Joe Crede to 15 day DL, Josh Fields called up from AAA.

[Dick Allen]

If Crede has the surgery now, I wonder what he'll think of Boras for making sure he didn't do it last winter.

[southsider2k5]

*Sigh*

 

This was worst case scenario, and of course it happened.

 

If you ask me, I really think Kenny did try to deal Joe to NYY in a Buehrle/Garcia and Crede for Arod deal. I think he also talked to Anaheim about trading Joe over there for Figgins and a pitcher, because there was too much smoke there for it to be nothing as well. I think Anaheim backed out because of their apprehension over Crede's back after dealing with McPhearson's problems. The whole world knew about Joe's back, so I doubt anyone was busting down the door to take a chance on a guy who is getting really close to free agency, has Borass as an agent, has a bad back, and refused to have surgery. How many teams do you think would have actually paid up for that?

[caulfield12]

*Sigh*

 

This was worst case scenario, and of course it happened.

 

If you ask me, I really think Kenny did try to deal Joe to NYY in a Buehrle/Garcia and Crede for Arod deal. I think he also talked to Anaheim about trading Joe over there for Figgins and a pitcher, because there was too much smoke there for it to be nothing as well. I think Anaheim backed out because of their apprehension over Crede's back after dealing with McPhearson's problems. The whole world knew about Joe's back, so I doubt anyone was busting down the door to take a chance on a guy who is getting really close to free agency, has Borass as an agent, has a bad back, and refused to have surgery. How many teams do you think would have actually paid up for that?

 

With the Sirotka/Wells trade in not-too-distant memory, I think that most clubs would have disqualified the trade based on MRI's and potential problems with his back. There would certainly be a grievance if something like this happened with KW trading "damaged goods" twice in seven year span.

 

Clubs that acquired him would have the same hesitation that KW was obviously having, and trading for a player you would only have for 1-2 seasons wouldn't make sense to many clubs.

[RME JICO]

Now that this injury keeps popping up, there was a good chance that KW couldn't move Crede this offseason anyway.

 

The whole surgery/no surgery thing was very similar to the Bulls and Curry. However, other baseball teams must've felt the risk was too high in Crede's case.

 

Crede's best bet at this point is to have the surgery and become a bench player/defensive replacement. That is probably all his back will be able to handle.

[HawkFan81]

I wish Crede all the best. I hope he gets surgery and then has a nice start to '08 so we can get something for him (unless getting cut would keep him out longer?)

 

Crede's best bet at this point is to have the surgery and become a bench player/defensive replacement. That is probably all his back will be able to handle.

 

Well, he could always wind up DHing for someone else.

[Steff]

If Crede has the surgery now, I wonder what he'll think of Boras for making sure he didn't do it last winter.

 

 

Even further, what he'll think of him for not trying to get a secured financial deal before it became this big of an issue.

[RibbieRubarb]

Even further, what he'll think of him for not trying to get a secured financial deal before it became this big of an issue.

 

You live by the sword...you die by the sword.

 

Boras' model program has been waiting for the big payday via free agency. This one has bit him and his client bad.

[southsider2k5]

You live by the sword...you die by the sword.

 

Boras' model program has been waiting for the big payday via free agency. This one has bit him and his client bad.

 

Ask Juan Gonzalez how that worked out for him...

[Rowand44]

OK, I want to see where Greg Walker has ever publicly preached to pull the ball and try to hit home runs.

He hasn't and I guarantee he doesn't preach that. I've said a lot that I believe no matter if he's gone or he stays we'll be going through the same crap next season but I honestly don't think it can hurt right now to make a change there. Sometimes a shake up like that could wake the team up a bit.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 06:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, I want to see where Greg Walker has ever publicly preached to pull the ball and try to hit home runs.

 

He doesn't as you correctly surmise. He did say this lineup has lots of HR hitters and that is their swing. Actually from having heard Walker comment many many times on the back fields in late Feb. and early March in Tucson, he preaches go up the middle, stay on the pitch, head down on the ball, have good at bats, etc. Basically all the stuff hitting coaches say, all the way from Little League to Tom Emanski to Rudy the Great in Texas to whomever.

