This is why we have an illegal immigration problem.

[Texsox]

^^^^^^^^

I really wish she would go away. BTW, she does not speak for most of the people down here who I personally know, and are pro-immigration reforms that allow undocumented workers to stay and earn legal status.

[sox4lifeinPA]

^^^^^^^^

I really wish she would go away. BTW, she does not speak for most of the people down here who I personally know, and are pro-immigration reforms that allow undocumented workers to stay and earn legal status.

 

and to make it worse, she's speaks in Yellow.

[Rex Kickass]

lol, "valid" and "it may not be theirs" doesn't fit. I have a valid bank account. It's filled with the money that I stole from people. But hey, the account is legal! And it's a correct statement to say that SOME illegals pay taxes. SOME being the key word. Out of the roughly 12 million, my guesstimation would be less than 500,000 do. That's a whole lot of tax revenue that we're missing out on, all while most of those millions have children who get free education and free health care. And who cares that other Americans don't report their income to the government? You know what happens to them when they get caught? They go to jail. The IRS doesn't say "oh hey, you didn't report your income because you have a family and you work hard. Bah, lets forget about it." And that's some poor logic. Just because Tommy does it too doesn't make it right.

The economy is strong enough to support a very very very small dip in the lost income from illegals. I'd bet most illegals shop at places like Wal-mart where they can consume lots of goods on the cheap. I'm guessing Wal-mart would be just fine if they lost that business.

Agree, but that doesn't mean we should just give people amnesty. There's a process of citizenship. You shouldn't be "rewarded" the rights that go with it just because you came over and had a kid.

I'd argue they put a bigger strain than most think, but that's because we have morons like Blago who think money grows on trees and the government (you and i, the taxpayer) should pay for everyones everything. But I agree with your last comment. The wall is a joke and massive deportation isn't a viable option either.

 

My solution: massive raids on any known illegal in the country. If they can prove they've been here, working, for more than two years, they can stay, so long as they pay every penny they owe to the system. The "fringe" illegals, those with families who might not work, or those who are here working but for less than two years, get 6 months of temporary work visas to get their paperwork in order and start the process of citizenship (all while paying back what they owe to the government). Everyone else gets kicked out and has to stand in line. In conjunction with this massive sweep, the entire immigration process is revamped. It's ridiculous that it takes someone YEARS to be granted citizenship. Put the XXX millions we want to spend on building a stupid wall and hire some add'l staff for the naturalization offices around the country. Speed that process up and half of the problem of immigration would be solved.

 

Do you have any data to back up your guesstimation? Probably not, I'd guess. I was talking with a friend of mine who lives in Northwest Arkansas. He thinks that the number of hispanics in his corner of the world is 10 to 20% of the population - and most of them are illegally here. They work for meat packers. Same in Wilkesboro, NC - where I saw it with my own eyes. You stop the cheap labor force that powers the meatpacking industry and watch the price of food skyrocket.

 

If you don't want to have illegals here, fine. But if you're gonna target the illegal immigrants, target the companies who want them here too, like Tyson, Swift and a lot of the other meatpacking firms that knowingly hire illegals because then they don't have to worry about Workmen's comp when someone loses a finger or three or worse.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Do you have any data to back up your guesstimation? Probably not, I'd guess. I was talking with a friend of mine who lives in Northwest Arkansas. He thinks that the number of hispanics in his corner of the world is 10 to 20% of the population - and most of them are illegally here. They work for meat packers. Same in Wilkesboro, NC - where I saw it with my own eyes. You stop the cheap labor force that powers the meatpacking industry and watch the price of food skyrocket.

 

If you don't want to have illegals here, fine. But if you're gonna target the illegal immigrants, target the companies who want them here too, like Tyson, Swift and a lot of the other meatpacking firms that knowingly hire illegals because then they don't have to worry about Workmen's comp when someone loses a finger or three or worse.

 

I have no problem with the government going after businesses that hire illegals. That would help the process. My post was in opposition to people who think illegals are fine and that peope should relax because they're already a part of the system. That may be the case, but it doesn't make it right and it certaintly doesn't deserve the response of turning our heads and allowing such activity without some reprecussions.

 

 

[Texsox]

Whoa Jenks if that was a summary of my views, they are wrong.

 

I think we have to realistically look at the economic impact, and realize it is the wages that these jobs pay that determines the negative tax flow. No matter who works the job on the books, they receive more benefits then they pay for.

 

We have to differentiate between business that knowingly hired illegals and those that were duped by forgeries.

 

We have to accept that there are enough jobs out there to absorb these workers. Immigrants also have to accept no jobs, no immigration.

