Sicko

[kapkomet]

Way too easy...

Who asked you? Fairweather fan.

 

[Steff]

Who asked you? Fairweather fan.

 

 

 

Excuse you.. it's lemming about to jump off a cliff thank you very much.

[kapkomet]

A lemming is a good description of you, if I do say so myself.

 

/back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Brian]

Interesting movie. I never knew so many countries had free universal health care paid for by the government.

Lots of sad stories about people being denied.

[BigSqwert]

Interesting movie. I never knew so many countries had free universal health care paid for by the government.

Lots of sad stories about people being denied.

I look forward to checking out the film. Perhaps tomorrow evening.

[Brian]

Moore is on Larry King now if anyone is interested.

[NorthSideSox72]

Interesting movie. I never knew so many countries had free universal health care paid for by the government.

Lots of sad stories about people being denied.

Note: there is no such thing as free health care. It still costs the citizens money, just not as directly.

[Steff]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/2...eck/index.html#

 

(CNN) -- Michael Moore's "Sicko," which opened nationwide Friday, is filled with horror stories of people who are deprived of medical service because they can't afford it or haven't been able to navigate the murky waters of managed care in the United States.

art.sicko.family.jpg

 

A couple featured in Michael Moore's "Sicko" leave a London hospital with their newborn.

 

It compares American health care with the universal coverage systems in Canada, France, the United Kingdom and Cuba.

 

Moore covers a lot of ground. Our team investigated some of the claims put forth in his film. We found that his numbers were mostly right, but his arguments could use a little more context. As we dug deep to uncover the numbers, we found surprisingly few inaccuracies in the film. In fact, most pundits or health-care experts we spoke to spent more time on errors of omission rather than disputing the actual claims in the film.

 

Whether it's dollars spent, group coverage or Medicaid income cutoffs, health care goes hand in hand with numbers. Moore opens his film by giving these statistics, "Fifty million uninsured Americans ... 18,000 people die because they are uninsured."

 

For the most part, that's true. The latest numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say 43.6 million, or about 15 percent of Americans, were uninsured in 2006. For the past five years, the overall count has fluctuated between 41 million and 44 million people. According to the Institute of Medicine, 18,000 people do die each year mainly because they are less likely to receive screening and preventive care for chronic diseases.

 

Moore says that the U.S. spends more of its gross domestic product on health care than any other country.

 

Again, that's true. The United States spends more than 15 percent of its GDP on health care -- no other nation even comes close to that number. France spends about 11 percent, and Canadians spend 10 percent.

 

Like Moore, we also found that more money does not equal better care. Both the French and Canadian systems rank in the Top 10 of the world's best health-care systems, according to the World Health Organization. The United States comes in at No. 37. The rankings are based on general health of the population, access, patient satisfaction and how the care's paid for.

 

So, if Americans are paying so much and they're not getting as good or as much care, where is all the money going? "Overhead for most private health insurance plans range between 10 percent to 30 percent," says Deloitte health-care analyst Paul Keckley. Overhead includes profit and administrative costs.

 

"Compare that to Medicare, which only has an overhead rate of 1 percent. Medicare is an extremely efficient health-care delivery system," says Mark Meaney, a health-care ethicist for the National Institute for Patient Rights.

 

Moore spends about half his film detailing the wonders and the benefits of the government-funded universal health-care systems in Canada, France, Cuba and the United Kingdom. He shows calm, content people in waiting rooms and people getting care in hospitals hassle free. People laugh and smile as he asks about billing departments and cost of stay.

 

Not surprisingly, it's not that simple. In most other countries, there are quotas and planned waiting times. Everyone does have access to basic levels of care. That care plan is formulated by teams of government physicians and officials who determine what's to be included in the universal basic coverage and how a specific condition is treated. If you want treatment outside of that standard plan, then you have to pay for it yourself.

 

"In most developed health systems in the world, 15 percent to 20 percent of the population buys medical services outside of the system of care run by the government. They do it through supplemental insurance, or they buy services out of pocket," Keckley says.

 

The people who pay more tend to be in the upper income or have special, more complicated conditions.

 

Moore focuses on the private insurance companies and makes no mention of the U.S. government-funded health-care systems such as Medicare, Medicaid, the State Children's Health Insurance Program and the Veterans Affairs health-care systems. About 50 percent of all health-care dollars spent in the United States flows through these government systems.

 

"Sicko" also ignores a handful of good things about the American system. Believe it or not, the United States does rank highest in the patient satisfaction category. Americans do have shorter wait times than everyone but Germans when it comes to nonemergency elective surgery such as hip replacements, cataract removal or knee repair.