 

There is a possibility the hitters have tuned him out, that is always possible. There are certain dum dums he will never get through to like Uribe as Uribe gets frustrated easily and starts hacking like a wild man. Some of these players are just not that good. Some had career years and fans got excited. I doubt Dye ever again hits like he did last year. Crede will show these same problems until he gets the back fixed. Konerko needs to relax and thats the same story for how many years now. Thome is Thome and you get what you get. Iguchi is caught in between on everything and I think the contract thing is bugging him.

 

I do think Walker has failed with Pierzynski somewhat but try dealing with Pierzynski one on one. They gave Brian Anderson more freedom with his swing than he earned and that was a mistake too as they should have rebuilt him in the minors.

 

Either way a lot of this is simply excuses and they are not getting the job done.

 

Lets get an interview with one of the org. instructional guys as it appears many on this site have connections. Sox personnel are very approachable, lets find out what a hitting coach does. What do you do every day, how does it work. Lets let people learn here, not that this is Baseball for Dummies but it would be interesting. Certainly better than the daily spleen venting.

 

Who has a connection? Anyone?

 

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He hasn't and I guarantee he doesn't preach that. I've said a lot that I believe no matter if he's gone or he stays we'll be going through the same crap next season but I honestly don't think it can hurt right now to make a change there. Sometimes a shake up like that could wake the team up a bit.

 

Yes a shakeup is in order, at whatever level. Swapping out Aardsma and MacDougal for Bukvich and Prinz is not what I had in mind. I would have done the Dye Abreu thing but what do I know. I like those guys with a great eye who get on base a lot. We don't have guys like that. Look at what this kid Gaithright did in KC last night. He disrupted the whole game. That is a kid they told to go to Omaha with the idea of what your job is, it is to get on base and be a pain the rear. Not that a Gaithright is the be all end all but he is energy and wow do the Sox need that.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

The sooner that he has surgery, the better it will be for everyone- the Sox, Crede and BORASS.

 

This is what the Sox tried to explain to him at the end of last season but Crede wouldn't listen.

[WCSox]

Hence why I feel sick to my stomach. Last year should have been his last with the White Sox, the writing was on the wall with him there was no way he was going to make it through the 2007 campaign without his back taking him out for a few months.

 

I'm not sure about that. These back problems have been going on for two full years now and they haven't exactly killed his production (up until now, of course).

 

With 20/20 hindsight, sure, Kenny should've dealt him. But this is something that Joe's been dealing with for a while and he's still produced. If you're really trying to make a run this year, do you deal a guy who put up an MVP-caliber performance in the '05 postseason, a career year at the plate last season, and is one of the top defensive 3Bs in the league? I'm not sure I do, especially since he's a minimal financial risk.

 

Instead of being pissed off at KW, I just feel sorry for Joe. These back problems just may end his career. I want to see him play for several more years, even if it's in a different uniform.

[RME JICO]

The article also says he has 2 herniated discs, and I thought I read before that they were degenerative discs. Multiple discs and degeneration is a horrible combination.

 

I believe he will do the disc drainage, rehab and try to come back later this year so salvage an attempt at one last contract. Regardless, once he does this, it will be only a matter of time before the next procedure is needed and time on the DL. So it seems like Crede's time with the Sox is over.

[SoxFanForever]

and your point is...?

You said it seems like he has been in our system for 5 years and asked if anyone knew. He has been for 3 years. That is my "point".

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 7, 2007 -> 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The whole world knew about Joe's back, so I doubt anyone was busting down the door to take a chance on a guy who is getting really close to free agency, has Borass as an agent, has a bad back, and refused to have surgery. How many teams do you think would have actually paid up for that?

 

Excellent point. The answer to your question is prob. "not many". If any.

[Balta1701]

Let me just add...

 

Joe Crede was an idiot for not having the surgery last offseason. Was it a risk for him? Yes. But either way, he'd still have his contract for $5 mil for this season even if things went poorly. He should have rehabbed it the entire offseason, and hopefully come out some time early this season ready to play. If healthy, he might have still had a chance to put up good numbers and actually make himself attractive as a FA or as trade-bait.

