This is why we have an illegal immigration problem.

[vandy125]

Have you ever thought about what the cost of illegal immigration is?

Problems caused by illegal imigration

1. Health care costs and other social services go high/get overwhelmed.

2. Jobs they are working do not improve in wages, benefits, or conditions. That is the true reason why many Americans will not work these positions. It is a situation that is an enabler for companies to not have to improve things for their workers.

3. Taxes are not paid. So, the money that they do make does not go towards paying for the services that they are using.

4. Why should anyone even try to be a legal immigrant of you are going to let others slide through?

5. Undocumented people in the system that could be threats or criminals just overwhelming our prison system as well. This may be a small percentage that are actually threats, but it is still there.

 

Looking back at reasons 1-3, it ends up that we (the true taxpayers) are paying for the benefits that would be paid by the companies if they worked with legal immigrants. So, our services are overwhelmed and underfunded that the illegals end up with access to, and that should not be needed if the company they were working for actually paid for these benefits.

 

The burden of benefits has been shifted over to the American taxpayer and to the LEGAL immigrants so that we can live in a more dangerous country with an over-bloated social program.

 

Yay hard-working illegals!

 

How about we work towards a way to allow more legal immigrants into the country? It is better for everyone involved.

[kapkomet]

How about we work towards a way to allow more legal immigrants into the country? It is better for everyone involved.

 

Oh YEA the guest worker program... :puke.

 

Although, I'd be in favor of it, if it were actually a serious alternative, and they could not get any government benefits. They would WORK, tax-free, as contractors, and they would get NO benefits. No welfare, no social security, no health, no nothing... the only "benefit" they would get is to use our structure, and they would only pay taxes on what they buy in the states (through sales taxes that goes to local government anyway, and that's where it should go).

 

Then, they could apply for citizenship, and only be eligible for benegits AFTER they got accepted as a citizen, through the proper channels. Oh, by the way, they would probably be making more, because they will have worked their way up.

[Balta1701]

Oh YEA the guest worker program... :puke.

 

Although, I'd be in favor of it, if it were actually a serious alternative, and they could not get any government benefits. They would WORK, tax-free, as contractors, and they would get NO benefits. No welfare, no social security, no health, no nothing... the only "benefit" they would get is to use our structure, and they would only pay taxes on what they buy in the states (through sales taxes that goes to local government anyway, and that's where it should go).

 

Then, they could apply for citizenship, and only be eligible for benegits AFTER they got accepted as a citizen, through the proper channels. Oh, by the way, they would probably be making more, because they will have worked their way up.

So, in other words, you agree with everything in the current immigration bill except for the fact it allows some benefits to be conferred upon guest workers before they attain citizenship?

 

Also, I'm not sure you've completely thought this through. For example, working with no health benefits. Fine. So what happens when some of those 10 million folks do get sick? Are they just allowed to die? If the government is forbidden from spending money on them and they don't receive health benefits through their insurance, then basically they're unable to get treatment in anything except an ER for any illness or injury they have (ER's having no ability under current law to refuse emergency cases). This is one of the major problems with our current insurance disaster; it's so expensive to go to an ER that it's a horrid waste of money when used as the only means of treatment.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Ideally we would force factories to cleanup their act and make it safe to work in and not have a need for illegal immigrants to work those jobs because they would be more attractive to the regular person. So, im against the factories that employ the illegal immigrants but not against the illegals.

 

 

Now THIS is something I can agree with. If it weren't for corporations trying to cut corners and hire these people there wouldnt be a problem with all this.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,282833,00.html

 

Get a load of these hispanic activists' reaction to AHNOLD'S statement. They're of the opinion that Mexicans don't need to assimilate at all.

 

And you leftys wonder why we get so upset over this issue.

[kapkomet]

So, in other words, you agree with everything in the current immigration bill except for the fact it allows some benefits to be conferred upon guest workers before they attain citizenship?