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That's no surprise given the number of U.S. specialists. In U.S. medical schools, students training to become primary-care physicians have dwindled to 10 percent. The overwhelming majority choose far more profitable specialties in the medical field. In other countries, more than one out of three aspiring doctors chooses primary care in part because there's less of an income gap with specialists. In those nations, becoming a specialist means making 30 percent more than a primary-care physician. In the United States, the gap is around 300 percent, according to Keckley.

 

As Americans continue to spend $2 trillion a year on health care, everyone agrees on one point: Things need to change, and it will take more than a movie to figure out how to get there

[EvilMonkey]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/2...eck/index.html#

 

("Compare that to Medicare, which only has an overhead rate of 1 percent. Medicare is an extremely efficient health-care delivery system," says Mark Meaney, a health-care ethicist for the National Institute for Patient Rights.

I find that damn near impossible that ANY government agency can run that efficiently. Maybe we should hire away the geniuses running Medicare to balance the budget?

[NorthSideSox72]

I find that damn near impossible that ANY government agency can run that efficiently. Maybe we should hire away the geniuses running Medicare to balance the budget?

The term "overhead" could be stretched into any number of definitions.

[BigSqwert]

Saw Sicko over the weekend. Highly recommended.

[BigSqwert]

This was a good read: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19886686/site/newsweek/page/0/

[EvilMonkey]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070812/wl_can..._cuba_widow_col

 

Rich Canadian widow cash-strapped in Cuba By Anthony Boadle

Sun Aug 12, 7:42 PM ET

 

HAVANA (Reuters) - Canadian Mary McCarthy lives in the same mansion she and her millionaire husband moved into 62 years ago in the once-posh Country Club area of Havana.

 

Peacocks still strut the one-acre garden under royal palm trees, but the lawn is overgrown and the house filled with Napoleon III furniture, chandeliers and a Steinway grand piano is falling apart.

 

At the age of 107, McCarthy is wheelchair-bound, but still dresses up for visitors in a satin dress, silk blouse and chiffon scarf, red lipstick coloring her wrinkled face. Her pearl necklace and earrings, though, are plastic.

 

Her real jewelry and the small fortune she inherited when she was widowed in 1951 have been frozen in a Boston bank since the United States placed Cuba under sanctions after Fidel Castro's leftist revolution in 1959.

 

That's because she lived in Cuba and did not leave with most of her wealthy Cuban neighbors who fled to Miami when Castro nationalized businesses and steered the Caribbean nation toward Soviet communism.

 

The Cuban government confiscated her properties and her husband's leather factory, assets valued at $4 million, and she was left only with "Villa Mary," a dilapidated mansion in need of repairs where she lives in virtual poverty.

 

Since January this year the U.S. government has let her withdraw a $96 a month allowance from her U.S. bank after Canadian diplomats interceded on her behalf.

 

McCarthy is asking U.S. President George W. Bush to free her money so that she can live her remaining days with dignity. She would also like to have her family's "trinkets" released.

 

"They said they couldn't give it to me because I live in Cuba. That's the only money that I have left. It is in Boston, but I live in Cuba, that's the great terrible, terrible thing," she said during a recent visit to her home.

 

"The only thing I want it for is medicines and my doctor. I don't even want to buy candy out of it," she said.

 

Framed congratulations from Pope John Paul, Queen Elizabeth and former Canadian prime minister Jean Chretien on her 100th birthday hang on walls in need of a coat of paint.

 

Pictures on a sitting room table include Castro in his trademark green military fatigues greeting a lively McCarthy during an embassy reception for Chretien when he visited in 1997.

 

HAVANA HIGH SOCIETY

 

McCarthy, who was born in St. John's, Newfoundland in 1900, met Spanish-born businessman Pedro Gomez Cueto at the opera in Boston. He swept the 24-year-old music student off her feet and down to Havana, a city booming on the wealth of sugar barons and a playground for the rich.

 

Gomez Cueto made his fortune manufacturing boots for soldiers at his Havana heel factory during World War II. As a member of Cuba's high society, McCarthy co-founded the Havana Philharmonic Orchestra, played golf at the Country Club, funded charities and danced at lavish parties at the Havana Yacht Club that she can barely remember today.

 

After Castro and his guerrillas took power in 1959, the Canadian widow visited her wealthy friends in their Miami exile. She found them in temporary lodgings waiting to return to Havana as soon as the United States ousted Castro.

 

McCarthy decided to go home and wait it out. Four decades later, Castro's government is still in power, though the ailing Cuban leader has not appeared in public for a whole year, and Mary McCarthy is as cash-strapped as Cuba's state-run economy.

