And That's A White Sox Loser

[fathom]

Well I happen to disagree about Anderson as well. This team was plenty loaded last year to absorb whatever negative impact Brian brought on by his struggling at the plate. I am a firm believer that he neutralized his weak offense by his spectacular defense. The pitching stafff, the offense in the second half, alot of things let this franchise down last year. It wasn't about one trade. It was about our division getting ridiculously strong, and out pitching letting us down. But it's too damn late to continue crying over spilt milk.

 

I also thought that Anderson should have kept playing in CF last year and been given the chance to start the year out there as well. But he never went out and MADE Ozzie put him in CF last season with his production. When we traded Rowand and Young, we left our franchise with only one possible CF.....and he's underachieved.

[iamshack]

I also thought that Anderson should have kept playing in CF last year and been given the chance to start the year out there as well. But he never went out and MADE Ozzie put him in CF last season with his production. When we traded Rowand and Young, we left our franchise with only one possible CF.....and he's underachieved.

 

No doubt, no doubt.

 

But had we made a run deep into the playoffs last year, would people continue to be moaning about that trade? Or would it have been worth it then?

 

We won 90 games. So many things are outside of Kenny's control. The damn Cardinals won 83 games and won the World Series. Isn't it obvious how speculative his job is?

[Balta1701]

But had we made a run deep into the playoffs last year, would people continue to be moaning about that trade? Or would it have been worth it then?

 

We won 90 games. So many things are outside of Kenny's control. The damn Cardinals won 83 games and won the World Series. Isn't it obvious how speculative his job is?

I will still go to my grave saying that the 06 white sox make the playoffs if Rob Mackowiak never, ever starts a game in CF after July 1st last year. The numbers don't back me up well, but thats' what my eyes told me about that team.

[iamshack]

I will still go to my grave saying that the 06 white sox make the playoffs if Rob Mackowiak never, ever starts a game in CF after July 1st last year. The numbers don't back me up well, but thats' what my eyes told me about that team.

 

I don't know either, but I know we would have had a better shot. I still believe we would have a better shot currently if Brian were starting in center field as he should have following ST. That is one area where I wish Kenny would have put his foot down and overruled Ozzie.

[WCSox]

I don't care how long Chris Young's homer was last night. I'll take Javy for the the 5 years we'll end up having him over a Mike Cameron clone every day and twice on half-price Mondays.

 

I have to agree. Javy may be over-hyped and mediocre but, last night notwithstanding, he's a decent #4 pitcher and is making about market value for a veteran with his resume. The D-backs can have Young. I'll take the durable, decent starting pitcher and Owens/Terrero in CF.

 

The venom spewed for certain players on here is so ridiculously immature and pathetic. Some of you are so bitter and irritable that you add nothing other than sheer negativity and arrogance. Thanks for all that adds to this forum.

 

How dare you insult the integrity of Soxtalk!

[fathom]

No doubt, no doubt.

 

But had we made a run deep into the playoffs last year, would people continue to be moaning about that trade? Or would it have been worth it then?

 

We won 90 games. So many things are outside of Kenny's control. The damn Cardinals won 83 games and won the World Series. Isn't it obvious how speculative his job is?

 

No, it would have been a fine trade then, as KW was clearly making that trade to try and repeat. The problem was that Vazquez was a big part of the problem, especially for the first 80 pct of the season.

[Kalapse]

"I feel like I'm watching 9 dead people walking." - Ozzie Guillen

Isn't Guillen's #1 asset as a manager player motivation?

[iamshack]

No, it would have been a fine trade then, as KW was clearly making that trade to try and repeat. The problem was that Vazquez was a big part of the problem, especially for the first 80 pct of the season.

 

I tend to think Mark and Jose were the biggest let downs in the second half. They were two guys we heavily counted on, and perhaps Javy was brought in because of the possibility that Jose would break down. Javy certainly could have stepped up and helped us out in July and August when Jose and Mark were time bombs. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way.