 

Also, I'm not sure you've completely thought this through. For example, working with no health benefits. Fine. So what happens when some of those 10 million folks do get sick? Are they just allowed to die? If the government is forbidden from spending money on them and they don't receive health benefits through their insurance, then basically they're unable to get treatment in anything except an ER for any illness or injury they have (ER's having no ability under current law to refuse emergency cases). This is one of the major problems with our current insurance disaster; it's so expensive to go to an ER that it's a horrid waste of money when used as the only means of treatment.

No, I don't agree that the people here illegally should get a path to citizenship. It's AMNESTY, and I don't think they should get it.

 

I sort of agree with what you're saying on the "what if they get sick while they're working here" bit... but, they should have to go home for treatment, then. Oh, what if they're too sick to? Well, what do we do, without bleeding me (the US taxpayer) dry?

[SleepyWhiteSox]

The study I sighted last week estimates it costs $20,000 a year in a net tax money out flow for each illegal, on average, that is in this country.

 

I’ve yet to see an unbiased, official study done to find out what the real numbers are, and I have a feeling that’ll never happen. I can see how it would be difficult when having to factor in the contributions of their labor, spending as consumers and taxes on their purchases, true numbers of the social services illegal immigrants themselves use, taxes they do pay, etc., but I would think it would be beneficial to do so. Maybe someday…

 

We also wouldn't have to depend on the racist system that gives preferences to the places in the world which are closest to us. There are plenty of people in the world who need help more than lots of the illegals who are here. Why is it that a Mexican who can climb a border fence is a better candidate to live here, than a Rwanada lost boy? Is the fact that one lives closer than the other, more important than the fact that boy might be killed simply for being what race he is? Why shouldn't someone like that have his life made better first? Because it costs too much? Hell Social Security costs too much, but I don't see anyone saying to get rid of it.

 

Of course cost and distance are the determining factors. And I’m sure you knew that too. Your great sympathy and wanting to bring more immigrants in danger in war-torn countries is interesting, though…

 

Right now there are 7 hispanics doing the maintenance in the stripmall lot where my store is located. One is riding on a lawnmower, 2 are walking along with leafblowers on thier backs, and the other 4 are follwing behind. 2 are holding garbage cans, 2 are bending down picking up bits of trash and stuff to put in the cans. They have been out there for at least 30 minutes so far, and this is a small strip mall. Moving very slow (except for the guy riding the mower). Yup, they are working hard, just bustin' ass cleaning the parking lot.

 

Hispanics doing yardwork?? Must all be illegal. Damn those lazy Hispanic illegal immigrants and there unsatisfactory pace…

 

Oh, by the way, they would probably be making more, because they will have worked their way up.

 

I’m with you on that. Only those born and bred in the good ol’ U S of A deserve to work there way up and prosper. Americans are worth so much more than non-Americans…

 

 

Now THIS is something I can agree with. If it weren't for corporations trying to cut corners and hire these people there wouldnt be a problem with all this.

 

No, no, no. Why shed light on the root of the problem when stereotyping and degrading illegal immigrants is so much more fun?? (And no, I am not directing this towards anyone here in particular.)

 

More should be done to strike this problem at its root, i.e. the government and businesses/corporations who allow this illegal immigration problem to grow and become worse because of how they profit from it, rather than the slandering and degradation of Hispanics and illegal immigrants.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,282833,00.html

 

Get a load of these hispanic activists' reaction to AHNOLD'S statement. They're of the opinion that Mexicans don't need to assimilate at all.

 

And you leftys wonder why we get so upset over this issue.

 

Some of the kids of Hispanic immigrants don’t even speak much Spanish.

 

I see their assimilation as no different than any other ethnicity or culture that has come throughout the years. And in certain aspects, since Hispanic culture already shares some similarities with ours, prossibly quicker than the assimilation of those from cultures and ethnicities farther away that are much more different.

Edited June 15, 2007 by SleepyWhiteSox

[kapkomet]

I’m with you on that. Only those born and bred in the good ol’ U S of A deserve to work there way up and prosper. Americans are worth so much more than non-Americans…

No one ever said that.

