White Sox Loser

[jackie hayes]

He did? He explained why Paul Konerko, Jermaine Dye and AJ Pierzynski have collectively hit for an OPS+ of about 85?

 

Please -- somebody outline a reasonable offseason scenario that would have us -- RIGHT NOW -- competing with Detroit and Cleveland. I still haven't seen one yet... nor the posts from the winter calling for Crede to be traded.

You may have missed my many offseason posts about picking up Josh Hamilton and Hideki Okajima, along with my prescient posts concerning how we should pick up Ramon Ortiz and Jack Cust and release them after a few weeks or a month. I also said something about trading for Jeremy Guthrie -- once he starts to suck I'll let you know when I said we should release him. Need some time to look for those...

[CWSGuy406]

It doesn't exist, which is the whole problem in the first place. No matter what we did this offseason, we were a 3rd place team, which goes back to poor drafting, poor depth, and poor general talent in the organization. KW has been our GM since 2001, so that all goes on his desk.

 

I can't disagree with this. Then again, you really want Williams canned over that? It's a problem, no doubt, but I don't think he should be fired over that. His real problem has been developing any real position players. It's something that needs to be fixed.

 

I'm still not calling for him to be fired, though. From 2001-2007, he's improved greatly as a GM, and sure, he still has his problems, but not enough for him to be fired. The next five months are big, though -- he's got to do well with the Buehrle, Dye, Iguchi and to a lesser extent Crede situations.

[daa84]

wouldnt it be nice to have and OF of C. Lee Rowand and Magglio right now?

[Hanky Panky]

Corpseball w/o the solo homers!

[CWSGuy406]

You may have missed my many offseason posts about picking up Josh Hamilton and Hideki Okajima, along with my prescient posts concerning how we should pick up Ramon Ortiz and Jack Cust and release them after a few weeks or a month. I also said something about trading for Jeremy Guthrie -- once he starts to suck I'll let you know when I said we should release him. Need some time to look for those...

 

Heh, I can't tell if you're being 100% serious in part of your post.

 

There's things that Williams could have done to make this team better -- that's for sure -- but competing with Cleveland or Detroit? Not when four of your top five hitters aren't even league average right now.

[southsideirish71]

Corpseball w/o the solo homers!

 

This is beyond corpseball, this is FecalBall.

[jackie hayes]

Heh, I can't tell if you're being 100% serious in part of your post.

 

There's things that Williams could have done to make this team better -- that's for sure -- but competing with Cleveland or Detroit? Not when four of your top five hitters aren't even league average right now.

That's about as sarcastic as I can get, right there.

 

The bullpen is frustrating, but I still hate the idea of signing "established" relievers for the ridiculous numbers they're commanding. (Really, Danys Baez for $5+ mil???) I like the strategy. The lineup -- I wish the cf situation had been handled better, and we had a better power option for left -- but it's not nearly the difference.

 

The big problem of the Sox is the inability to get ANYTHING from the minors. But when the relievers can't pitch, do you blame the stocking of the system, the development, or the major league coaching that can't even get the vet relievers to pitch well? When the hitting prospects suck, are they bad prospects, were they coached badly, or is it the major league coaching, which has somehow overseen the total collapse of the entire lineup? I have no idea anymore. This team just looks all f***ed.

[witesoxfan]

That's me. I'm ripping him. I'm not blaming him for tonight. But I am ripping him.

 

Because 3 times a game, he leaves it up, and he gets rocked. If no one's on base, it's 3 runs. If Mr. Nibbles happens to put a couple of guys on beforehand, it's 5 or 6 runs. I'm tired of it. That guy symbolizes every mistake Kenny Williams has made -- his total fixation on guys, regardless of their abilities and track record; his belief that he's smarter than everyone else about "the market;" and his conviction that the organization he built can "fix" guys. Jesus, man, how about this: develop some players, reward the guys who have done something for the team (not those you think MIGHT), and stop b****ing about the world as it is -- just deal with it.

 

Do you understand that Vazquez is the 4th starter for this White Sox team? Or that he's been essentially as good as Buehrle this year?

 

He's been solid as hell this year, and has received 1 run in his last 2 starts and 4 runs in his last 3.

 

And he's b****ing about the market because it's ridiculous, but he deals with it like every other GM, especially considering he signed Vazquez to a contract that is below market value and is for a short period of time.

