watch.His worst season as GM was in 2002 at 81-81. He has never had a losing season as GM with the White Sox in 5 years. That says a lot. I appreciate the job he has done and respect it. I have faith in him to do his job and get the correct players in here in order to win this year and the years following. I would be shocked if he didn't make any moves to try and better this team immediately.

 

southsideirish:

 

May I say in the short time I've been here you are one of my favorite posters. I tend to agree with your views but its not just that aspect. You tend to present a balanced viewpoint and it is obvious you have been a fan that has seen the ups and downs.

 

Living down in the neighborhood, sometimes we hear things. Some of it is nonsense and yes there is a fair amount of bar chatter which turns out to be shall we say embellishment. But I quoted that part of your post for a reason. There are guys who are in and around the neighborhood who work for the team and have their ear to the ground, no they are not in the GM room so it is unfair of me to say they "know" something. Generally though the group that works there is pretty close knit, Reinsdorf likes to have a "family" atmosphere. Those people do have a sense of whats going on and things get said, things get passed along.

 

Anyway I do know this, Williams right now is boiling. He is prob. as pissed as he has ever been and he has been quiet because he doesnt want to say the wrong things to the media, thats how pissed off he is. Talk about a competitive guy. I have been fortunate enough to spend a bit of time around him here and there over the last few years and he chooses his words carefully in public but he tries to be as direct and honest as possible.

 

What this means is its my somewhat educated guess this bullpen shakeup is the first change, and not the last. Well duh I think fans know that. The SunTimes article today on JD and Abreu was interesting. Lets face it the Sox were hoping Sweeney would be ready to go for '08 and he may be but they have their doubts as they feel he was overmatched at the plate. He may need more time. Whoever the ST writer was who wrote that story, he quoted a Sox source saying that rumor has some legs.

 

One thing you can bet, Guillen does not care if a guy is from Venezuela or Mars or Pluto but he wants guys who can get on base. Sox have been woefully weak in that dept. Among other shortcomings.

[WCSox]

He did? Who gave him credit? Very few people if any at all. Most thought Oz and Coop did a hell of a job - but KW didn't get much credit. He didn't win any awards for his job in 2005. It seems he always gets s*** on around here. He had a pretty damn good plan and still made some good signings and trades - Toby Hall, Darin Erstad, John Danks, Nick Massett - he still can't win. His plan was a good one with the bullpen - it isn't working now even though it did the first month - but he had a plan and it seemed to be a good one.

I like having one of the most aggressive GMs in baseball. I like that he always wants to win. I like that we always seem to have a good product on the field and always seem to have a realistic chance to win. It has been that way under his watch.His worst season as GM was in 2002 at 81-81. He has never had a losing season as GM with the White Sox in 5 years. That says a lot. I appreciate the job he has done and respect it. I have faith in him to do his job and get the correct players in here in order to win this year and the years following. I would be shocked if he didn't make any moves to try and better this team immediately.

 

Excellent post.

 

This lineup scored 868 runs last season. But it's Kenny's fault that they're not producing now? I have no problem with them replacing Greg Walker, but blaming Kenny is just retarded.

 

As for the bullpen, this team already has a lineup and starting rotation full of recently-productive, high-priced veteran players. And also a semi-stud closer. JR's spending in the neighborhood of $100 million on that. But he was "cheap" with the long and middle relief? Jesus Christ, what else do you people want? Dennis Eckersley and Marino Rivera in their primes? Or is it KW's fault for not predicing that MacDougal's ERA would be near double his career average this year?

 

Apparently some people are forgetting that it wasn't too long ago that Jamie Navarro, James Baldwin, and Mike Sirotka were anchoring our rotation. And our middle and long relief consisted of crap like Carlos Castillo and Bobby Howry. I'll take our current situation over the late '90s Ron Schueler teams any day.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

southsideirish:

 

May I say in the short time I've been here you are one of my favorite posters. I tend to agree with your views but its not just that aspect. You tend to present a balanced viewpoint and it is obvious you have been a fan that has seen the ups and downs.

 

Living down in the neighborhood, sometimes we hear things. Some of it is nonsense and yes there is a fair amount of bar chatter which turns out to be shall we say embellishment. But I quoted that part of your post for a reason. There are guys who are in and around the neighborhood who work for the team and have their ear to the ground, no they are not in the GM room so it is unfair of me to say they "know" something. Generally though the group that works there is pretty close knit, Reinsdorf likes to have a "family" atmosphere. Those people do have a sense of whats going on and things get said, things get passed along.

 

Anyway I do know this, Williams right now is boiling. He is prob. as pissed as he has ever been and he has been quiet because he doesnt want to say the wrong things to the media, thats how pissed off he is. Talk about a competitive guy. I have been fortunate enough to spend a bit of time around him here and there over the last few years and he chooses his words carefully in public but he tries to be as direct and honest as possible.

 

What this means is its my somewhat educated guess this bullpen shakeup is the first change, and not the last. Well duh I think fans know that. The SunTimes article today on JD and Abreu was interesting. Lets face it the Sox were hoping Sweeney would be ready to go for '08 and he may be but they have their doubts as they feel he was overmatched at the plate. He may need more time. Whoever the ST writer was who wrote that story, he quoted a Sox source saying that rumor has some legs.

 

One thing you can bet, Guillen does not care if a guy is from Venezuela or Mars or Pluto but he wants guys who can get on base. Sox have been woefully weak in that dept. Among other shortcomings.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[witesoxfan]

There's nothing quite like pinching a loaf in the deep fryer, let me tell you.

 

Oh no, you're not telling me, you're simply in agreement with me.