 

Nonetheless, you can't blame KW for making the trade at the time he made it. And holding it against Javy for the rest of his White Sox career because he was 1 of 4 guys who weren't getting the job done when we needed them doesn't seem quite fair to me either.

 

Isn't Guillen's #1 asset as a manager player motivation?

 

Which is probably what led him to react that way. He probably has tried damn near everything and is running out of answers. There comes a point when nothing else can be done.

[Kalapse]

Which is probably what led him to react that way. He probably has tried damn near everything and is running out of answers. There comes a point when nothing else can be done.

Then it's probably time to just gut this team and start over, once it reaches the point where the Manager is having no effect on the team's play at all it's probably for the best to just start over from scratch.

[Dick Allen]

Nonetheless, you can't blame KW for making the trade at the time he made it. And holding it against Javy for the rest of his White Sox career because he was 1 of 4 guys who weren't getting the job done when we needed them doesn't seem quite fair to me either.

Which is probably what led him to react that way. He probably has tried damn near everything and is running out of answers. There comes a point when nothing else can be done.

Why can't you fault him? Because you say so? He also gave up El Duque and Vizcaino and relied on Politte and Cotts and an injured Hermanson to repeat their 2005 performances. It was a dumb trade. Now 2 years before he loses control of Vazquez he signs him to an extension. This isn't some 25 year old kid that just needs a couple of breaks and he'll find himself. He's hopelessly around .500 just about every season.

[iamshack]

Why can't you fault him? Because you say so? He also gave up El Duque and Vizcaino and relied on Politte and Cotts and an injured Hermanson to repeat their 2005 performances. It was a dumb trade. Now 2 years before he loses control of Vazquez he signs him to an extension. This isn't some 25 year old kid that just needs a couple of breaks and he'll find himself. He's hopelessly around .500 just about every season.

 

You can't fault him because you are using everything that's happened in hindsight as evidence of why it shouldn't have been done. I try to look at what evidence was available at the time the trade was made as evidence of whether it should have been done or not.

 

I want a good GM, which Kenny is.

 

You want a fortune teller. Good luck.

 

The team didn't win last year because of the starting pitching. The starting pitching Kenny went out and fortified prior to the season. What the hell do you want? At some point, it comes down to the damn players not performing.

[fathom]

Then it's probably time to just gut this team and start over, once it reaches the point where the Manager is having no effect on the team's play at all it's probably for the best to just start over from scratch.

 

At least he made the Yahoo.com front page again for something he said.

[iamshack]

Then it's probably time to just gut this team and start over, once it reaches the point where the Manager is having no effect on the team's play at all it's probably for the best to just start over from scratch.

 

If the team continues to play this way until mid-July, then I'm all for making some major changes.

 

Firing Ozzie or Kenny is not one of them.

[Dick Allen]

You can't fault him because you are using everything that's happened in hindsight as evidence of why it shouldn't have been done. I try to look at what evidence was available at the time the trade was made as evidence of whether it should have been done or not.

 

I want a good GM, which Kenny is.

 

You want a fortune teller. Good luck.

 

The team didn't win last year because of the starting pitching. The starting pitching Kenny went out and fortified prior to the season. What the hell do you want? At some point, it comes down to the damn players not performing.

It takes a fortune teller to conclude Vazquez is hopelessly mediocre? See his 2004 and 2005 seasons and get back to me. Then his 2006 season which the team wins 90 games, he has the lead in all but 3 or 4 starts and doesn't finish .500. He is not very good. He strikes out a lot of guys, but he's not very good. Giving him an extension just compounds the mistake.

[Big Hurtin]

Isn't Guillen's #1 asset as a manager player motivation?

 

Only when they're playing well

[iamshack]

It takes a fortune teller to conclude Vazquez is hopelessly mediocre? See his 2004 and 2005 seasons and get back to me. Then his 2006 season which the team wins 90 games, he has the lead in all but 3 or 4 starts and doesn't finish .500. He is not very good. He strikes out a lot of guys, but he's not very good. Giving him an extension just compounds the mistake.

