This is why we have an illegal immigration problem.

[Middle Buffalo]

Couple points I disagree with. Economics is one reason people want to come here, but isn't this the land of opportunity? Don't we want to be that shining beacon of hope around the land? Freedom, the good life, etc. Or is the American dream dead? There are a lot more than 12,000,000 wanting to move to the US.

 

Amnesty means different things to different people. If you are saying no instant citizenship, I'm with you. If you are saying no path to full, legal status, ever, I disagree. If you have been living here and leading a good life, your neighbors like you, you've been working regularly, the cops do not know you, I'd rather you stay then take what's behind door number one, two, or three.

Ironically, many of the people who are most outraged by the US illegal immigration problem are in favor of the war in Iraq. A war that we are fighting (it's been said) in order to give the Iraqi citizens all of the rights and liberties that we hold so dear in this country. Why don't we want to extend this great gift of freedom and the American way to all people?

[Texsox]

Ironically, many of the people who are most outraged by the US illegal immigration problem are in favor of the war in Iraq. A war that we are fighting (it's been said) in order to give the Iraqi citizens all of the rights and liberties that we hold so dear in this country. Why don't we want to extend this great gift of freedom and the American way to all people?

 

Because we don't want them here

[Middle Buffalo]

Because we don't want them here

Oh, that makes sense. We should definitely concentrate most our resources into building up countries that are not close to the US.

[Texsox]

Oh, that makes sense. We should definitely concentrate most our resources into building up countries that are not close to the US.

 

[kapkomet]

Ironically, many of the people who are most outraged by the US illegal immigration problem are in favor of the war in Iraq. A war that we are fighting (it's been said) in order to give the Iraqi citizens all of the rights and liberties that we hold so dear in this country. Why don't we want to extend this great gift of freedom and the American way to all people?

No one has said in this thread they don't want them here. What we HAVE said is that we want them here LEGALLY, or GO HOME. Big difference. I'm fine with a real program that doesn't give them a path to citizenship. If they come here legally, and then apply for citizenship, great! More power to them at that point.

[EvilMonkey]

Poor people shouldn't breed? I'm not going there. I'll just add one counter thought. Why punish the children?

You may not WANT to go there, but that is a huge part of the problem. Yes, if poor people cannot even feed and care for themselves, they should not be bringing more mouths into the world that need help. That is a form of child abuse. This isn't Africa, where the Dinka tribemen have 20 children because this way 2 or 3 will survive, and hopefully some will be sons to help with the farm. If you are living in Mexico, have no job, live in a shack with bugs and have to scrounge for your daily food, what right do you have to bring another mouth into this world to feed? Oh, thats ok, we'll just pack up and cross the border where we can live in crappy, but better conditions illegally, and let the US take care of our health care needs and whatever else we can get away with. Land of milk and honey, here we come! The world's safety net! Oh boy! hey hunny, let's have 4 more kids once we get there, then we will have our 'anchor' and can stay!

[Texsox]

The drive to reproduce is deeply embedded in every animal I've studied. Some will find religious implications, some will just call it a biological fact. To stop poor people from reproducing is as ethically distasteful to me as stopping people with brown hair or below average intelligence. Perhaps to make it easier for them we could force sterilization on poor people?

[EvilMonkey]

The drive to reproduce is deeply embedded in every animal I've studied. Some will find religious implications, some will just call it a biological fact. To stop poor people from reproducing is as ethically distasteful to me as stopping people with brown hair or below average intelligence. Perhaps to make it easier for them we could force sterilization on poor people?

I didn't say WE need to make them stop, they need to stop themselves. Tex, how come you don't have 30 kids? because you would go broke feeding them all. (plus, you would have to find a woman who would WANT to be pregnant for her whole adult life!). Somewhere you reached a limit where you had enough, and that limit probably coincided with the amount of people your family could support, whether that be monitarily or committment-wise, or both. I don't care what color you are, if you can't even take care of yourself, you shouldn't have kids. And that religious or biological answer is bulls***. It is just plain self-centered crap that because they WANT a baby, they should HAVE a baby. Well, if you have the child, take care of the child, don't force it on the rest of the world to support your vanity in having a child you couldn't care for, because you WANTED it. Condoms are cheaper than kids. They also talk back less, don't demand an allowance and won't crash the car after getting their drivers license.

