This is why we have an illegal immigration problem.

[EvilMonkey]

[StrangeSox]

I'll tell you, BushCo is SO wrong on this, and it's just about trumping everything else he may be "right" on.

 

This ain't Texas, Dubya. Get your head out of your ass!

 

There wasn't much to begin with.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/28/imm...ress/index.html

 

I'm getting really sick of the language used by some of the supporters of this bill in government. They talk as if this is the only possible solution to the problem. This bill is what "immigration reform" is, so either pass this or we'll never be able to do anything. Bulls***. Come up with REAL immigration reform that realistically deals with illegals already here, completely overhauls the immigration process, and, most importantly, protects the borders.

[EvilMonkey]

There wasn't much to begin with.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/28/imm...ress/index.html

 

I'm getting really sick of the language used by some of the supporters of this bill in government. They talk as if this is the only possible solution to the problem. This bill is what "immigration reform" is, so either pass this or we'll never be able to do anything. Bulls***. Come up with REAL immigration reform that realistically deals with illegals already here, completely overhauls the immigration process, and, most importantly, protects the borders.

If they had any balls they would break it into pieces and pass the bill, or not, one item at a time. the idea that it needs to be one, huge comprehensive bill is just assanine, and just used so they can TRY and hide all the different loopholes they want.

[southsider2k5]

If they had any balls they would break it into pieces and pass the bill, or not, one item at a time. the idea that it needs to be one, huge comprehensive bill is just assanine, and just used so they can TRY and hide all the different loopholes they want.

 

That might be the best post in this whole thread.

[NorthSideSox72]

If they had any balls they would break it into pieces and pass the bill, or not, one item at a time. the idea that it needs to be one, huge comprehensive bill is just assanine, and just used so they can TRY and hide all the different loopholes they want.

Yup.

[StrangeSox]

If they had any balls they would break it into pieces and pass the bill, or not, one item at a time. the idea that it needs to be one, huge comprehensive bill is just assanine, and just used so they can TRY and hide all the different loopholes they want.

 

I think you and I are in complete agreement on this one.

[NorthSideSox72]

The bill is dead. Again.

[kapkomet]

Thank goodness.

 

And f*** you, Lindsey Grahm... and Harry Reid, and most important, Dubya... next time, listen to your constituents.

 

The other thing is, GET RID OF THE DEMAND... in other words, PUNISH THE CRAP out of companies that are using this illegal labor. They are more the problem then the people here. If the people can't work because there's no jobs for them (i.e. people have to be LEGAL), then guess what? They'll go home, because there's nothing for them here. The problem of "rounding them up" suddenly goes away. Imagine that.

[EvilMonkey]

[Texsox]

Thank goodness.

 

And f*** you, Lindsey Grahm... and Harry Reid, and most important, Dubya... next time, listen to your constituents.

 

The other thing is, GET RID OF THE DEMAND... in other words, PUNISH THE CRAP out of companies that are using this illegal labor. They are more the problem then the people here. If the people can't work because there's no jobs for them (i.e. people have to be LEGAL), then guess what? They'll go home, because there's nothing for them here. The problem of "rounding them up" suddenly goes away. Imagine that.

 

It's a no win for many of those companies. With excellent forged documents so readily available, the could be getting punished for being a victim.

 

And if you owned the business who would you rather hire? Someone who risks their lives for the job or someone who you finally got to accept the job because you raised the wages high enough? We need a bill that ties immigration levels to job growth. Unemployment rates have been low for decades and there are still illegals entering this country. It's simple supply meeting demand. If unemployment was higher I could see the argument. But an accountant isn't going to accept a $10 per hour job, he will continue to look for suitable employment.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

It's a no win for many of those companies. With excellent forged documents so readily available, the could be getting punished for being a victim.

 

And if you owned the business who would you rather hire? Someone who risks their lives for the job or someone who you finally got to accept the job because you raised the wages high enough? We need a bill that ties immigration levels to job growth. Unemployment rates have been low for decades and there are still illegals entering this country. It's simple supply meeting demand. If unemployment was higher I could see the argument. But an accountant isn't going to accept a $10 per hour job, he will continue to look for suitable employment.

 

 

Yeah. Tie LEGAL immigration to job growth. Stopping ILLEGAL immigration needs to be done first.

[Texsox]

Yeah. Tie LEGAL immigration to job growth. Stopping ILLEGAL immigration needs to be done first.