[EvilMonkey]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,282833,00.html

 

Get a load of these hispanic activists' reaction to AHNOLD'S statement. They're of the opinion that Mexicans don't need to assimilate at all.

 

And you leftys wonder why we get so upset over this issue.

I love this line:

Pilar Marrero, the political editor for the Spanish-language newspaper La Opinion, chuckled at the governor's comments, saying many Hispanics did not have time to learn English.

 

"They're too busy working," she said.

While I realize that not much verbal communication is needed to pick fruit or wash dishes, you should need to know a little to cash a paycheck, or communicate with anyone else you meet in your day to day life. Why is it the responsability of emergency personel and police offices to know spanish, people here should be speakign english to them. Or for that matter, why should the shift supervisor at the meat plant have to know spanish, his workers should all know english. But this line should be the one they highlight:

Schwarzenegger has garnered more Hispanic support than most Republican governors in the past two elections, despite some seemingly anti-immigration blunders — such as praising the Minutemen border militia group on a talk radio show.

Maybe it is because his hispanic support comes from people who are here LEGALLY and can VOTE LEGALLY, and realize that the illegals are tryign to jump the line.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

No one ever said that.

 

Hence the goofy smiley face.

[santo=dorf]

I'm confused by the term "legal immigrant." Is that what you righties call QP's dad? I noticed how she reffered to him as a "legal resident."

So essentially in America we have:

Born Citizens

citizens by naturalization

legal residents

and illegal immigrants.

 

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong up until this point.

 

Why is it always the assumption that the illegal immigrants don't want to go through the process to become a citizen or legal resident and they just want to be some leach on society? Half of the illegals that snuck in here last year were due to overstaying on work or school visas. I'd argue that if they went through the trouble of getting a visa, they'd be willing to go through and get a legal document that allows them to be here. Just how difficult is it to obtain this documentation? QP said it took her father 6 years.

[EvilMonkey]

I'm confused by the term "legal immigrant." Is that what you righties call QP's dad? I noticed how she reffered to him as a "legal resident."

So essentially in America we have:

Born Citizens

citizens by naturalization

legal residents

and illegal immigrants.

 

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong up until this point.

 

Why is it always the assumption that the illegal immigrants don't want to go through the process to become a citizen or legal resident and they just want to be some leach on society? Half of the illegals that snuck in here last year were due to overstaying on work or school visas. I'd argue that if they went through the trouble of getting a visa, they'd be willing to go through and get a legal document that allows them to be here. Just how difficult is it to obtain this documentation? QP said it took her father 6 years.

The assumption is that they don't want to play by the same rules as everyone else and 'jump the line' by coming here illegally. In the current amnesty bill, illegals get preferential treatment for citizenship over the people who played by the rules are are still waiting. And many of the work visa people purposly overstay or had no intention of going back. I will agree that the process for coming here legally needs to be streamlined, but at the same time, it needs to be made harder to come here, and stay, illegally.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Harsher teeth in the laws (and enforcement) for the companies that hire them and pay them below minimum wages > punishing the individual illegals.

 

Take out a demand and the supply goes down. See a lefty understands economics!

 

And oh yes, to the mention of leafblowers -- Is there anything more futile?

[kapkomet]

Harsher teeth in the laws (and enforcement) for the companies that hire them and pay them below minimum wages > punishing the individual illegals.

 

Take out a demand and the supply goes down. See a lefty understands economics!

 

And oh yes, to the mention of leafblowers -- Is there anything more futile?

That is very true. And it does need to happen. BUT Congress doesn't need to do their fricking dirty work.

[EvilMonkey]

Harsher teeth in the laws (and enforcement) for the companies that hire them and pay them below minimum wages > punishing the individual illegals.

 

Take out a demand and the supply goes down. See a lefty understands economics!

 

And oh yes, to the mention of leafblowers -- Is there anything more futile?

I'm all for busting the businesses that knowingly hire illegals. Nail them to the wall. And deport the illegals they catch while you are at it.