 

Honestly, the ripping of Vazquez gets a bit ridiculous at times; I don't recall such unwarranted hatred of a player ever. I mean, atleast Jamie Navarro sucked and Barry Bonds is a complete jackass. Javy just pitches well, never opens his mouth, and gets torn apart because KW f***ed up. Rip KW, not Javy; that's really all I ask.

[whitesoxfan101]

I can't disagree with this. Then again, you really want Williams canned over that? It's a problem, no doubt, but I don't think he should be fired over that. His real problem has been developing any real position players. It's something that needs to be fixed.

 

I'm still not calling for him to be fired, though. From 2001-2007, he's improved greatly as a GM, and sure, he still has his problems, but not enough for him to be fired. The next five months are big, though -- he's got to do well with the Buehrle, Dye, Iguchi and to a lesser extent Crede situations.

 

Our organization is, AT BEST, in an equal position now as it was when he took over. IMO it's worse off than it was then, and that was 6 years ago. If that isn't a damning statement about his job performance, I don't know what is.

[CWSGuy406]

Our organization is, AT BEST, in an equal position now as it was when he took over. IMO it's worse off than it was then, and that was 6 years ago.

 

The organization is WORSE OFF than it was six years ago? You're kidding, right? Please, show me how the Sox organization is worse off now than it was six years ago... This should be classic.

 

If that isn't a damning statement about his job performance, I don't know what is.

 

If it was a true statement, you might have a point.

[Rowand44]

Our organization is, AT BEST, in an equal position now as it was when he took over. IMO it's worse off than it was then, and that was 6 years ago. If that isn't a damning statement about his job performance, I don't know what is.

This has to be a joke, right?

[BearSox]

So, Cy Eaton is looking like a lock for the Cy Young and MVP awards, right? Also, is it likely that he starts the all-star game?

[Soxbadger]

Our organization is, AT BEST, in an equal position now as it was when he took over. IMO it's worse off than it was then, and that was 6 years ago. If that isn't a damning statement about his job performance, I don't know what is.

 

People on this board are AT BEST half as smart as they used to be.

 

You spout on this board like you are a god, as if you have some sort of insight that no one else in the world has.

 

But honestly you know nothing about the Sox, nothing about being a Sox fan, and show absolutely no loyalty towards your team.

 

Williams won a championship. Not one of us on this board had ever seen that prior to KW being hired, and many of us may never see it again after. If KW was not our GM it is pretty likely that we do not win the 2005 World Series.

 

And maybe it was a fluke, who even cares, the point is, WE WON THE WORLD SERIES. No one can ever take away the parade, the singing on Wacker, any of the moments that every real Sox fan got to live.

 

So Im going to give him the benefit of the doubt, they won 90 games last year, why dont you check how many times they won 90 games in back to back seasons before KW.

 

And Vazquez is a good pitcher, cant win games when no one is scoring runs. Id say Vaz will likely have the lowest era of any Sox pitcher this year.

 

What a terrible player.

[Sonik22]

People on this board are AT BEST half as smart as they used to be.

 

You spout on this board like you are a god, as if you have some sort of insight that no one else in the world has.

 

But honestly you know nothing about the Sox, nothing about being a Sox fan, and show absolutely no loyalty towards your team.

 

Williams won a championship. Not one of us on this board had ever seen that prior to KW being hired, and many of us may never see it again after. If KW was not our GM it is pretty likely that we do not win the 2005 World Series.

 

And maybe it was a fluke, who even cares, the point is, WE WON THE WORLD SERIES. No one can ever take away the parade, the singing on Wacker, any of the moments that every real Sox fan got to live.

 

So Im going to give him the benefit of the doubt, they won 90 games last year, why dont you check how many times they won 90 games in back to back seasons before KW.

 

And Vazquez is a good pitcher, cant win games when no one is scoring runs. Id say Vaz will likely have the lowest era of any Sox pitcher this year.

 

What a terrible player.

Cub fans would die to be able to say 2005 World Series Champions.

[knightni]

Tied for the major league lead in most times being shutout this season with 5.

[whitesoxfan101]

People on this board are AT BEST half as smart as they used to be.

 

You spout on this board like you are a god, as if you have some sort of insight that no one else in the world has.

 

But honestly you know nothing about the Sox, nothing about being a Sox fan, and show absolutely no loyalty towards your team.