 

Of course. But they are here because of demand, as a country, it is in our best interest to make certain that we respond in our best interest, not what is politically popular today. We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face by just deporting 12,000,000 WORKERS and their families. The businesses will suffer and so will we.

 

Put in a plan that fills the needs of American business and controls the number of immigrants, I'm more in favor of reducing the H1B VISA program and creating more high end jobs for Americans than trying to push low end jobs on Americans. Our education system is better than that.

[EvilMonkey]

Of course. But they are here because of demand, as a country, it is in our best interest to make certain that we respond in our best interest, not what is politically popular today. We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face by just deporting 12,000,000 WORKERS and their families. The businesses will suffer and so will we.

 

Put in a plan that fills the needs of American business and controls the number of immigrants, I'm more in favor of reducing the H1B VISA program and creating more high end jobs for Americans than trying to push low end jobs on Americans. Our education system is better than that.

But are they here because there were jobs for them, or are there jobs for them because they are here?

[kapkomet]

Of course. But they are here because of demand, as a country, it is in our best interest to make certain that we respond in our best interest, not what is politically popular today. We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face by just deporting 12,000,000 WORKERS and their families. The businesses will suffer and so will we.

 

Put in a plan that fills the needs of American business and controls the number of immigrants, I'm more in favor of reducing the H1B VISA program and creating more high end jobs for Americans than trying to push low end jobs on Americans. Our education system is better than that.

Too f***ing bad, re: the businesses hiring ILLEGAL workers. That's more of the problem.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Of course. But they are here because of demand, as a country, it is in our best interest to make certain that we respond in our best interest, not what is politically popular today. We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face by just deporting 12,000,000 WORKERS and their families. The businesses will suffer and so will we.

 

Put in a plan that fills the needs of American business and controls the number of immigrants, I'm more in favor of reducing the H1B VISA program and creating more high end jobs for Americans than trying to push low end jobs on Americans. Our education system is better than that.

 

 

In this case, business NEEDS to suffer. They openly flout the laws of this country all in the name of profit and saddle the rest of us with the burden of providing these criminals with social services.

[southsider2k5]

Of course. But they are here because of demand, as a country, it is in our best interest to make certain that we respond in our best interest, not what is politically popular today. We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face by just deporting 12,000,000 WORKERS and their families. The businesses will suffer and so will we.

 

Put in a plan that fills the needs of American business and controls the number of immigrants, I'm more in favor of reducing the H1B VISA program and creating more high end jobs for Americans than trying to push low end jobs on Americans. Our education system is better than that.

 

The demand and work stuff is getting silly for me. There are how many drug dealers and gangs are making a living in this country, should we open up the borders to cocaine and heroin too? Just because people are trying to make a buck, should it excuse and illegal activity? If a guy was selling child pornography to get some money, would you be OK with that too? Would it be any better if he was taking that money and sending it back to support his wife and kids? Somehow I doubt it.

 

I also don't agree with the assumption that just because people are American's that they are somehow better than people who aren't when it comes to the jobs they can work. To me that is racist. I don't see why American's can do any job that their skill set dictates. Now I know you will fire back with the cute little line about my kids picking oranges, or something like that, but if that is what they are best suited to do, there is no shame in working for a living. If they don't want to do a blue collar job for a living, they can stay in school and do something else. To me they aren't any better than someone else just because of where they were born. I won't buy into the zenophobic attitude that American's can't work for a living, while forgeiners are the ones who have to do these jobs. It reeks of a caste attitude.

 

In this case, business NEEDS to suffer. They openly flout the laws of this country all in the name of profit and saddle the rest of us with the burden of providing these criminals with social services.

 

Which is another irony in this debate. People throw huge fits about the amount of corporate welfare dolled out by the government, aka the taxpayers, in this country. Now there is the chance to cut down probably the biggest corporate welfare program of all, illegal immigration, and give the natural wages in many of the onerous industries a chance to rise, along with benefits to attract willing employees. Instead many are perfectly willing to let exploitation reign here, and are willing to pay for it. The sad thing is that in one case people who are American citizens benefit by and large, and in the other, people who are not citizens benefit... Guess which ideal has a larger popularity rating? Strange.

[Texsox]

We have one of the best education systems in the world. It isn't racist to believe that 12 years in this system will qualify someone for a better job than someone who was educated in a third world country.

