The Reason This Team is Bad, and Yes: It's Ozzie's Fault

[WCSox]

KW must go first for failing to assemble a solid base of talent. He has brought in a bunch of wanna be sluggers who cannot put the ball in play consistently. The whole scouting department is a mess and that falls back on KW. I dont care who the manager of this team is, if the players cant play the game we are not going to win.

 

I remember the Sox having one of the top minor league systems under Schueler in the late '90s. How'd that work out in the end?

 

And LOL at the "wannabe" sluggers comment. Yeah, Dye and Thome both suck.

Edited June 6, 2007 by WCSox

[Harry Chappas]

I think we're now at 12-13 leads blown from the 6th inning on.

 

As Hawk said, we had the lead at one point in most of the games on that roadtrip, with the exception of the Halladay start.

 

The only reason we have had the lead is because the starting pitching has been lights out. I do not count a lead of 3 to 1 or 4 to 2 all that great. In the American League a GOOD team should average over 5 runs a game. The White Sox have scored more than 5 runs twice in the last 13 games. The bullpen is being asked to do something that is not realistic for them.

 

Look at the salaries of the guys failing on this team. If you want to get by with the league minimum in your pen that is fine but the players being paid to hit should hit. The money that is spent on this team is on starting pitching and home run hitters. One is doing their job most of the time the othere is failing miserably.

 

The bullpen is magnified because every game is close and if they give up a run the offense is unable to get it back.

[SoxFan1]

I was listening to a conversation between our local (KC) sports talk host and Jayson Stark yesterday, talking about Piniella, along with the "interesting" Sheffield revelations (Stark admitted he hasn't talked to Sheffield for years after Gary disagreed with one of his columns when he was with the Dodgers).

 

At any rate, he (Stark) basically argued that Piniella was "disengaging" from this current team, because he had been privately telling friends in the game that the pieces just didn't fit together in Chicago, that while there was the potential certainly, he didn't have "his type of team" and there wasn't much that could be done about it. Of course, now that rumors are flying he's lost the clubhouse, he's probably going to tighten the reigns a little bit, but Piniella has done a lot of player blaming over there...his "bring in some damn players who can play the game" and constant swipes at them in the press the past two weeks are not helping either.

 

If you were Ozzie and had to choose between Bukvich, Logan, Prinz and Dewon Day to stay in a game, I bet you'd pretty much throw your hands up in frustration too. This is definitely not Ozzie's type of team, and I'm willing to give him a year or two with a White Sox team with a different composition...faster, younger, more fundamentally sound players.

 

I think these "homer or bust/push-pull" teams are more a creation of KW and this annoying theory that White Sox fans have always preferred home runs and .500 teams to "small ball" and playoff contenders...or maybe, it's the idea that if the majority of teams are going to be "average," it's best to entertain them with offense instead of defense?

 

At any rate, I think Ozzie knows the writing is on the wall with this team (the current version) and he is disengaging a little bit, which coincides with our second half slide and first half fizzle this year. And I think the whole Mariotti flap really changed him too, for the worse.

That is one of the better posts I have seen in PHT in a while.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

KW deserves a lot of blame for this bullpen, but it's amazing how fast people forget all the good moves he's made.

[caulfield12]

The only reason we have had the lead is because the starting pitching has been lights out. I do not count a lead of 3 to 1 or 4 to 2 all that great. In the American League a GOOD team should average over 5 runs a game. The White Sox have scored more than 5 runs twice in the last 13 games. The bullpen is being asked to do something that is not realistic for them.

 

Look at the salaries of the guys failing on this team. If you want to get by with the league minimum in your pen that is fine but the players being paid to hit should hit. The money that is spent on this team is on starting pitching and home run hitters. One is doing their job most of the time the othere is failing miserably.

 

The bullpen is magnified because every game is close and if they give up a run the offense is unable to get it back.

 

I don't think salary is the only measure you can look at for bullpen pitchers.

 

The Cubs and Orioles spending $15-20 million on their bullpens hasn't necessarily solved all their problems.

 

Realistically, you could say that much was expected of Jenks, Thornton and MacDougal, because they were the "veterans" of that group and had signed long-term, guaranteed contracts. Fair enough? I guess it would be interesting to look at the 5 best bullpens in the league and their salaries, vis a vis the White Sox.