[southsider2k5]

Harsher teeth in the laws (and enforcement) for the companies that hire them and pay them below minimum wages > punishing the individual illegals.

 

Take out a demand and the supply goes down. See a lefty understands economics!

 

And oh yes, to the mention of leafblowers -- Is there anything more futile?

 

 

I'm all for busting the businesses that knowingly hire illegals. Nail them to the wall. And deport the illegals they catch while you are at it.

 

I've said all along, if you take away the incentive to come here illegally, then the illegals quit coming here. If companies knew they would get hit in the pocketbooks, they would damned well make sure they were hiring legal workers.

 

I’ve yet to see an unbiased, official study done to find out what the real numbers are, and I have a feeling that’ll never happen. I can see how it would be difficult when having to factor in the contributions of their labor, spending as consumers and taxes on their purchases, true numbers of the social services illegal immigrants themselves use, taxes they do pay, etc., but I would think it would be beneficial to do so. Maybe someday…

Of course cost and distance are the determining factors. And I’m sure you knew that too. Your great sympathy and wanting to bring more immigrants in danger in war-torn countries is interesting, though…

Of course if it doesn't agree it must be biased. The really interesting thing is even the "unbiased" studies out there, don't take into account the HUGE cost that will be added to our tax base when amnesty is granted to 12,000,000 more people. People want to panic about the cost of social programs and the budget deficit now, try adding at least 12 million people to those numbers...

Hispanics doing yardwork?? Must all be illegal. Damn those lazy Hispanic illegal immigrants and there unsatisfactory pace…

I’m with you on that. Only those born and bred in the good ol’ U S of A deserve to work there way up and prosper. Americans are worth so much more than non-Americans…

 

Which I still have wondered about for a while. Why is it that only non-Americans can work menial and "undesirable" work? No one wants to call it racist when they want to import Mexicans to work our undesirable jobs, but it is racist when another group doesn't think illegal behavior should be rewarded... I don't get that.

No, no, no. Why shed light on the root of the problem when stereotyping and degrading illegal immigrants is so much more fun?? (And no, I am not directing this towards anyone here in particular.)

 

Because it is much more fun to stereotype the people who think that laws actually mean something.

 

More should be done to strike this problem at its root, i.e. the government and businesses/corporations who allow this illegal immigration problem to grow and become worse because of how they profit from it, rather than the slandering and degradation of Hispanics and illegal immigrants.

Some of the kids of Hispanic immigrants don’t even speak much Spanish.

 

I see their assimilation as no different than any other ethnicity or culture that has come throughout the years. And in certain aspects, since Hispanic culture already shares some similarities with ours, prossibly quicker than the assimilation of those from cultures and ethnicities farther away that are much more different.

 

You hit on a good point here, but miss another. There is one big difference to the way people are coming to the country now, and that is they are breaking the laws. People have always assimilated into our culture in the second and third generation of immigrants, but that has nothing to do with following the laws of the land. Things have changed, and immigration should reflect that. When the country was perpetually expanding you had room, jobs, and wages for everyone. Now with the emphasis on profits, if you import labor, you hurt the people who are already here. Trust me I see everyday in my own hometown, people who only have blue collar skills, who are crowded out of the labor market, because there are other people who are willing to work for below minimum wage costs. Should American's be punished for following our own laws?

[mr_genius]

Harsher teeth in the laws (and enforcement) for the companies that hire them and pay them below minimum wages > punishing the individual illegals.

 

thats two posts in two days i agree with...

Edited June 16, 2007 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

Of course if it doesn't agree it must be biased. The really interesting thing is even the "unbiased" studies out there, don't take into account the HUGE cost that will be added to our tax base when amnesty is granted to 12,000,000 more people. People want to panic about the cost of social programs and the budget deficit now, try adding at least 12 million people to those numbers...

You keep harping on this fact without acknowledging the other side to it; it's not exactly cheap to do anything else to fix the problem either. It's not exactly cheap to turn 15 million people into refugees. It's not exactly cheap to replace 10 million workers with higher paid employees overnight.