 

Currently over one hundred shrimp boats are sitting in harbor and not fishing because the Labor department is now refusing the work visas they have approved in the past. There are jobs for almost a thousand people. It is for four weeks and required you to live on board the boat. Ads have been placed in newspapers all over the country and almost no takers. Meanwhile, the workers who have been working those jobs for decades are sitting 25 miles away, in Mexico, ready and willing to work.

 

The American shrimpers and screwed, each boat carries about $40,000 in fuel so the fuel companies are screwed, wholesalers who really on those shrimp are screwed, truckers, etc.

 

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/shri...ers_season.html

 

Is this what you want? Where are the American workers willing to work for three weeks for damn good pay?

[NorthSideSox72]

We have one of the best education systems in the world. It isn't racist to believe that 12 years in this system will qualify someone for a better job than someone who was educated in a third world country.

 

Currently over one hundred shrimp boats are sitting in harbor and not fishing because the Labor department is now refusing the work visas they have approved in the past. There are jobs for almost a thousand people. It is for four weeks and required you to live on board the boat. Ads have been placed in newspapers all over the country and almost no takers. Meanwhile, the workers who have been working those jobs for decades are sitting 25 miles away, in Mexico, ready and willing to work.

 

The American shrimpers and screwed, each boat carries about $40,000 in fuel so the fuel companies are screwed, wholesalers who really on those shrimp are screwed, truckers, etc.

 

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/shri...ers_season.html

 

Is this what you want? Where are the American workers willing to work for three weeks for damn good pay?

That isn't an argument for allowing illegal immigration - its an argument for changing immigration policy to fit economic need, which I would love to see.

 

[Texsox]

That isn't an argument for allowing illegal immigration - its an argument for changing immigration policy to fit economic need, which I would love to see.

 

And exactly what I have been arguing. Tying immigration to jobs. Trying to replace 10,000,000 workers tomorrow would be a disaster. If the illegal has been holding down a job, not committing any other crimes than crossing illegally, allow him/her a path to stay legally. No job, committing crimes, adios senor.

 

And back to SS's comments about it's racist to mention the jobs that illegals are working. Looking at where we catch illegals. Meat packing plants, dangerous manufacturing jobs, agriculture, restaurants. All low demand jobs. When I see ads for these jobs in my local newspaper for plants all over the US, that tells me that

1. Most Americans do not desire these jobs

and

2. Illegals fill that void in the work force.

I'm not certain how that conclusion would be considered racist.

[longshot7]

Wow, it's a WEIRD day when I agree with Nuke. And I wholeheartedly do.

 

Enforcement First.

[Texsox]

Wow, it's a WEIRD day when I agree with Nuke. And I wholeheartedly do.

 

Enforcement First.

 

As in deport them all, and find millions of replacement workers? Unlimited budget for deportations? Should we raise taxes to pay for the enforcement and offer businesses help in locating workers?

[kapkomet]

As in deport them all, and find millions of replacement workers? Unlimited budget for deportations? Should we raise taxes to pay for the enforcement and offer businesses help in locating workers?

NO. For goodness sake, there are other means besides deporting them all... and then going to the other extreme of making them all citizens.

[Texsox]

NO. For goodness sake, there are other means besides deporting them all... and then going to the other extreme of making them all citizens.

 

I am with you there. Some should be deported. Like I said, no job/family support, commit other crimes, and adios. Businesses that knowingly employed them, I have no concern for. It's the companies that received forged documents and employed these individuals that I do not think should be punished.

 

I also do not believe we have to offer those that came illegally full citizenship. Perhaps those that follow legally should have that path, and possibly even their children, but we do not owe that to them.

 

And let's make certain we have a system that ties immigration to jobs. No jobs, no immigration.

[kapkomet]

I am with you there. Some should be deported. Like I said, no job/family support, commit other crimes, and adios. Businesses that knowingly employed them, I have no concern for. It's the companies that received forged documents and employed these individuals that I do not think should be punished.

 

I also do not believe we have to offer those that came illegally full citizenship. Perhaps those that follow legally should have that path, and possibly even their children, but we do not owe that to them.

 

And let's make certain we have a system that ties immigration to jobs. No jobs, no immigration.

 

Wrong Again. Come on Tex. Quit dreaming.

 

 

[Controlled Chaos]

Can we use minimum security prisoners to do some of these jobs? Is that an option?