 

"I stayed in Cuba because my husband was dead and I inherited the property," said McCarthy, who has no family that she knows of left in Canada. "Besides, I like Cubans. They are the best people in the world."

 

Last year Stan Keyes, the Canadian consul general in Boston at the time, wrote to the U.S. Treasury office that enforces sanctions against Cuba, to request the transfer of her funds to Canada.

 

"She is an unfortunate, albeit unintentional, victim of political circumstances," Keyes wrote. "She relies on charity. She deserves to live the rest of her days in comfort."

 

Responding to U.S. officials who suggested McCarthy leave Cuba and return to Canada, Keyes said she was no longer able to withstand a harsh Canadian winter.

 

McCarthy has been confined to a wheelchair since she fell and broke her hip in 2002.

 

A devout Catholic, she prays after tea every day. Her godson Elio Garcia wheels her to a darkened lobby where, under the gaze of a marble statue of Salome, she prays with a rosary to Cuba's spiritual patron, the Virgin of Charity.

 

McCarthy figures in the last edition of the Anglo-American directory of Cuba in 1960. Her address is still the same.

I thought her healthcare was taken care of by the Cuban government. But yet she wants her money just so she can get medicine and pay her doctor. Hmmmm.

 

[EvilMonkey]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070812/wl_can..._cuba_widow_col

 

Rich Canadian widow cash-strapped in Cuba By Anthony Boadle

Sun Aug 12, 7:42 PM ET

 

HAVANA (Reuters) - Canadian Mary McCarthy lives in the same mansion she and her millionaire husband moved into 62 years ago in the once-posh Country Club area of Havana.

 

Peacocks still strut the one-acre garden under royal palm trees, but the lawn is overgrown and the house filled with Napoleon III furniture, chandeliers and a Steinway grand piano is falling apart.

 

At the age of 107, McCarthy is wheelchair-bound, but still dresses up for visitors in a satin dress, silk blouse and chiffon scarf, red lipstick coloring her wrinkled face. Her pearl necklace and earrings, though, are plastic.

 

Her real jewelry and the small fortune she inherited when she was widowed in 1951 have been frozen in a Boston bank since the United States placed Cuba under sanctions after Fidel Castro's leftist revolution in 1959.

 

That's because she lived in Cuba and did not leave with most of her wealthy Cuban neighbors who fled to Miami when Castro nationalized businesses and steered the Caribbean nation toward Soviet communism.

 

The Cuban government confiscated her properties and her husband's leather factory, assets valued at $4 million, and she was left only with "Villa Mary," a dilapidated mansion in need of repairs where she lives in virtual poverty.

 

Since January this year the U.S. government has let her withdraw a $96 a month allowance from her U.S. bank after Canadian diplomats interceded on her behalf.

 

McCarthy is asking U.S. President George W. Bush to free her money so that she can live her remaining days with dignity. She would also like to have her family's "trinkets" released.

 

"They said they couldn't give it to me because I live in Cuba. That's the only money that I have left. It is in Boston, but I live in Cuba, that's the great terrible, terrible thing," she said during a recent visit to her home.

 

"The only thing I want it for is medicines and my doctor. I don't even want to buy candy out of it," she said.

 

Framed congratulations from Pope John Paul, Queen Elizabeth and former Canadian prime minister Jean Chretien on her 100th birthday hang on walls in need of a coat of paint.

 

Pictures on a sitting room table include Castro in his trademark green military fatigues greeting a lively McCarthy during an embassy reception for Chretien when he visited in 1997.

 

HAVANA HIGH SOCIETY

 

McCarthy, who was born in St. John's, Newfoundland in 1900, met Spanish-born businessman Pedro Gomez Cueto at the opera in Boston. He swept the 24-year-old music student off her feet and down to Havana, a city booming on the wealth of sugar barons and a playground for the rich.

 

Gomez Cueto made his fortune manufacturing boots for soldiers at his Havana heel factory during World War II. As a member of Cuba's high society, McCarthy co-founded the Havana Philharmonic Orchestra, played golf at the Country Club, funded charities and danced at lavish parties at the Havana Yacht Club that she can barely remember today.

 

After Castro and his guerrillas took power in 1959, the Canadian widow visited her wealthy friends in their Miami exile. She found them in temporary lodgings waiting to return to Havana as soon as the United States ousted Castro.

 

McCarthy decided to go home and wait it out. Four decades later, Castro's government is still in power, though the ailing Cuban leader has not appeared in public for a whole year, and Mary McCarthy is as cash-strapped as Cuba's state-run economy.

