Bush in Holy Gaffe

[Rex Kickass]

I wouldn't call it a mistake if it was me. I am not Catholic, and I would not refer to any person as "His Holiness". Only God can be referred to as Holy. We have all done wrong during our lives, including the Pope. Right now, I bristle at the idea. Other titles are fine by me, and people should be called them when the situation warrants it.

 

Maybe a Catholic can show me where the name came from, why the Pope has assumed such a name, and what it means to them.

 

Your personal viewpoint has no business in an official state visit. We recognize the Holy See as a sovereign nation and this was a visit to the Pope in the Vatican. As such, it is only respectful to follow the etiquette that is expected in the house you're visiting.

 

This president is well known for correcting people for not referring to him as "Mr. President" as is the current standard of behavior in the White House. You'd think he'd do the same.

 

What he said to the Pope is a mistake, and no big deal. How he refers to heads of state in joint press conferences however is not. It's just disrespectful.

[thedoctor]

Now, would that be the mitre or the zuchetto?

 

*bush*

 

"oh, i dunno, the one that looks like a fence-post digger."

[FlaSoxxJim]

*bush*

 

"oh, i dunno, the one that looks like a fence-post digger."

 

That would be the mitre.

 

 

The zucchetto is the Papal Beanie:

 

 

Damn, I need to purge the cranial hard drive of all this useless crud.

[thedoctor]

Damn, I need to purge the cranial hard drive of all this useless crud.

 

good luck with that. the folks at barnabas were very effective from what my friends say.

[FlaSoxxJim]

good luck with that. the folks at barnabas were very effective from what my friends say.

 

That they were. Class of 1981 right here, and I still have nightmares about Sr. Cornelius my 4th grade math teacher.

[vandy125]

Your personal viewpoint has no business in an official state visit. We recognize the Holy See as a sovereign nation and this was a visit to the Pope in the Vatican. As such, it is only respectful to follow the etiquette that is expected in the house you're visiting.

 

This president is well known for correcting people for not referring to him as "Mr. President" as is the current standard of behavior in the White House. You'd think he'd do the same.

 

That is a good point. However, I would hope that we allow our elected officials to have their own view point. They were elected with those view points. Someone else should get elected if the general population does not agree with them and views that opinion as too big of a problem.

 

You may call this a straw argument, but I'm going to try and draw a correlation that does not involve religion. I'm sure someone else can come up with a better one. I am in no way correlating Catholicism to the oil industry. I am just making the point about calling someone a title that you do not personally believe. The point is an extreme one to make it obvious.

 

If an elected official was visiting the heads of the oil industry and they expected everyone to call them "The Environmentalists", but the elected official did not believe that was true, should he still be required to call them that because of etiquette? Now, you may point out the difference between the heads of oil industry and that of a sovereign nation, but "His Holiness" is a religious title. It is not a title for the head of a nation.

[EvilMonkey]

That is a good point. However, I would hope that we allow our elected officials to have their own view point. They were elected with those view points. Someone else should get elected if the general population does not agree with them and views that opinion as too big of a problem.

 

You may call this a straw argument, but I'm going to try and draw a correlation that does not involve religion. I'm sure someone else can come up with a better one. I am in no way correlating Catholicism to the oil industry. I am just making the point about calling someone a title that you do not personally believe. The point is an extreme one to make it obvious.

 

If an elected official was visiting the heads of the oil industry and they expected everyone to call them "The Environmentalists", but the elected official did not believe that was true, should he still be required to call them that because of etiquette? Now, you may point out the difference between the heads of oil industry and that of a sovereign nation, but "His Holiness" is a religious title. It is not a title for the head of a nation.

The only problem with that is the Vatican is reconized as a nation-state, so his title would be one of a head-of-state.

[Rex Kickass]

That is a good point. However, I would hope that we allow our elected officials to have their own view point. They were elected with those view points. Someone else should get elected if the general population does not agree with them and views that opinion as too big of a problem.

 

You may call this a straw argument, but I'm going to try and draw a correlation that does not involve religion. I'm sure someone else can come up with a better one. I am in no way correlating Catholicism to the oil industry. I am just making the point about calling someone a title that you do not personally believe. The point is an extreme one to make it obvious.

 

If an elected official was visiting the heads of the oil industry and they expected everyone to call them "The Environmentalists", but the elected official did not believe that was true, should he still be required to call them that because of etiquette? Now, you may point out the difference between the heads of oil industry and that of a sovereign nation, but "His Holiness" is a religious title. It is not a title for the head of a nation.

 

Vandy,

 

"His Holiness" is the title of the head of state to the Holy See, a recognized nation by the United States. If you recognize the sovereignty of the nation, you use the correct title when addressing the head of state. It's diplomacy 101.

[CanOfCorn]

Vandy (and anyone else who agrees with him),

 

It's not about what you believe. In fact, it's not about you at all. Any person that is the head of anything deserves respect whether you believe in it or not. Just because I'm not the most religious Jew doesn't mean I won't call someone Rabbi or won't call a priest, Father. It's their title and they deserve the respect that comes with it.

 

If you don't believe in it, that's fine. But when you are speaking to someone who does believe it and/or has earned a title, they DO deserve it.

[kapkomet]

I could only imagine what comments we would get by some people here if it were Hillary or Obama who did this instead of the commander guy.

Well, I for one, don't really care. This is filed right there in the micro-give-a-s***s pile. Next.

[vandy125]

Vandy (and anyone else who agrees with him),

 

It's not about what you believe. In fact, it's not about you at all. Any person that is the head of anything deserves respect whether you believe in it or not. Just because I'm not the most religious Jew doesn't mean I won't call someone Rabbi or won't call a priest, Father. It's their title and they deserve the respect that comes with it.

 

If you don't believe in it, that's fine. But when you are speaking to someone who does believe it and/or has earned a title, they DO deserve it.

 

I am now looking at it from a different point of view after going through this chat with all of you. Instead of ascribing the attribute to the person that the title confers, I am now viewing it as what they should be and what they should live up to (sounds straight forward enough). Regardless of whether or not they can live up to that title, or whether or not they do live up to that title, they have it, and they are the ones that need to live up to it. I am also not the judge of that. So, I have no problem with calling them whatever name they want.