 

To remove millions of trained workers would cripple some businesses, cripple some industries, and cause prices to skyrocket in some key areas like agriculture and housing. IIRC, two areas that people do need.

[Jenksismyhero]

No it was a response to Middle Buffalo's post above. I think you and I agree on this issue.

[Texsox]

http://www.themonitor.com/news/workers_497...immigrants.html

 

From my local newspaper. We grow a whole lot of the food y'all eat. This is a serious problem facing the people who feed you.

 

More at link. What we need are thousands of people to drive on down to the Rio Grande Valley and start picking crops for a few weeks or months. Either leave everything behind or bring it with, but come on down and pick crops and then resume your life. The country needs you.

 

armers worry that local produce could rot in the fields because of a new crackdown on illegal immigrants.

 

In the Rio Grande Valley and across the country, agriculture industry officials are furious over a policy requiring employers to fire employees with Social Security numbers that don’t match names. It’s part of an attempt to cut down on the number illegal immigrants and punish employers who knowingly hire them.

 

The local agriculture industry is almost wholly dependent on illegal immigrants for intensive labor jobs and some estimate that more than 70 percent of field laborers are undocumented.

Farmers say the policy could mean fields and orchards of ripe produce would go unpicked because farmers won’t be able to find field workers during critical harvest months.

Immigrant advocates say the rule only makes it more difficult for well-meaning and hardworking undocumented workers to provide food for their families.

 

“This is a wicked blow at a time that the industry doesn’t need this kind of step taken,” said John McClung, president of the Texas Produce Association, an Edinburg-based group of produce growers, distributors and marketers.

 

Wide impact

 

In 2006, the total value for agricultural crops in the four-county Valley region topped $470.5 million, according to Texas Cooperative Extension statistics from the Texas Department of Agriculture. The citrus industry alone — mostly grapefruit and oranges — reaps $150 million to $200 million a year in the area.

 

Agriculture officials say the “no-match” program threatens that key part of the local economy and could affect other industries like construction and hotels.

 

Under the plan, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security would start enforcing the “no-match” rule, which has been in affect for years but rarely used.

 

The program requires the Social Security Administration to send the no-match letters to employers whose employee’s Social Security numbers don’t match with their names or say they can’t legally work in this country. The employer would then have 90 days to reconcile the data or fire the employees.

 

The rule targets undocumented workers using false or stolen Social Security numbers to secure jobs. Employers who don’t comply with the program could face fines.

 

But McClung said it puts employers in an unfair position of enforcing immigration policies.

“Speaking candidly, we need the labor anyway,” he said, noting that many Valley farmers are already facing a shortage in field laborers.

[Texsox]

The shortages have little to do with wages, Prewett said. It’s because the labor is difficult and at best only seasonal. Most legal citizens prefer stable and easier work and illegal immigrants are necessary to fill that void, Prewett said.

 

Field workers can make anywhere from the minimum wage of $5.85 an hour to more than $20 an hour because many jobs are based on performance, like filling baskets with fruit.

 

Good money, please encourage your kids to miss some school and pick some crops. We need to show the farmers that there is enough legal labor out there. Let's get the Minutemen to comedown for a few weeks and pick crops, they had time to protest.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I have no sympathy at all for farmers who rely on illegal immigrant labor. If they put being a legitimate business and paying a decent wage over their own profits then they would have no need for illegal immigrant labor.

[EvilMonkey]

Tex, once again you are jumping to extremes, assuming that those who don't want illegal immigration are also against migrant workers. I believe most, if not all, of the people on here that have spoken out against illegal immigration have spoken FOR some sort of a guest worker program, just not amnesty for those that are here illegally now. They have also spoken against the businesses that KNOWINGLY hire illegals. Your snarky replies about 'your children picking crops' are not relevant. Streamline the legalization process, impliment a guest worker program, and kick anyone out here illegally.

[Texsox]

I have no sympathy at all for farmers who rely on illegal immigrant labor. If they put being a legitimate business and paying a decent wage over their own profits then they would have no need for illegal immigrant labor.

 

$20 per hour isn't decent? I'm more concerned about American's being able to feed ourselves and not doubling our produce bills. Talk about inflation. People were concerned when gas went to three dollars, at least we could conserve, drive less, etc. And perhaps this would be a good thing when we have to cut down on food. I know farmers, it is probably about the worse business to own. How much new ladn do you see being plowed into farm fields versus how many homes are being built on farmland? We are already importing way too much of our food.