 

Joe Crede will be even more of an idiot if he does not have the surgery now. If he has the surgery now, he still at least can come back next season and hopefully play 1 season completely healthy, and thus give himself a chance at that FA contract. This screws over the White Sox unless he comes out on fire early next season, because the Sox won't be able to trade him for anything this offseason because he's coming off back surgery, but at least it gives him a shot of salvaging his career.

 

And Joe Crede is an even bigger idiot if he ever takes the advice of Scott Boras's folk about health issues again.

 

Excellent point. The answer to your question is prob. "not many". If any.

Given the #'s Joe put up last season with a back that had already flared up in 05, there were probably more than a few teams that would take a flyer on him. But unfortunately, it would probably have depressed his value a lot. Hell, for all we know Crede's back could have been the only thing standing between the Crede/Garcia for Figgins/Santana swap that was rumored.

[RME JICO]

Let me just add...

 

Joe Crede was an idiot for not having the surgery last offseason. Was it a risk for him? Yes. But either way, he'd still have his contract for $5 mil for this season even if things went poorly. He should have rehabbed it the entire offseason, and hopefully come out some time early this season ready to play. If healthy, he might have still had a chance to put up good numbers and actually make himself attractive as a FA or as trade-bait.

 

Joe Crede will be even more of an idiot if he does not have the surgery now. If he has the surgery now, he still at least can come back next season and hopefully play 1 season completely healthy, and thus give himself a chance at that FA contract. This screws over the White Sox unless he comes out on fire early next season, because the Sox won't be able to trade him for anything this offseason because he's coming off back surgery, but at least it gives him a shot of salvaging his career.

 

And Joe Crede is an even bigger idiot if he ever takes the advice of Scott Boras's folk about health issues again.

I don't think he was an idiot for not having surgery. That is a huge decision that will affect his entire life, and normally you start with the least evasive way - surgery is the last option, which it seems we are now at. The doctors gave him the options and if they felt that there was no way he would get better, they would've recommended surgery as the only option.

 

Now I agree about Boras. If he was involved in any health decisions, Crede is an idiot.

[thedoctor]

well, at least we'll always have the rally crede.

[RME JICO]

well, at least we'll always have the rally crede.

What is your prognosis thedoctor?

[santo=dorf]

What are the odds that the Sox non-tender him before the 2008 season?

 

I guess it really depends on Fields' performance.

[Chisoxfn]

The reality is his condition continues to get worse and its my assumption that the best thing to do is correct the problem and hope with proper rehab following the surgery he will be back.

 

This obviously means the Sox get nothing for Joe at the moment, but the best plan is to get him to 100% and show case him next year for another team (if early on he shows he is healthy I still think he has value). Plus, this gives the Sox an extended period to see what they have in Fields (worse case...if Fields produces and Crede is 100% early on in the season, the Sox could opt to use Fields in LF until Crede is eventually moved).

[Balta1701]

I don't think he was an idiot for not having surgery. That is a huge decision that will affect his entire life, and normally you start with the least evasive way - surgery is the last option, which it seems we are now at. The doctors gave him the options and if they felt that there was no way he would get better, they would've recommended surgery as the only option.

I still think you are wrong. I thought Joe was wrong for not having the surgery last fall, for both the team and his career, I said so at the time, and I've been proven right. I will dispute you on one issue; surgery is not always the last option; it's the last option if you're about to die and you have no other choice. Joe had a finite probability of a disaster with either of the 2 options: surgery or rehab. The team reccommended surgery, and at least the first doctor the team sent him to reccommended surgery. I believe it was the 2nd doctor, reccommended by his agent, who suggested the rehab option.

 

To my eyes, yes, surgery was riskier without taking anything else into account, but when you take into account the fact that he was 2 years away from FA at the time, and the fact that he'd already tried to rehab his back from 05-06 and it wound up really hurting him again at the end of 06, and combine that with the suggestion from the team doctors, then I think the calculation winds up favoring the surgery as the best option, and again, I think I've been proven correct.