 

The whole debate comes down to whether paying Keith Foulke, Joe Borowski, Jose Mesa, Jamie Walker, Roberto Hernandez, Chris Speier, Williamson, Baez, Bradford, etc., would have been worth it. Heck, you can also debate ad infinitum whether paying Mackowiak, Hall and Cintron so much as bench players makes any sense, as opposed to putting that $7.5 million or whatever it is into the bullpen instead.

 

I guess we'll never know who KW was after in this case, as we did hear that KW was very close to Myers last year, and that LH relief position eventually solidified itself, although it would have been nice to have another reliable lefty after Cotts and Logan, although most would consider that something of a luxury.

 

The Padres, I think, don't have a LH, yet have one of the best bullpens in the league.

[greg775]

If you were Ozzie and had to choose between Bukvich, Logan, Prinz and Dewon Day to stay in a game, I bet you'd pretty much throw your hands up in frustration too.

 

That is the line of the season.

You can't win without talent. Period.

I hope somehow the team can start hitting home runs in bunches because that's the

only way the Sox have a chance at contending for wild card.

That is assuming the starting pitching stays this good.

[Rowand44]

As much as Ozzie bugs the hell out of me, blaming this season on him is absolutely ridiculous.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 08:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple, measuring times to 1B from the batter's box, first to third, second to home....triples would be another category.

 

We are a slow, station-to-station team. It's incredible the difference when you watch someone like Owens out there compared to the rest, or Ray Durham, or even Willie Harris (in the past).

 

Of course, those times indicate speed and quickness/explosiveness, there are lots of other indications, such as stolen bases or fewest times grounding in a DP per plate appearance.

 

Nobody will dispute the fact that we're one of the slowest teams in the majors, if not THE slowest, without either Pods or Owens in the line-up.

 

There are no positions that we are above major league average in terms of athletic ability for that particular position, just think of it like that.

Athleticism and speed are completely differnt things. I never said we weren't slow. But to equate athleticism with speed is not correct. I will state again that you have no idea how athletic or unathletic a person is on this team. By seeing some of the plays that are made I would say Dye, Erstad, Uribe, Iguchi, Crede, Pods, and even A.J. have above athletic ability. Speed is a whole different category.

 

 

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you are relying on Alex Cintron, Rob Mackowiak, Jerry Owens as starters and a host of aging, slow-footed slumping power hitters, very little ability to run the bases and manufacture runs, combined with a bullpen that is in serious meltdown mode it's amazing to me this team isn't 15 below .500

 

Without some pretty good starting pitching we'd be well out of this thing.

 

I don't think Whitey Herzog could get much more out of this team. It's laborious to watch and the talent is very one-dimensional. Our minors looks depleted (although Gio, Egg, Cunningham, Russell and maybe Getz hold some promise) and we are playing in a division with 3 wrecking crew teams.

When you say depleted are you suggesting that the team would have been better off without trading away a lot of the minor league players that they did? If not then I don't think you are using the correct verbage. If you are then I would like to know how you can suggest something like that when much of the "talent" that was traded sucks ass and is nowhere to be found.

[GreenSox]

I think these "homer or bust/push-pull" teams are more a creation of KW and this annoying theory that White Sox fans have always preferred home runs and .500 teams to "small ball" and playoff contenders...or maybe, it's the idea that if the majority of teams are going to be "average," it's best to entertain them with offense instead of defense?

 

At any rate, I think Ozzie knows the writing is on the wall with this team (the current version) and he is disengaging a little bit, which coincides with our second half slide and first half fizzle this year. And I think the whole Mariotti flap really changed him too, for the worse.

I think it's more Ozzie - Ozzie likes free swingers, including, if not especially, those with no power. Ozzie was a free swinger with no power and Ozzie considers Ozzie to have been a good hitter (he was a well below-average hitter). Ozzie doesn't like the walkers, he likes the slap hitters. That's what we've got a team full of - hitters that swing at everything. And I see no evidence that Ozzie or Walker is interested in more OBP or plate patience.

 

That said, I think this roster, when healthy, is not championship quality. So, there's only so much Ozzie can do. BUT I think Kenny gets the players that fit Ozzie's philosophy.