 

Williams won a championship. Not one of us on this board had ever seen that prior to KW being hired, and many of us may never see it again after. If KW was not our GM it is pretty likely that we do not win the 2005 World Series.

 

And maybe it was a fluke, who even cares, the point is, WE WON THE WORLD SERIES. No one can ever take away the parade, the singing on Wacker, any of the moments that every real Sox fan got to live.

 

So Im going to give him the benefit of the doubt, they won 90 games last year, why dont you check how many times they won 90 games in back to back seasons before KW.

 

And Vazquez is a good pitcher, cant win games when no one is scoring runs. Id say Vaz will likely have the lowest era of any Sox pitcher this year.

 

What a terrible player.

 

The holier than thou, bright and sunny, we won it all 2 years ago so your an idiot for not liking us going from World Champs to 3rd worst team in the AL in 20 months people are just adorable. If you find this acceptable, there is a team 8 miles north that would enjoy your money. But KW has failed 6 of 7 years now, and our system lacks talent. That is pretty bad in my book, but hey whatever you say bud.

[beautox]

Either they'll select someone much higher than expected because of signability concerns, or we'll hear analysts suggest the upcoming 2008 draft is the worst in recorded history. I'd love to see a Tim Lincecum, Andrew Miller, Jarrod Parker type fall into our laps next season. But of course, we're probably going to get screwed somehow.

 

I'd of loved to see a Rick Porcello type fall into our laps this year, that would've been ready to step up when our next window opens up....oh wait

[whitesoxfan101]

The organization is WORSE OFF than it was six years ago? You're kidding, right? Please, show me how the Sox organization is worse off now than it was six years ago... This should be classic.

 

Our major league team is old and lacking talent, our minor league system is just generally lacking talent, and our division is much deeper than it was 6 years ago. Our attendance and fanbase are obviously WAY better, but the on the field product is no better. It's more accomplished obviously, but definitely not better.

[hitlesswonder]

Maybe. But until Josh Fields can hit a fastball, I'm not sure he's much of a prospect.

I agree. Fields looks like a non-prospect to me. He just isn't going to hit major league pitching. Another fine job by the Sox scouting and development team.

 

The holier than thou, bright and sunny, we won it all 2 years ago so your an idiot for not liking us going from World Champs to 3rd worst team in the AL in 20 months people are just adorable. If you find this acceptable, there is a team 8 miles north that would enjoy your money. But KW has failed 6 of 7 years now, and our system lacks talent. That is pretty bad in my book, but hey whatever you say bud.

I agree with that as well. Anyone that thinks it's out of line for someone to suggest the Sox need a new GM needs to look hard at the minor league system. Worst. In. Baseball. It's completely devoid of position prospects and it's lone pitching prospect has numbers propped up by a bad hitting league and a huge home park. The Sox have made the post season once under Williams. That's indisputable and not a record to brag about.

 

The organization is WORSE OFF than it was six years ago? You're kidding, right? Please, show me how the Sox organization is worse off now than it was six years ago... This should be classic.

If it was a true statement, you might have a point.

The Sox organization had far more talent 6 years ago than now. This year's draft looks like a suckfest as well, which means the Sox are likely 5 years away from producing a young talented player -- but at least they'll be in position to get one since they will have a top 5 draft pick in 2008. The organization is clearly worse off than it was 6 years ago.

[witesoxfan]

The holier than thou, bright and sunny, we won it all 2 years ago so your an idiot for not liking us going from World Champs to 3rd worst team in the AL in 20 months people are just adorable. If you find this acceptable, there is a team 8 miles north that would enjoy your money. But KW has failed 6 of 7 years now, and our system lacks talent. That is pretty bad in my book, but hey whatever you say bud.

 

Inform me as to how he failed in 2003 and 2006. To me, both of those years were entirely on the managers. KW put out two of the most talented teams I've ever seen in my life.

 

Our major league team is old and lacking talent, our minor league system is just generally lacking talent, and our division is much deeper than it was 6 years ago. Our attendance and fanbase are obviously WAY better, but the on the field product is no better. It's more accomplished obviously, but definitely not better.

 

And everyone in the division is in envy of the White Sox organization for some fluky ass postseason run in 2005.

[greg775]

"The Sox don't stink anymore" was a great banner one glorious season.

The Sox do stink now.

What a pathetic team we have out there, injuries of course part of the problem

to go with the awful reworking of the bullpen and sudden lack of home runs.