 

The longer we sit here harping about this without coming up with some sort of fix, the more it's going to cost, because the more people there will be.

[kapkomet]

You keep harping on this fact without acknowledging the other side to it; it's not exactly cheap to do anything else to fix the problem either. It's not exactly cheap to turn 15 million people into refugees. It's not exactly cheap to replace 10 million workers with higher paid employees overnight.

 

The longer we sit here harping about this without coming up with some sort of fix, the more it's going to cost, because the more people there will be.

It's a hell of a lot cheaper then letting all these people (and their family extensions if you read one version of the bill) in our country to soak off of already dying social programs...

[southsideirish71]

God my parents had it all wrong. Instead of the long process of coming over here legally, becoming a citizen and all. My father should of snuck my mother over the border right before my birth. She should of had me somewhere within the US and poof I am a US citizen. That would of saved some time and some paper work. My god do you realize the amount of money we could of saved in taxes by not having to pay them. I wouldnt of had to pay any medical insurance all this time. That plus free schools would of been killer. Now granted we would of felt guilty when we stole someone elses identity and all so we could have social security information to fake like we were here free.

 

I am going to yell at my father for wasting the families money, and wasting our time going through all that to get citizenship. God we could of been here scott free, and then just paid a small fee and boom everything is taken back.

[NorthSideSox72]

illegal immigrants do all the dirty jobs that most citizens want to have no part of doing. They work harder than anyone who posts on this message board and get paid a helluva lot less all for the hope that life can be better for their family and a better future for their kids..... so yes I think arresting all of them is utter bulls***.

Right there in bold, one of the biggest logical fallacies in this debate. This drives me nuts. Are you actually trying to tell me that somehow, because they are not here legally, they are magically empowered with a better work ethic than the LEGAL immigrants doing the same jobs? And further, that this somehow justifies breaking the law?

[kapkomet]

Right there in bold, one of the biggest logical fallacies in this debate. This drives me nuts. Are you actually trying to tell me that somehow, because they are not here legally, they are magically empowered with a better work ethic than the LEGAL immigrants doing the same jobs? And further, that this somehow justifies breaking the law?

Good catch.

[GoodAsGould]

Right there in bold, one of the biggest logical fallacies in this debate. This drives me nuts. Are you actually trying to tell me that somehow, because they are not here legally, they are magically empowered with a better work ethic than the LEGAL immigrants doing the same jobs? And further, that this somehow justifies breaking the law?

 

Im saying that the jobs that they get and the hours they have to put in to making a living is more work than most people that are citizens of the USA ever have to deal with. And than i made the comment about the message board because everyone who posts on a whitesox site has a computer available to them and internet plus its highly likely have cable tv to watch the games. Than majority of these posters probably like to attend a few games when possible. An illegal immigrant working more hours per week than most of us doesnt have the money to afford all that.

[Steff]

Im saying that the jobs that they get and the hours they have to put in to making a living is more work than most people that are citizens of the USA ever have to deal with. And than i made the comment about the message board because everyone who posts on a whitesox site has a computer available to them and internet plus its highly likely have cable tv to watch the games. Than majority of these posters probably like to attend a few games when possible. An illegal immigrant working more hours per week than most of us doesnt have the money to afford all that.

 

Umm.. it's because my husband and I DO work insane amounts of hours that we have the $ to spend on Sox tickets, live in a nice house (that we rarely see since were at work ALL the time), and nice cars to drive.

[kapkomet]

Umm.. it's because my husband and I DO work insane amounts of hours that we have the $ to spend on Sox tickets, live in a nice house (that we rarely see since were at work ALL the time), and nice cars to drive.

Nah, you're just spoiled and have stuff handed to you.

 

People do have to work for what they get, by and large. I know I've had to work my ass off for what I have, and I have to work VERY hard to keep it. And, that's not just money, by the way. Life's hard. Get used to it. But if I have to work hard, I might as well enjoy what I do have ... because I've had to work very hard to get it.