[BigSqwert]

The poor having too many children isn't a Mexican problem. It's a problem globally, including right here in the states...with American citizens.

[kapkomet]

The poor having too many children isn't a Mexican problem. It's a problem globally, including right here in the states...with American citizens.

That it is.

 

[southsider2k5]

I agree with 80% of your post.

 

Couple points I disagree with. Economics is one reason people want to come here, but isn't this the land of opportunity? Don't we want to be that shining beacon of hope around the land? Freedom, the good life, etc. Or is the American dream dead? There are a lot more than 12,000,000 wanting to move to the US.

 

Amnesty means different things to different people. If you are saying no instant citizenship, I'm with you. If you are saying no path to full, legal status, ever, I disagree. If you have been living here and leading a good life, your neighbors like you, you've been working regularly, the cops do not know you, I'd rather you stay then take what's behind door number one, two, or three.

 

Poor people shouldn't breed? I'm not going there. I'll just add one counter thought. Why punish the children?

 

Down here, the majority of people are bilingual. When I travel in Mexico or Europe, English was almost always spoken as well as the native languages. Why are Americans the most afraid of people who speak a different language? There isn't a transaction here, public or private that couldn't be conducted in Spanish, and I just don't see a problem.

 

Well according to most of the candidates from one particular party, things are incredibly bad for the people that are here already. There are no jobs, there is a horrible education system, the health system is crashing, the enviornment is dying, and so on and so forth, and that is just with the people who are already here. What would adding say another 10% of our population in poor people do to those failing systems?

 

People who just assume since we had massive immigrations in the past, that we should be able to do it easily again, aren't paying very close attention to their history. Things have changed a wee bit in the US in the last 100-150 years or so. Remember, we have had a massive expansion of the Federal Government, and the role they play in people's lives, especially the lower classes of Americans. For example, during the Irish potato famine in the 19th century, there was no such thing as welfare, unemployment, medicare, medicade, social security, public education, earned income credit, etc. There also was no such thing as an income tax until the early 20th century. In other words it made no difference how many people you shoved in to the ghettos of New York, because the general poplulace felt no effect either way of millions of new immigrants. Today is a different story. As I have sited before in many posts, the bottom 40% of tax payers pay none, to actually profiting from our income tax system. This is before the cost of social services are even factored in. Its not like we are talking about the same situation as our past. No one wants to talk about how to pay for this. I have yet to see anyone, on either side of the aisle address this issue, at all. In fact many of the same people screaming about the current state of our country, are trying to add more people for the US to care for. Tell me, when your paycheck is stretched tight, do you go out and do the neighbors grocery shopping to while you are at it? Somehow I doubt it.

[Texsox]

I didn't say WE need to make them stop, they need to stop themselves. Tex, how come you don't have 30 kids? because you would go broke feeding them all. (plus, you would have to find a woman who would WANT to be pregnant for her whole adult life!). Somewhere you reached a limit where you had enough, and that limit probably coincided with the amount of people your family could support, whether that be monitarily or committment-wise, or both. I don't care what color you are, if you can't even take care of yourself, you shouldn't have kids. And that religious or biological answer is bulls***. It is just plain self-centered crap that because they WANT a baby, they should HAVE a baby. Well, if you have the child, take care of the child, don't force it on the rest of the world to support your vanity in having a child you couldn't care for, because you WANTED it. Condoms are cheaper than kids. They also talk back less, don't demand an allowance and won't crash the car after getting their drivers license.

 

You have stated your case nicely, I will stop here. I find the right to reproduce an absolute for humans. You reduce it to a financial decision.

 

So are you in favor of eliminating WIC, financial aid, public supported day care programs, public schools? We support children in dozens of different ways. You are complaining that we feed them, when we also will pay for their college? GMAB.

[Texsox]

Well according to most of the candidates from one particular party, things are incredibly bad for the people that are here already. There are no jobs, there is a horrible education system, the health system is crashing, the enviornment is dying, and so on and so forth, and that is just with the people who are already here. What would adding say another 10% of our population in poor people do to those failing systems?

