Bush in Holy Gaffe

[Gregory Pratt]

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,...2127232,00.html

 

Vatican City - US President George W Bush drew gasps at the Vatican on Saturday by referring to Pope Benedict XVI as "sir" instead of the expected "His Holiness", pool reporters said.

 

They could clearly hear the US leader say "Yes, sir" when the pope asked him if he was going to meet with officials of the lay Catholic Sant'Egidio community at the US embassy later during his visit.

 

A handful of pool reporters were on hand as Benedict greeted Bush at the door of his private library ahead of a private audience of about half an hour.

 

On his way to see the 80-year-old pontiff, the US leader apparently recognised someone he knew, and could be heard greeting the person with a casual "How ya doin'?"

 

The pool reporters also noted Bush's relaxed posture, crossing his legs "Texan style" while facing the pope across his desk in the private study of the apostolic palace.

 

I really don't think it's that big a deal. At least, not the "sir" part, although the rest is somewhat disrespectful.

[Reddy]

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,...2127232,00.html

 

 

 

I really don't think it's that big a deal. At least, not the "sir" part, although the rest is somewhat disrespectful.

 

well right it doesn't seem like that big a deal but come on, how hard is it to just call him by his title? i just think Bush doesn't think anyone's more important than him in the world so he can do whatever he wants right? the whole world's texas to him.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Bush isn't Catholic. He has no obligation to refer to Benedict as "His Holiness".

[EvilMonkey]

Bush isn't Catholic. He has no obligation to refer to Benedict as "His Holiness".

Bingo! Besides, doesn't that title sort of scream 'i'm better than you', and imply subserviance from all who address him that way?

[FlaSoxxJim]

well right it doesn't seem like that big a deal but come on, how hard is it to just call him by his title? i just think Bush doesn't think anyone's more important than him in the world so he can do whatever he wants right? the whole world's texas to him.

 

Hey, at least he didn't try to give the Pope a shoulder rub.

 

Bush isn't Catholic. He has no obligation to refer to Benedict as "His Holiness".

 

Being Catholic or not has nothing to do with being appropriately respectful. Non-US diplomats refer to the President by his title, "Mr. President", out of respect for the office, no?

[CrimsonWeltall]

Being Catholic or not has nothing to do with being appropriately respectful. Non-US diplomats refer to the President by his title, "Mr. President", out of respect for the office, no?

 

Sure they do. President is his job title. Benedict's job title is Pope.

 

If you don't believe the guy has some kind of divine qualities or his position makes him holy, why should you address him as "His Holiness"? Personally, I think expecting people to address you by a nickname that compliments you is lame.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Sure they do. President is his job title. Benedict's job title is Pope.

 

If you don't believe the guy has some kind of divine qualities or his position makes him holy, why should you address him as "His Holiness"? Personally, I think expecting people to address you by a nickname that compliments you is lame.

 

"His Holiness" is the proper salutation - as is "Mr. President" or "Your Highness" or "Your Honor", etc.

 

I'm not particularly bent out of shape by the gaffe. Our president is a boob and his inability to carry himself properly surprises noone anymore.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(CrimsonWeltall @ Jun 10, 2007 -> 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure they do. President is his job title. Benedict's job title is Pope.

 

If you don't believe the guy has some kind of divine qualities or his position makes him holy, why should you address him as "His Holiness"? Personally, I think expecting people to address you by a nickname that compliments you is lame.

I understand where you are coming from, but when you go to court, you don't act like Joe Pesci in "My Cousin Vinny." You are to finish your sentences with "your honor," not "Judge."

[LowerCaseRepublican]

I don't think this says a whole lot about Bush. I do think it says a lot about his prep staff to get him ready for these sort of meetings/PR events. You'd figure that the prep staff would try to hammer that sort of stuff in before the meetings.

[mr_genius]

it would have been better if Bush said "Hello, your royal Highness" and then did a Japanese bow

Edited June 10, 2007 by mr_genius

[santo=dorf]

The company CEO will be making a visit on Thursday. If I happen to meet him how should I address him? "Chairman," "Mr.," "your greatness," or just plain ol' "Bob?"

[FlaSoxxJim]

The company CEO will be making a visit on Thursday. If I happen to meet him how should I address him? "Chairman," "Mr.," "your greatness," or just plain ol' "Bob?"

 

Call him "Mr. Dumbass" like in that root beer commercial.