[Kalapse]

With 20/20 hindsight, sure, Kenny should've dealt him.

Perhaps it's hindsight to you but it's not to me. I was hoping for a trade all offseason, his back was a ticking time bomb and his stock was never going to be higher than it was coming off his career year in '06.

 

But this is something that Joe's been dealing with for a while and he's still produced. If you're really trying to make a run this year, do you deal a guy who put up an MVP-caliber performance in the '05 postseason, a career year at the plate last season, and is one of the top defensive 3Bs in the league?

Yes, yes I do. His offensive production has been mediocre for the majority of his career and even when he has a career year he can't even muster 30 walks. If I'm evaluating him for the future I'm looking at his health concerns and patterns in his offensive production and everything pointed towards a disappointing season in '07 which is something the Sox could not afford to get from him considering his pending free agency after the '08 season. His long loopy swings, his propensity for popping the ball up, the fact that he's one of the slowest players on a team full of old, slow guys, his inability to draw a walk, his inconsistency at the plate from month to month, the insane back problems that have physically crippled him time and time again at the ripe old age of 29, the fact that the Sox' #2 prospect just happens to play 3B and his looming free agency with Boras at the helm are just some of the reasons why I hoped 2006 was his final season with the White Sox.

 

I've been comparing him to Ed Sprague for a while now and it looks like he's headed in the exact same direction Sprague was after he had his career year at age 28. KW should have done his damndest to deal him away for what ever package he could get when Crede disregarded the advise of his employer and sided with his agent instead (I'm not blaming him for siding with Boras, that's his decision to make it's just obvious that the Sox were not comfortable with him simply rehabbing the injury) and I said as much when it happened.

[thedoctor]

What is your prognosis thedoctor?

 

given our recent stretch of luck, i'd have to think the worst possible scenario for the white sox is what will happen.

 

however, i must say that i'm not a real doctor, i just play one on internet message boards.

[WCSox]

Perhaps it's hindsight to you but it's not to me. I was hoping for a trade all offseason, his back was a ticking time bomb and his stock was never going to be higher than it was coming off his career year in '06.

Yes, yes I do. His offensive production has been mediocre for the majority of his career and even when he has a career year he can't even muster 30 walks. If I'm evaluating him for the future I'm looking at his health concerns and patterns in his offensive production and everything pointed towards a disappointing season in '07 which is something the Sox could not afford to get from him considering his pending free agency after the '08 season. His long loopy swings, his propensity for popping the ball up, the fact that he's one of the slowest players on a team full of old, slow guys, his inability to draw a walk, his inconsistency at the plate from month to month, the insane back problems that have physically crippled him time and time again at the ripe old age of 29, the fact that the Sox' #2 prospect just happens to play 3B and his looming free agency with Boras at the helm are just some of the reasons why I hoped 2006 was his final season with the White Sox.

 

I've been comparing him to Ed Sprague for a while now and it looks like he's headed in the exact same direction Sprague was after he had his career year at age 28. KW should have done his damndest to deal him away for what ever package he could get when Crede disregarded the advise of his employer and sided with his agent instead (I'm not blaming him for siding with Boras, that's his decision to make it's just obvious that the Sox were not comfortable with him simply rehabbing the injury) and I said as much when it happened.

 

Did you ever consider that KW may have tried to deal Crede last year, but talk of possible back surgery and the prospect of having to deal with Boras when negotiating a long-term deal killed his trade value? If you were a GM and had access to, at the very minimum, the same material that we do, would YOU have traded anything of value for Crede? I don't think that I would've. And even before the talk of back surgery, it's not like the Yankees, Red Sox, A's, Tigers, Cardinals, or Mets were in need of a 3rd baseman down the stretch last season.

 

I'm not saying that KW is golden or anything, but I probably would've done the same thing if I had been in his position. In my mind, this was the Sox's last year to make a run at another championship before re-tooling their roster. If Crede is only making about $5 million and is only under contract for one more year, I roll the dice. Even in a worst-case scenario, I save $5 million the next year and still have Fields.

Edited June 7, 2007 by WCSox