Edited June 6, 2007 by GreenSox

[Gregory Pratt]

I think it's more Ozzie - Ozzie likes free swingers, including, if not especially, those with no power. Ozzie was a free swinger with no power and Ozzie considers Ozzie to have been a good hitter (he was a well below-average hitter). Ozzie doesn't like the walkers, he likes the slap hitters. That's what we've got a team full of - hitters that swing at everything. And I see no evidence that Ozzie or Walker is interested in more OBP or plate patience.

 

Ozzie always talks about how he used to hit ninth for a reason and makes fun of himself as a bad hitter. So I don't see where you get what you're saying

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's more Ozzie - Ozzie likes free swingers, including, if not especially, those with no power. Ozzie was a free swinger with no power and Ozzie considers Ozzie to have been a good hitter (he was a well below-average hitter). Ozzie doesn't like the walkers, he likes the slap hitters. That's what we've got a team full of - hitters that swing at everything. And I see no evidence that Ozzie or Walker is interested in more OBP or plate patience.

 

That said, I think this roster, when healthy, is not championship quality. So, there's only so much Ozzie can do. BUT I think Kenny gets the players that fit Ozzie's philosophy.

This post is the biggest bunch of B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T I have read today. When did Ozzie make it seem like he likes the players you suggested? Walker always talks about players hitting it back up the middle and not worry about homeruns because they will come. Everyone likes high OBP guys and hitters with patience. This may be the most moronic post of the century. Either that or it is a bunch of sarcasm that can not be detected.

Edited June 6, 2007 by southsideirish

[caulfield12]

Athleticism and speed are completely differnt things. I never said we weren't slow. But to equate athleticism with speed is not correct. I will state again that you have no idea how athletic or unathletic a person is on this team. By seeing some of the plays that are made I would say Dye, Erstad, Uribe, Iguchi, Crede, Pods, and even A.J. have above athletic ability. Speed is a whole different category.

When you say depleted are you suggesting that the team would have been better off without trading away a lot of the minor league players that they did? If not then I don't think you are using the correct verbage. If you are then I would like to know how you can suggest something like that when much of the "talent" that was traded sucks ass and is nowhere to be found.

 

 

I'll just say that speed is one important aspect of athleticism and leave it at that.

 

I agree that there are some things that Uribe does very athletically...but he's not a basestealer. Crede has very good "range" but he's not quick or fast. Ozuna, Anderson, Sweeney, Erstad and even a healthy Mack are good athletes, although none of them are burners...not even Pablo.

 

Owens is more what I had in mind, but you can't have 9 Juan Pierre's on your ballclub, or even Erick Aybar, or your team OPS will be in the 600's or low 700's.

 

Pods, of course was a great high school athlete. I'm not sure anyone can compare to what Erstad did in high school, he reminds me a little of Iowa SG Adam Haluska.

 

Just the very nature of ball/bat contact is incredibly athletic....Thome, Konerko, Dye. Dye, at one point, used to have one of the three best RF throwing arms in the game. Now he's a little above average.

 

On the mound, Garland and Buehrle and even Javier (in BP as well) are very natural and instinctive athletes.

 

What I was getting at, if you were to ask 100 scouts (and each was to have his own version of what "athleticism" was....and some would think of Bo Jackson right off the top of their heads, some might think of Roberto Clemente!)...which White Sox players were in the top half at their positions athletically in the major leagues, you wouldn't find many.

 

You can make an argument for Uribe, for a healthy Pods and Erstad....for Garland.

 

Of course, just because you take athletic or gifted players (think Borchard or Fields or Kenny Williams or Brian West), that doesn't mean you have a major leaguer either. Or look at Michael Jordan, for another example. Supposedly, Tiger Woods doesn't look very good in BP, although I'm not sure I believe that one.

[mr_genius]

I was listening to a conversation between our local (KC) sports talk host and Jayson Stark yesterday, talking about Piniella, along with the "interesting" Sheffield revelations (Stark admitted he hasn't talked to Sheffield for years after Gary disagreed with one of his columns when he was with the Dodgers).

 

At any rate, he (Stark) basically argued that Piniella was "disengaging" from this current team, because he had been privately telling friends in the game that the pieces just didn't fit together in Chicago, that while there was the potential certainly, he didn't have "his type of team" and there wasn't much that could be done about it. Of course, now that rumors are flying he's lost the clubhouse, he's probably going to tighten the reigns a little bit, but Piniella has done a lot of player blaming over there...his "bring in some damn players who can play the game" and constant swipes at them in the press the past two weeks are not helping either.