 

People who just assume since we had massive immigrations in the past, that we should be able to do it easily again, aren't paying very close attention to their history. Things have changed a wee bit in the US in the last 100-150 years or so. Remember, we have had a massive expansion of the Federal Government, and the role they play in people's lives, especially the lower classes of Americans. For example, during the Irish potato famine in the 19th century, there was no such thing as welfare, unemployment, medicare, medicade, social security, public education, earned income credit, etc. There also was no such thing as an income tax until the early 20th century. In other words it made no difference how many people you shoved in to the ghettos of New York, because the general poplulace felt no effect either way of millions of new immigrants. Today is a different story. As I have sited before in many posts, the bottom 40% of tax payers pay none, to actually profiting from our income tax system. This is before the cost of social services are even factored in. Its not like we are talking about the same situation as our past. No one wants to talk about how to pay for this. I have yet to see anyone, on either side of the aisle address this issue, at all. In fact many of the same people screaming about the current state of our country, are trying to add more people for the US to care for. Tell me, when your paycheck is stretched tight, do you go out and do the neighbors grocery shopping to while you are at it? Somehow I doubt it.

 

We are importing software engineers, Doctors, etc.

 

As far as the lowest paying jobs in this country, the economic impact of those jobs is the same if we have an immigrant working the job, or a citizen. The only way to lessen the economic hit is to employ an undocumented worker who will not apply for benefits, and no one wants that anymore. When Dems tried to raise the minimum wage, Reps went nuts, it will kill the business owner. Then when we start talking about how these lowest paying jobs do not contribute to the tax base, in fact they pull from it, no one has an answer.

 

SS, here's the point that you have never addressed, what is the economic difference difference between

 

Joe American working a landscape job earning $14,000 per year

Juan New Legal Immigrant working the same job?

[southsider2k5]

We are importing software engineers, Doctors, etc.

 

As far as the lowest paying jobs in this country, the economic impact of those jobs is the same if we have an immigrant working the job, or a citizen. The only way to lessen the economic hit is to employ an undocumented worker who will not apply for benefits, and no one wants that anymore. When Dems tried to raise the minimum wage, Reps went nuts, it will kill the business owner. Then when we start talking about how these lowest paying jobs do not contribute to the tax base, in fact they pull from it, no one has an answer.

 

SS, here's the point that you have never addressed, what is the economic difference difference between

 

Joe American working a landscape job earning $14,000 per year

Juan New Legal Immigrant working the same job?

 

The vast majority of illegal immigrants are people who are leaving bad situations. If they were rich, they probably wouldn't be coming here in the first place. Now, granted there are exceptions, but people who are leaving good situations are also the ones who can afford to go through the legal means to get here, so they aren't people who usually would factor into the 12 million people that are being discussed.

 

Now I did notice you instantly turned this into a racial thing, why is that? If you want to discuss an issue that is one thing, but race baiting is played out.

[kapkomet]

We are importing software engineers, Doctors, etc.

 

As far as the lowest paying jobs in this country, the economic impact of those jobs is the same if we have an immigrant working the job, or a citizen. The only way to lessen the economic hit is to employ an undocumented worker who will not apply for benefits, and no one wants that anymore. When Dems tried to raise the minimum wage, Reps went nuts, it will kill the business owner. Then when we start talking about how these lowest paying jobs do not contribute to the tax base, in fact they pull from it, no one has an answer.

 

SS, here's the point that you have never addressed, what is the economic difference difference between

 

Joe American working a landscape job earning $14,000 per year

Juan New Legal Immigrant working the same job?

Really?

 

 

[Texsox]

The vast majority of illegal immigrants are people who are leaving bad situations. If they were rich, they probably wouldn't be coming here in the first place. Now, granted there are exceptions, but people who are leaving good situations are also the ones who can afford to go through the legal means to get here, so they aren't people who usually would factor into the 12 million people that are being discussed.

 

Now I did notice you instantly turned this into a racial thing, why is that? If you want to discuss an issue that is one thing, but race baiting is played out.

 

Not a race thing.

 

What is the difference between a new immigrant working a $14,000 year job and a citizen. What additional benefits does an immigrant take that a citizen would not?

 

We agree that the working poor consume more in benefits then they contribute. I just have never seen a difference between a lifelong citizen and a new immigrant in the economic impact.

[Texsox]

Really?

 

yep.

[EvilMonkey]

You have stated your case nicely, I will stop here. I find the right to reproduce an absolute for humans. You reduce it to a financial decision.

 

So are you in favor of eliminating WIC, financial aid, public supported day care programs, public schools? We support children in dozens of different ways. You are complaining that we feed them, when we also will pay for their college? GMAB.