 

So if Buerhle and Jose would have pitched anywhere near the way they did the prior season, Javy couldn't have been some help to us? Especially the way he was pitching down the stretch?

[Dick Allen]

So if Buerhle and Jose would have pitched anywhere near the way they did the prior season, Javy couldn't have been some help to us? Especially the way he was pitching down the stretch?

He wasn't even .500. I also doubt it was a coincidence he picked it up as soon as the White Sox postseason chances went to approximately 0.

[iamshack]

He wasn't even .500. I also doubt it was a coincidence he picked it up as soon as the White Sox postseason chances went to approximately 0.

 

You're starting to sound exactly like the woman in your avatar.

[fathom]

He wasn't even .500. I also doubt it was a coincidence he picked it up as soon as the White Sox postseason chances went to approximately 0.

 

With the way this team was hitting during the first half of the year, the Sox could have been 10 games up on the WC at the ASB if Vazquez was pitching better. Don't forget Vazquez's knack for being a momentum killer. There were quite a few times where we had a nice winning streak going, and he went out and s*** the bed.

[iamshack]

With the way this team was hitting during the first half of the year, the Sox could have been 10 games up on the WC at the ASB if Vazquez was pitching better. Don't forget Vazquez's knack for being a momentum killer. There were quite a few times where we had a nice winning streak going, and he went out and s*** the bed.

 

Once again, that didn't make it a bad trade to make at the time it was made.

[fathom]

Once again, that didn't make it a bad trade to make at the time it was made.

 

I think what DA and myself are saying is that Vazquez just isn't that good of a pitcher, especially for how much money he makes. There were quite a few of us that hated the trade when it would made, especially due to Young's huge potential and not seeing what McCarthy could do as a starter.

[Dick Allen]

Once again, that didn't make it a bad trade to make at the time it was made.

Considering how bad Vazquez was the second half of 2004 with the Yankees, considering how mediocre his 2005 season was, considering how he gave up a lot of homers and would be coming into a bandbox, considering Ozzie had to talk him into pitching in the AL, (he originally didn't want to be traded to the Sox because he wanted to stay in the NL), considering the talent going to Arizona, and considering Vazquez's contract, there are several reasons for someone to believe it was a bad trade at the time it was made.

[iamshack]

I think what DA and myself are saying is that Vazquez just isn't that good of a pitcher, especially for how much money he makes. There were quite a few of us that hated the trade when it would made, especially due to Young's huge potential and not seeing what McCarthy could do as a starter.

 

I am aware of that. Personally, I thought it was a good gamble at the time. I just think it's ridiculously easy to complain about things now that it hasn't worked out the way it was envisioned to. Needless to say, one can't say it couldn't have ever worked out. As I said earlier, the Cardinals won 83 games and won the World Series. Few thought the Tigers would emerge as they did. Had they not, we probably make the postseason.

 

Anyways, I don't want to argue about the trade anymore. And I certainly don't want to hear about Chris Young until the end of eternity either. It's over. There is nothing that can be done.

[elrockinMT]

Three call ups for the pitching staff and none have been very successful. However, the two called up after Day have major league experience so we aren't dealing with true rookies. Offense doesn't do anything but offend and our pitching hasn't come through at all lately. Other than Garland's great effort in wiining Monday and Buerhle 2 hit-2 homer loss last week we ain't got nothing to be real happy about.

[WCSox]

I think what DA and myself are saying is that Vazquez just isn't that good of a pitcher, especially for how much money he makes.

 

Ted Lilly and Gil Meche aren't very good either, yet make approximately the same salary. The reality is that decent veteran pitching costs an arm and a leg now. But with Mark on his way out and Contreras declining and entering the twilight of his career, the Sox were desperate for a healthy middle/back-of-the-rotation starter.

 

If McCarthy wasn't good enough to crack our rotation last summer or even stay on our squad, I can't imagine how dismal the rest of our minor league starters are. No wonder Kenny signed Javy to an extension.