 

If you were Ozzie and had to choose between Bukvich, Logan, Prinz and Dewon Day to stay in a game, I bet you'd pretty much throw your hands up in frustration too. This is definitely not Ozzie's type of team, and I'm willing to give him a year or two with a White Sox team with a different composition...faster, younger, more fundamentally sound players.

 

I think these "homer or bust/push-pull" teams are more a creation of KW and this annoying theory that White Sox fans have always preferred home runs and .500 teams to "small ball" and playoff contenders...or maybe, it's the idea that if the majority of teams are going to be "average," it's best to entertain them with offense instead of defense?

 

At any rate, I think Ozzie knows the writing is on the wall with this team (the current version) and he is disengaging a little bit, which coincides with our second half slide and first half fizzle this year. And I think the whole Mariotti flap really changed him too, for the worse.

 

Great post, I pretty much agree with all of it.

Edited June 7, 2007 by mr_genius

[Gregory Pratt]

''We have a good club, but we're just not playing that way now,'' veteran Jim Thome said. ''It is frustrating. You can't pinpoint what's happening, it's just not happening. If we didn't have a good team, that would be OK with what we do. It's not fun.''

 

And Guillen plans on changing that. If his team really is a sinking ship, he said it's going down his way.

 

''I'm going to start doing things differently,'' Guillen said. ''If this is my last year, I don't want to look back and say I didn't have fun.''

 

I really don't like the thought of firing Guillen, or of Guillen leaving.

[GreenSox]

This post is the biggest bunch of B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T I have read today. When did Ozzie make it seem like he likes the players you suggested? Walker always talks about players hitting it back up the middle and not worry about homeruns because they will come. Everyone likes high OBP guys and hitters with patience. This may be the most moronic post of the century. Either that or it is a bunch of sarcasm that can not be detected.

Oh, yea, Ozzie's a big believer in plate patience and taking walks and waiting for a ball that you can hit. What a howler that is. And you call my post BS? The "evidence" you provide is walker saying he wants players that can hit up the middle. There's a big difference between not swinging for the fences and plate patience.

On the other hand, this staff has: drooled over free-swinging Erstad and labelling Erstad a .400 quality hitter when he was hitting below .200. When he uses Alex Cintron as a pinch-hitter. When he loads the team up with free swingers.

 

If they believed in patience wouldn't at least ONE of the slap hitters take walks. You'd think, but none do under this staff. Do you see hitters taking walks when Guillen and Walker coach them? Do you ever see Guillen criticiizing a player (which he loves to do in general) for swinging at everything.

 

The Sox aren't alone. The Angels aren't an OBP team either and they've had success. The Sox won a WS with free swingers. You can do it if you get good hitting free swingers. Right now, we feature Rob M., two rookies, and Alex Cintron as pinch hitter (and a cold rest of the team). THAT is the problem.

Edited June 7, 2007 by GreenSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Just about everything in your post is wrong but I'm on my way out so I've got to gooooooooooooo

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, yea, Ozzie's a big believer in plate patience and taking walks and waiting for a ball that you can hit. What a howler that is. And you call my post BS? The "evidence" you provide is walker saying he wants players that can hit up the middle. There's a big difference between not swinging for the fences and plate patience.

On the other hand, this staff has: drooled over free-swinging Erstad and labelling Erstad a .400 quality hitter when he was hitting below .200. When he uses Alex Cintron as a pinch-hitter. When he loads the team up with free swingers.

 

If they believed in patience wouldn't at least ONE of the slap hitters take walks. You'd think, but none do under this staff. Do you see hitters taking walks when Guillen and Walker coach them? Do you ever see Guillen criticiizing a player (which he loves to do in general) for swinging at everything.

 

The Sox aren't alone. The Angels aren't an OBP team either and they've had success. The Sox won a WS with free swingers. You can do it if you get good hitting free swingers. Right now, we feature Rob M., two rookies, and Alex Cintron as pinch hitter (and a cold rest of the team). THAT is the problem.