 

Alpha,

Read some of the replies concerning millions of *new* people crossing the borders. Read some of the replies talking about putting Americans to work. Here is a perfect opportunity. Come on down and work a month or two and make some great money.

 

Just pointing out that some people think this is way to simplistic. Food and shelter is pretty damn important to most Americans. Who do you know is willing to spend 10-12 hours a day, in the fields, picking fruits and vegetables? And this is after the farming industry was forced to offer such extravaganzas like bathrooms and hand washing in the fields.

[EvilMonkey]

$20 per hour isn't decent? I'm more concerned about American's being able to feed ourselves and not doubling our produce bills. Talk about inflation. People were concerned when gas went to three dollars, at least we could conserve, drive less, etc. And perhaps this would be a good thing when we have to cut down on food. I know farmers, it is probably about the worse business to own. How much new ladn do you see being plowed into farm fields versus how many homes are being built on farmland? We are already importing way too much of our food.

 

Alpha,

Read some of the replies concerning millions of *new* people crossing the borders. Read some of the replies talking about putting Americans to work. Here is a perfect opportunity. Come on down and work a month or two and make some great money.

 

Just pointing out that some people think this is way to simplistic. Food and shelter is pretty damn important to most Americans. Who do you know is willing to spend 10-12 hours a day, in the fields, picking fruits and vegetables? And this is after the farming industry was forced to offer such extravaganzas like bathrooms and hand washing in the fields.

Tex, I weeded bean fields 2 summers while in high school. I know it is tough work. And itchy, at least with the damn beans. That doesn't make it ok that people are breaking the law while others just pretend it doesn't happen. And the replies concerning 'new' people are for ILLEGAL new people. Farm industry need workers? Fine. Fix the damn guest worker program. I have said that here, and so have many others. But stop coming here ILLEGALLY.

[Rex Kickass]

We have a huge border. It's neither realistic nor feasible to think that we can catch every illegal alien that crosses the border. The best way to stop the illegal flow of labor is to stop allowing businesses to hire them.

[Texsox]

Tex, I weeded bean fields 2 summers while in high school. I know it is tough work. And itchy, at least with the damn beans. That doesn't make it ok that people are breaking the law while others just pretend it doesn't happen. And the replies concerning 'new' people are for ILLEGAL new people. Farm industry need workers? Fine. Fix the damn guest worker program. I have said that here, and so have many others. But stop coming here ILLEGALLY.

 

I agree. But deporting the ones already here and closing businesses, like farmers, may cause bigger problems then they solve. And the rhetoric that comes out of some of the anti-immigrant mouths says just that.

[NorthSideSox72]

We have a huge border. It's neither realistic nor feasible to think that we can catch every illegal alien that crosses the border. The best way to stop the illegal flow of labor is to stop allowing businesses to hire them.

Ideally, you do it all. You enforce big time on businesses to lower the demand, but you also try to secure the border to the extent possible and allow local law enforcement to deport on arrest if they elect to, to address the supply side. Do all three, combined with setting more realistic immigration levels based on economic need, and you will get somewhere.

 

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

We have a huge border. It's neither realistic nor feasible to think that we can catch every illegal alien that crosses the border. The best way to stop the illegal flow of labor is to stop allowing businesses to hire them.

 

 

Read any one of my posts on this subject and you'll see me make the same point. Problem is that business enforcement is only one part of the solution.

[southsider2k5]

Too bad we as a country haven't looked harder at replacing the illegals with people who really NEED to be here. There are so many people in the world who are victims of genocide, war, famine, etc, and could really use the break of coming to the United States and starting over. I know the detractors will throw money and practicality around as issues, but in reality, any solution is going to cost a ton of money, whether people want to admit it or not. If it doesn't matter who is doing the work, I would much rather see someone escape from rape and murder in Darfur, versus someone who is stealing SS numbers and filing false tax returns. Either way we are going to see a massive increase in costs of products and taxes as the government expands to take in all of these new citizens and labor begins to pay people what they are supposed to be paying, include benefits and unemployment. Think of all the good will around the world we would make by rescuing people from unimaginable situtions? Think of all of the lives we would save. I'd rather see my taxes explode for that versus the system we have now.

[Texsox]

^^^^^ ^^^^^

 

The only downside is we have benefited by having borders with strong allies. But I agree 100% with your direction. As noted spending $ to immigrate a field laborer probably is not cost effective, but nonetheless a worthy project. Kind of like Trade not Aid.

 

But using the Darfur example, do you think they would not steal a SS number to be here?