 

"I stayed in Cuba because my husband was dead and I inherited the property," said McCarthy, who has no family that she knows of left in Canada. "Besides, I like Cubans. They are the best people in the world."

 

Last year Stan Keyes, the Canadian consul general in Boston at the time, wrote to the U.S. Treasury office that enforces sanctions against Cuba, to request the transfer of her funds to Canada.

 

"She is an unfortunate, albeit unintentional, victim of political circumstances," Keyes wrote. "She relies on charity. She deserves to live the rest of her days in comfort."

 

Responding to U.S. officials who suggested McCarthy leave Cuba and return to Canada, Keyes said she was no longer able to withstand a harsh Canadian winter.

 

McCarthy has been confined to a wheelchair since she fell and broke her hip in 2002.

 

A devout Catholic, she prays after tea every day. Her godson Elio Garcia wheels her to a darkened lobby where, under the gaze of a marble statue of Salome, she prays with a rosary to Cuba's spiritual patron, the Virgin of Charity.

 

McCarthy figures in the last edition of the Anglo-American directory of Cuba in 1960. Her address is still the same.

I thought her healthcare was taken care of by the Cuban government. But yet she wants her money just so she can get medicine and pay her doctor. Hmmmm.

 

[Steff]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070812/wl_can..._cuba_widow_col

I thought her healthcare was taken care of by the Cuban government. But yet she wants her money just so she can get medicine and pay her doctor. Hmmmm.

 

 

That aside, why is her money being kept from her. Christ.. she's over 100 years old. Does the government have nothing better to do?

 

 

[santo=dorf]

I'm always skeptical of Moore, but I enjoyed watching this movie for the first time last night.

 

I have health insurance but the premium is really high. Just like a lot of Americans, my first thought of getting injured is "how much is this going to cost me?"

 

I'm not going to whine for 35 hour work weeks or government paid employees to do my laundry, but it would be nice to have the health protection like the citizens in the other countries that were in this movie. What would it take to get it a system like France's in place?

Edited June 30, 2008 by santo=dorf

[southsider2k5]

I'm always skeptical of Moore, but I enjoyed watching this movie for the first time last night.

 

I have health insurance but the premium is really high. Just like a lot of Americans, my first thought of getting injured is "how much is this going to cost me?"

 

I'm not going to whine for 35 hour work weeks or government paid employees to do my laundry, but it would be nice to have the health protection like the citizens in the other countries that were in this movie. What would it take to get it a system like France's in place?

 

French tax rates?

[kapkomet]

French tax rates?

Which at a corporate level are the same as the US.

 

Individuals are taxed quite a bit more, though.

[HuskyCaucasian]

talk about a tread rising from the dead

[southsider2k5]

Which at a corporate level are the same as the US.

 

Individuals are taxed quite a bit more, though.

 

not to mention the value added taxes being way higher than most sales taxes.

[mr_genius]

What would it take to get it a system like France's in place?

 

a lot of countries that have 'free' health care for all citizens also put a cap on costs. for example, the have a list of how expensive medical care is for just about everything. in Japan it's only like $15 a night for a hospital stay. In the US it's a zillion times more. If costs remain the same, universal health care is going to be a MASSIVE increase in government spending.

[santo=dorf]

a lot of countries that have 'free' health care for all citizens also put a cap on costs. for example, the have a list of how expensive medical care is for just about everything. in Japan it's only like $15 a night for a hospital stay. In the US it's a zillion times more. If costs remain the same, universal health care is going to be a MASSIVE increase in government spending.

So cut spending. Could the government afford it if we pulled out of Iraq?

[Balta1701]

So cut spending. Could the government afford it if we pulled out of Iraq?

Here's an interesting little fact also...our government spends more on Medicare per person in the U.S. than quite a few European countries spend per person on their full national health care systems, and Medicare for us only covers the elderly.

[Cknolls]

So cut spending. Could the government afford it if we pulled out of Iraq?

 

 

That and the elimination of the Commerce, Labor, Interior, and Education departments.

 

 

I think it is pretty apparent that public employee unions are destroying: 1.) Chicago, 2.) Cook County, and 3.) Illinois. A single pension system should be enacted for all public employees no matter what form of gov't. you serve.

[NorthSideSox72]

That and the elimination of the Commerce, Labor, Interior, and Education departments.

 

 

I think it is pretty apparent that public employee unions are destroying: 1.) Chicago, 2.) Cook County, and 3.) Illinois. A single pension system should be enacted for all public employees no matter what form of gov't. you serve.

I can see the argument on Labor and Education being heavily reduced. But Commerce and Interior? Those are criticl functions, I think. They are poorly run, but that is a seperate issue.