 

He's not? What manager/coach isn't a fan of patience or taking walks or waiting for a ball that you can hit? What coach or manager tells a player to swing at anything and everything? You must be kidding me. Right? These last 2 posts of yours have to be jokes. Who are these slap hitters you are talking about? Jerry Owens is the only slap hitter on the team as far as I can tell. Maybe - possibly - Erstad. Guillen is aggressive by nature - but I can't imagine he or anyone else does not like patience and taking walks as opposed to free swinging and striking out. I can't imagine Ozzie critizicing his team for taking too many walks or seeing too many pitches. How ridiculous is that? These last 2 posts by you are amazing. How don't know what you could possibly be thinking.

 

The last part of your post - we had good free swingers in 2005 and bad free swingers now? In our everyday lineup - what changes have been made? Jim Thome and Darin Erstad for Frank Thomas/Carl Everett and Aaron Rowand? So you think Jim Thome is a worse hitter than the combination of Frank Thomas and Carl Everett and Darin Erstad is a worse hitter than Aaron Rowand? You have wierd opinions.

Edited June 7, 2007 by southsideirish

[caulfield12]

Oh, yea, Ozzie's a big believer in plate patience and taking walks and waiting for a ball that you can hit. What a howler that is. And you call my post BS? The "evidence" you provide is walker saying he wants players that can hit up the middle. There's a big difference between not swinging for the fences and plate patience.

On the other hand, this staff has: drooled over free-swinging Erstad and labelling Erstad a .400 quality hitter when he was hitting below .200. When he uses Alex Cintron as a pinch-hitter. When he loads the team up with free swingers.

 

If they believed in patience wouldn't at least ONE of the slap hitters take walks. You'd think, but none do under this staff. Do you see hitters taking walks when Guillen and Walker coach them? Do you ever see Guillen criticiizing a player (which he loves to do in general) for swinging at everything.

 

The Sox aren't alone. The Angels aren't an OBP team either and they've had success. The Sox won a WS with free swingers. You can do it if you get good hitting free swingers. Right now, we feature Rob M., two rookies, and Alex Cintron as pinch hitter (and a cold rest of the team). THAT is the problem.

 

 

You could argue that Cintron and Mackowiak SHOULD be slap hitters based on their power totals, but they aren't accurately described as that...and Cintron doesn't have the speed to be a slap hitter.

[The Ginger Kid]

There's no doubt that mistakes were made in building this season's team and evaluating/projecting their talent and ability. But is it right to fire them (KW, Ozzie, coaches) over this? Or have they earned the opportunity to try and turn things around?

 

That to me is the question. And while a lot of people are sick of bringing up '05, I do think it's earned them the opportunity to try and get it right.

[Baines3]

I can't blame it all on Ozzie either. When a team is going bad like this one is the manager will always be the first to take the heat for it, hopefully KW will keep Ozzie as manager.

[BearSox]

I can't blame it all on Ozzie either. When a team is going bad like this one is the manager will always be the first to take the heat for it, hopefully KW will keep Ozzie as manager.

Hopefully KW won't be in any position to make any decisions as hopefully he will be canned.

[WCSox]

Hopefully KW won't be in any position to make any decisions as hopefully he will be canned.

 

Yeah, we wouldn't want KW acquiring any more veterans for bargain prices and using them to win more championships.

[fathom]

Why are people so quick to dismiss that Ozzie is failing to motivate these players?

[Gregory Pratt]

Iguchi's finger is hurt.

Konerko's hip is bad, and he's a headcase. I think he might just have some physical issues right now but as can be seen from 2003 he's prone to going cold.

Dye may or may not be in good health, but I doubt Ozzie has to do with him not being motivated as it's his contract year and if he needs Ozzie to "motivate him" then he's an idiot.

Crede's back is all sorts of f***ed up.

Uribe's become a worse hitter over the years.

Pierzynski's getting older, has caught a lot of games over the years, and has been changing his offensive approach over the years. I don't know if he's always been as lazy to first, but I wouldn't blame Ozzie for anything with him.

 

I don't know. There are our biggest problems. Our bullpen can hardly throw strikes or heat. Few of them are, I think, motivational. Motivation can only take you too far and when you can't hit the Chad Durbins of the world, there's something seriously wrong.

[fathom]

It's real simple....if players are injured to the point that they're playing at 60 pct, then put them on the DL. Iguchi should have been on the DL already this year, and I have no clue why Cintron isn't on the DL either. If these players aren't communicating with Ozzie that they're injured, then we have a problem there also.