[Wanne]

Jesus, man, how about this: develop some players, reward the guys who have done something for the team (not those you think MIGHT), and stop b****ing about the world as it is -- just deal with it.

 

Agree with the develop some players...but starts with DRAFT some players. BTW..."stop b****ing about the world---just deal with it?!? Didn't you just have about 5 post b****ing about Vazquez?

 

 

You may have missed my many offseason posts about picking up Josh Hamilton and Hideki Okajima, along with my prescient posts concerning how we should pick up Ramon Ortiz and Jack Cust and release them after a few weeks or a month. I also said something about trading for Jeremy Guthrie -- once he starts to suck I'll let you know when I said we should release him. Need some time to look for those...

 

Yeah...I wish I could refer to my posts before last year wanting Eric Byrnes...only to get met with the "woohoo more grinders" reply.

[jackie hayes]

Yeah...I wish I could refer to my posts before last year wanting Eric Byrnes...only to get met with the "woohoo more grinders" reply.

Yeah...my post was complete bulls***.

[CWSGuy406]

He just isn't going to hit major league pitching.

 

Nice to see you know this based on Fields' 40 major league at-bats.

 

I agree with that as well. Anyone that thinks it's out of line for someone to suggest the Sox need a new GM needs to look hard at the minor league system. Worst. In. Baseball.

 

Hy-per-bole. I see you've become quite the fan of it.

 

The system is below average. It's not the worst in baseball.

 

It's completely devoid of position prospects and it's lone pitching prospect has numbers propped up by a bad hitting league and a huge home park. The Sox have made the post season once under Williams. That's indisputable and not a record to brag about.

 

The Sox have averaged 87 wins since 2001. Of the GMs in baseball who qualify, I'd guess that number ranks in the top third.

 

I also view his early years differently -- he wasn't very good in his early years but seemingly got better and better.

 

The Sox organization had far more talent 6 years ago than now.

 

The Sox organization six years ago had absolutely NO pitching. That's a lie -- they had Buehrle and Garland. That's about it. The pitching 'talent' that was in the minors all flamed out.

 

This year's draft looks like a suckfest as well

 

Thanks for that. Tell me, why aren't you working for Baseball America again?

 

Oh, and you're really a friend of that hyperbole that I mentioned.

 

The organization is clearly worse off than it was 6 years ago.

 

Williams has taken this team from a mid-market team to being in that second tier of large market teams. He's added a bunch of good arms to the team. He's put the Sox in a position to where they won't have to spend $40 million dollars for a starting pitcher this winter, regardless of whether or not they resign Buehrle.

 

The lack of position players in the organization and the lack of depth is completely on his shoulders -- I agree with that 100%. That being said...

 

-It's easier and safer to buy position players on the market.

 

-He's addressed the situation by retooling the 'scouting system' (for lack of a better term) -- successful or not, it's good to see he's recognized that a problem is there. Now, I understand it needs to pay dividends -- there's no doubting that -- but I want to see where it goes.

 

Basically, I don't think Kenny has done enough wrong to get fired.

Edited June 12, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Agree with the develop some players...but starts with DRAFT some players. BTW..."stop b****ing about the world---just deal with it?!? Didn't you just have about 5 post b****ing about Vazquez?

 

Let's start with this: earlier in this thread, I defended Williams for not trading Crede. And no one could have assumed how bad MacDougal would be. I thought that guy was a really good addition. So I'll always give Williams credit where it's due.

 

BUT --

 

In my mind, you don't deal with the inflated market for mid-level pitchers by signing one of those guys. You deal with the market by accepting that's the cost for crappy pitchers, that it will drive up the cost for pitchers who've actually proven their worth -- and then, particularly, when you have 2 of those guys already on your team who won ALCS games and pitched in the World Series for you -- you pony up and sign THEM. You don't try to trade one of them to the Astros and let the other one twist in his contract year. And, yeah, I'm putting that on Williams, not Buehrle. Lock up the guys who are young and your core. All that time Williams b****es and moans about how hard it was to trade Rowand -- and how much he'd love to have him back -- and he's got another "grinder" guy like that in Buehrle -- then sign the man. Don't put your money into the guy with the lifetime record under .500, all the while complaining about this gosh darn crazy pitching market and then letting go a left-handed starter who won 100 games about 40 games earlier than Mr. Nibbles.