[Rex Kickass]

What's more disrespectful than this mistake (and that's what it was - although given that this isn't his first papal audience in the last seven years, you'd think he'd get it right by now) is his habit of doing joint press conferences with heads of state and referring to them by their first name instead of "prime minister xx" or "president xx" especially given that he hates the same treatment.

[vandy125]

What's more disrespectful than this mistake (and that's what it was - although given that this isn't his first papal audience in the last seven years, you'd think he'd get it right by now) is his habit of doing joint press conferences with heads of state and referring to them by their first name instead of "prime minister xx" or "president xx" especially given that he hates the same treatment.

 

I wouldn't call it a mistake if it was me. I am not Catholic, and I would not refer to any person as "His Holiness". Only God can be referred to as Holy. We have all done wrong during our lives, including the Pope. Right now, I bristle at the idea. Other titles are fine by me, and people should be called them when the situation warrants it.

 

Maybe a Catholic can show me where the name came from, why the Pope has assumed such a name, and what it means to them.

[BigSqwert]

I could only imagine what comments we would get by some people here if it were Hillary or Obama who did this instead of the commander guy.

[NorthSideSox72]

I wouldn't call it a mistake if it was me. I am not Catholic, and I would not refer to any person as "His Holiness". Only God can be referred to as Holy. We have all done wrong during our lives, including the Pope. Right now, I bristle at the idea. Other titles are fine by me, and people should be called them when the situation warrants it.

 

Maybe a Catholic can show me where the name came from, why the Pope has assumed such a name, and what it means to them.

I am not necessarily an expert on all the history and the dogma, but I was raised Catholic. The pope is seen as the most proximal channel to God. One might think if him as the holy socket. Being that channel of holiness, he himself is holy. At least, that's the way we were taught. Except for the socket part. I made that up myself.

 

This concept (and many others the Catholic Church embraces) is not really new to them. Its taken from many religions previous to the existence of Christianity, wherein the priests were more like demi-gods.

[EvilMonkey]

I could only imagine what comments we would get by some people here if it were Hillary or Obama who did this instead of the commander guy.

crickets chirping. not hard to imagine.

[southsider2k5]

I wouldn't call it a mistake if it was me. I am not Catholic, and I would not refer to any person as "His Holiness". Only God can be referred to as Holy. We have all done wrong during our lives, including the Pope. Right now, I bristle at the idea. Other titles are fine by me, and people should be called them when the situation warrants it.

 

Maybe a Catholic can show me where the name came from, why the Pope has assumed such a name, and what it means to them.

 

That's a really good point. I know a lot of non-Catholics who feel the way that priests, saints, and the Pope are treated is basically idolatry. I doubt this was the case with George Bush, but still it is an interesting point to this.

[LosMediasBlancas]

I'm no fan of Bush, but is it possible he just didn't know 'the rules' and wasn't coached on them? Geez.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I wouldn't call it a mistake if it was me. I am not Catholic, and I would not refer to any person as "His Holiness". Only God can be referred to as Holy. We have all done wrong during our lives, including the Pope. Right now, I bristle at the idea. Other titles are fine by me, and people should be called them when the situation warrants it.

 

Maybe a Catholic can show me where the name came from, why the Pope has assumed such a name, and what it means to them.

 

First off, although I was born into it I have not been a Catholic for about 22 years. Being an atheist sort of runs counter to being a Catholic, and so I parted ways with a belief in a Divine Agent some time ago.

 

That said, I think leaders of the world’s religions deserve formal respect when interacting with international dignitaries regardless of whether the individuals share the same faith systems.

 

There are a number of traditional titles (eights of them as of 2006 according to the Annuario Pontificio) by which Catholics can refer to the Pope. “His Holiness” is not one of these – it is not based on shared faith. “His Holiness” merely happens to be the official manner of address for the leaders of a number of religions – not just Roman Catholicism. I don’t think Joseph Ratzinger is a particularly great man. I think he is too conservative for the good of a modern Roman Catholic Church that (imo as an outsider) needs to come to terms with a number of 21st century realities. I understand there were historic forces that shaped his past and pressed him into compulsory service in the Hitler Youth and Nazi air corps, so I don’t condemn him for that (Besides, redemption through service to God ala’ St. Paul is at the heart of Christianity), but he’s no JP2.