[southsider2k5]

That's the point of a program like this. You would be able to take people out of their situtions and match them with employment in the US before they ever get here. Think about it, an cotton grower in Texas needs 50 people to tend to his crop. He calls INS, or whoever runs the program, and tells them exactly what he needs. INS looks into the computers and sees that they have refugees in Darfur who used to be sustence farmers before the genocides started happening. INS handles processing the 50 new people, to whatever extend they need to be prepared (IDs, work visas, citizenship, however far you need to go), and then brings them into the country. The farmer in Texas knows he is getting people who want to be here, and people who will be here legally. The workers get to leave a refugee camp, or worse, and get a new life in the US. The US government gets to be hero's to the world. Its a win-win situation.

[StrangeSox]

That's the point of a program like this. You would be able to take people out of their situtions and match them with employment in the US before they ever get here. Think about it, an cotton grower in Texas needs 50 people to tend to his crop. He calls INS, or whoever runs the program, and tells them exactly what he needs. INS looks into the computers and sees that they have refugees in Darfur who used to be sustence farmers before the genocides started happening. INS handles processing the 50 new people, to whatever extend they need to be prepared (IDs, work visas, citizenship, however far you need to go), and then brings them into the country. The farmer in Texas knows he is getting people who want to be here, and people who will be here legally. The workers get to leave a refugee camp, or worse, and get a new life in the US. The US government gets to be hero's to the world. Its a win-win situation.

 

Given the amount of bueracracy that would involve, that Texan farmer would see his workers show up about 3 years after the crops were ready for harvest.

[Texsox]

That's the point of a program like this. You would be able to take people out of their situtions and match them with employment in the US before they ever get here. Think about it, an cotton grower in Texas needs 50 people to tend to his crop. He calls INS, or whoever runs the program, and tells them exactly what he needs. INS looks into the computers and sees that they have refugees in Darfur who used to be sustence farmers before the genocides started happening. INS handles processing the 50 new people, to whatever extend they need to be prepared (IDs, work visas, citizenship, however far you need to go), and then brings them into the country. The farmer in Texas knows he is getting people who want to be here, and people who will be here legally. The workers get to leave a refugee camp, or worse, and get a new life in the US. The US government gets to be hero's to the world. Its a win-win situation.

I love the idea. Maybe not the government becoming an employment agency, but I see another spin off I will come back to.

 

One flaw. Length of employment. Currently the Mexican worker goes back to Mexico after the 3 months of work are completed. How would you handle the person fleeing Darfur?

 

Spin off I really like. INS looks at the database and sees there are 13 unemployed workers in Texas who match qualifications and would be available three days a week during that time. That would give them two days to continue searching for permanent, full time, positions.

 

I'm voting SS for President until he runs up those trillion dollar debts

[southsider2k5]

Given the amount of bueracracy that would involve, that Texan farmer would see his workers show up about 3 years after the crops were ready for harvest.

 

Personally I am sick of the half assed solutions. We tried that in 1986 when there were only 3 million illegals here. Today there are at least 12 million illegals here by most accounts. Do you trust the government to actually fix the problem with the plans that were presented? I don't because the main reason for people to come here illegally has not been removed. As long as the incentives to be here illegally, and the belief that eventually Americans will cave in is out there, illegal immigration will continue to happen. If someone actually put together a real plan that could actually solve the problem, instead of just putting a bandaid on it, it needs to be done.

[southsider2k5]

I love the idea. Maybe not the government becoming an employment agency, but I see another spin off I will come back to.

 

One flaw. Length of employment. Currently the Mexican worker goes back to Mexico after the 3 months of work are completed. How would you handle the person fleeing Darfur?

 

Spin off I really like. INS looks at the database and sees there are 13 unemployed workers in Texas who match qualifications and would be available three days a week during that time. That would give them two days to continue searching for permanent, full time, positions.

 

I'm voting SS for President until he runs up those trillion dollar debts

 

That becomes a part of the matching process. Obviously a person coming from Africa needs a more permanent solution than someone from Mexico who could just go home. If there are that many jobs out there that need filling, there are plenty of solutions.

[Texsox]

And there are enough incentives for illegals to go around.

 

Better jobs and wages for the illegals then available to that individual in Mexico.

Better employees, more employees, and sometimes better profits for the employer.

Lower prices for the consumer.

Arguably lower taxes when workers are "off the books"

[Texsox]

That becomes a part of the matching process. Obviously a person coming from Africa needs a more permanent solution than someone from Mexico who could just go home. If there are that many jobs out there that need filling, there are plenty of solutions.

 

It's a great idea and I really don't want to pick it apart. The hurdles are big, but the worldwide benefit is even bigger. Education comes into play in finding more permanent jobs.