Yes, you have the right to reproduce. But you then have an obligation to take care of that offspring. If you can't do that, why reproduce? As a country, we generally help out the poor where we can (WIC, day care, etc.). Why should we also help out the poor from other countries? You act like the financial aspect of this doesn't matter, but it does. healthcare is in crisis, and every illegal and every poor and/or uninsured person that gets medical treatment just runs it further in the ground. Schools are constantly screaming for more money and overcrowding. lets just add a few million more illegals, and hire some extra spanish speaking teachers to help the new illegal students. Traffic sucks as it is, lets just add a few million more people on the roads that can't even read the english on the street signs, or are without insurance. College costs are thru the roof, even with student loans and other programs, lets just dilute that pool even further by allowing a boatload of illegals to enjoy that small amount aid. Children cost money. You can't feed them with love, and all the nurturing in the world won't change a stinky diaper.

[southsider2k5]

Not a race thing.

 

What is the difference between a new immigrant working a $14,000 year job and a citizen. What additional benefits does an immigrant take that a citizen would not?

 

We agree that the working poor consume more in benefits then they contribute. I just have never seen a difference between a lifelong citizen and a new immigrant in the economic impact.

 

So adding 12 million new people will not have an economic impact?

[Texsox]

So adding 12 million new people will not have an economic impact?

Let's set aside the 12,000,000 number. As already noted, many of these workers have social security numbers and are already in the system.

 

Of course it will. But how will filling those jobs with immigrants cost more than filling them with citizens?

[southsider2k5]

Of course it will. But how will filling those jobs with immigrants cost more than filling them with citizens?

 

Citizens are already here and factored into the equation. Illegals are here and not paid for. If they are legalized, they will be added to all of the federal programs they are able to receive. Why is that such a weird concept? If you have two children and pay their bills you have your budget. Then if your neighbor three kids decide to move in, and you decide to take care of them, you are now caring for five people, on basically the same budget. If you tell them to go back next door, then you are only paying for two people.

[Texsox]

Citizens are already here and factored into the equation. Illegals are here and not paid for. If they are legalized, they will be added to all of the federal programs they are able to receive. Why is that such a weird concept? If you have two children and pay their bills you have your budget. Then if your neighbor three kids decide to move in, and you decide to take care of them, you are now caring for five people, on basically the same budget. If you tell them to go back next door, then you are only paying for two people.

 

So you are not refering to workers, just the unemployed?

 

Where I am coming from is take those that are working, removing them and replacing them with citizens will not make a difference at all. When you talk about the bottom 4% of earners having a net income, I assume you were talking about workers ans in that situation it just doesn't matter.

 

I've never been for allowing people without means of support come here. All immigration should be tied to jobs.

[southsider2k5]

So you are not refering to workers, just the unemployed?

 

Where I am coming from is take those that are working, removing them and replacing them with citizens will not make a difference at all. When you talk about the bottom 4% of earners having a net income, I assume you were talking about workers ans in that situation it just doesn't matter.

 

I've never been for allowing people without means of support come here. All immigration should be tied to jobs.

 

There are a ton of government programs out there. I detailed them a few posts ago. Illegals are not getting them. American citizens of the same bottom quartile economic situations are getting this aid.

 

Off of the top of my head, and obviously not all inclusive or that everyone is on all of these...

 

social security, unemployment, medicare, medicade, welfare, energy assistance, food stamps, public education, grant programs, earned income credit.

[BigSqwert]

This is a question out there for everyone because I really want to know the answer:

 

If all illegal immigrants were shipped off tomorrow how do you think your life or lifestyle will change?

 

 

 

 

[Texsox]

There are a ton of government programs out there. I detailed them a few posts ago. Illegals are not getting them. American citizens of the same bottom quartile economic situations are getting this aid.

 

Off of the top of my head, and obviously not all inclusive or that everyone is on all of these...

 

social security, unemployment, medicare, medicade, welfare, energy assistance, food stamps, public education, grant programs, earned income credit.

 

Actually illegals are receiving those benefits, you've said so before. You have stated, and I have agreed, that it is costing the US a considerable sum in aid to illegals working low income jobs. (Those with forged documents, etc.) The only illegals not receiving aid are the ones working jobs "off the books". Once we put those "on the books" and no matter who works them, it's going to cost us.

 

Perhaps this is when we cut back these programs for the working poor.