 

But he is the Pope, and if I had an audience with him I would address him formally and reverently as “Your Holiness” even though we so not share the same belief system. I would similarly call the Dalai Lama “Your Holiness” ands I would call Sakya Trizin (leader of the Sakya Tibetan Buddhists) “Your Holiness”, and I would call the leaders of the various Eastern Orthodox churches “Your Holiness” as well. It has nothing to do with shared belief systems, merely an observance of the proper official manner of address.

 

The President’s handlers should be capable of understanding that, even if President Bush himself does not.

 

I’m not losing any sleep over the gaffe, like I said. I can care less if President Bush insists on remaining an embarrassment on multiple facets of the world stage. I merely foolishly expected that our leader would be capable of following simple protocols and decorum expected in situations like this.

[EvilMonkey]

The story isn't too clear on this, but the way I heard it, during Bush's visit with the Pope, he answered ONE question with 'Yes Sir'. How many times during his visit did he say 'Your Holiness', or did he call his 'Sir' throughout? if it was one question that he said that to, you all are making a mountain out of a molehill. Pelosi probably crapped bigger f***ups than that while trying to play ambassadore over in the middle east.

[RibbieRubarb]

The story isn't too clear on this, but the way I heard it, during Bush's visit with the Pope, he answered ONE question with 'Yes Sir'. How many times during his visit did he say 'Your Holiness', or did he call his 'Sir' throughout? if it was one question that he said that to, you all are making a mountain out of a molehill. Pelosi probably crapped bigger f***ups than that while trying to play ambassadore over in the middle east.

 

Why bring Pelosi into this? Why are you making this a political argument?

 

As for Bush...I agree the "sir" comment might have been the only time he did that and that he addressed the Pope as "Your Holiness" other times. I am not a Bush supporter by any means and I am Catholic. But this is a minor gaffe.

When addressing the Queen, you can refer to her as "Your Highness" or "Ma'am".

I'm sure the Pope took no offense being called Sir. "Sir" is still a formal sign of respect.

 

At least he didn't say "You're doin' a heck of a job, Benny!"

Edited June 12, 2007 by RibbieRubarb

[vandy125]

But he is the Pope, and if I had an audience with him I would address him formally and reverently as “Your Holiness” even though we so not share the same belief system. I would similarly call the Dalai Lama “Your Holiness” ands I would call Sakya Trizin (leader of the Sakya Tibetan Buddhists) “Your Holiness”, and I would call the leaders of the various Eastern Orthodox churches “Your Holiness” as well. It has nothing to do with shared belief systems, merely an observance of the proper official manner of address.

 

The President’s handlers should be capable of understanding that, even if President Bush himself does not.

 

I’m not losing any sleep over the gaffe, like I said. I can care less if President Bush insists on remaining an embarrassment on multiple facets of the world stage. I merely foolishly expected that our leader would be capable of following simple protocols and decorum expected in situations like this.

 

I doubt that Bush was thinking of things the way that I am about the title. It was probably a slip. However, no matter how much I respect the Pope, the Dalai Lama, or other leaders, I just can not reverently address someone with a title that I do not believe that they hold (unless I am able to understand the title in a way that I am not seeing that holds). Doing so would constitute a hypocritical stance. I would be believing one thing, but saying another.

 

Again, I doubt that Bush was thinking this. I do not mean to offend any Catholics, but I just do not believe the title applies, and it is something that I would not be able to do. I'm sure that there are other titles that show proper respect to the Pope.

[thedoctor]

Hey, at least he didn't try to give the Pope a shoulder rub.

 

or ask to try on the hat.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I doubt that Bush was thinking of things the way that I am about the title. It was probably a slip. However, no matter how much I respect the Pope, the Dalai Lama, or other leaders, I just can not reverently address someone with a title that I do not believe that they hold (unless I am able to understand the title in a way that I am not seeing that holds). Doing so would constitute a hypocritical stance. I would be believing one thing, but saying another.

 

Again, I doubt that Bush was thinking this. I do not mean to offend any Catholics, but I just do not believe the title applies, and it is something that I would not be able to do. I'm sure that there are other titles that show proper respect to the Pope.

 

I follow your line of reasoning, but I don't equate calling somebody "Your Holiness" with accepting that they have any sort of Divinely-ordained authority over me or anybody else. The College of Cardinals chose one of their own to be the Pope and tradition and decorum instruct us how we should properly address him regardless of whether we share faith beliefs.

 

And truly, I don't really care about it. It was a lapse in etiquette, and no more.

 

or ask to try on the hat.

 

 

Now, would that be the mitre or the zuchetto?