This is why we have an illegal immigration problem.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

I'd rather see my taxes explode for that

 

Right...

[Texsox]

Right...

 

Because the best way to receive more tax revenue is to cut taxes. By exploding, he's saying we need to cut taxes to pay for it.

[Texsox]

I was at the post office yesterday and thought about y'all. I have a question for you English only types. To have English only do you mind waiting longer in line while other citizens and visitors try to make sense out of English forms? Many of you also talk about how much more efficient private business is compared to public. What does a private business do in the same situation? They become bilingual for faster, more efficient service. But you are suggesting that your government should not strive to be more efficient, why is that?

[NorthSideSox72]

I was at the post office yesterday and thought about y'all. I have a question for you English only types. To have English only do you mind waiting longer in line while other citizens and visitors try to make sense out of English forms? Many of you also talk about how much more efficient private business is compared to public. What does a private business do in the same situation? They become bilingual for faster, more efficient service. But you are suggesting that your government should not strive to be more efficient, why is that?

The most efficient thing to do would not be to bilingualize the postal service and a bazillion other government agencies - which I cannot even fathom the cost of. The better solution is education and training for immigrants. If the expectation is set that you need English to function, then immigrants will learn English. That is the efficient methodology we should be targeting.

 

[EvilMonkey]

The most efficient thing to do would not be to bilingualize the postal service and a bazillion other government agencies - which I cannot even fathom the cost of. The better solution is education and training for immigrants. If the expectation is set that you need English to function, then immigrants will learn English. That is the efficient methodology we should be targeting.

[Texsox]

 

If you "train your customers" and I do business the way they prefer, who will have more business and better satisfied customers?

 

So you are in favor of a less efficient post office, INS, etc.?

[Texsox]

The most efficient thing to do would not be to bilingualize the postal service and a bazillion other government agencies - which I cannot even fathom the cost of. The better solution is education and training for immigrants. If the expectation is set that you need English to function, then immigrants will learn English. That is the efficient methodology we should be targeting.

 

How much time do you give an adult to learn English?

 

Here's where I'm going with this, and it's really which is the cheapest or most cost effective model for servicing Spanish speaking customers. I'm limiting to Spanish because it is the #2 language in the US.

 

You have ten people in line at the DMV, City Hall to get a business license, IRS, etc. Two speak English as a second language or not at all. They are next in line. They have their interpretor with them. The clerk gives information to the interpretor, who passes it on to the customer, who replies in Spanish which gets interpreted and back and forth we go. The line stalls. Errors are made. Etc.

 

Do we:

Accept the stall?

Refuse services to some citizens and resident aliens?

Hire more people?

Produce forms in Spanish?

 

What would a private business do? I know one just refuses to sell to customers who can't speak English.

 

Bottom line, there is probably a point where bi-lingual is the cheaper way to go. I believe it only makes sense in Spanish across the nation, but probably there are pockets where other languages make sense from an economic standpoint.

[NorthSideSox72]

If you "train your customers" and I do business the way they prefer, who will have more business and better satisfied customers?

 

So you are in favor of a less efficient post office, INS, etc.?

How do you keep coming around to less efficient? Spending a bajillion dollars, via the government (which never does anything efficiently), to do something that the people of this country can and should do themselves, is not efficient. It can't be. I don't understand how you don't see that.

 

If you run a private business, you will do whatever it takes to make the most money. If that means you want to go bilingual, then great, so be it. But for a "business" the size of the federal government, that incremental cost is enormous - like many billions of dollars enormous. If instead, immigrants are expected to learn English (and given the tools to do so), that makes not only government agencies but everyone else more efficient, as everyone has to spend less money. Better to invest a little in supplemental education where necessary, and expect a little effort from new immigrants as well, then to try to massively shift the government to be bilingual.

 

[EvilMonkey]

If you "train your customers" and I do business the way they prefer, who will have more business and better satisfied customers?

 

So you are in favor of a less efficient post office, INS, etc.?

They don't have a choice in government, unless they choose to go back to mexico. INS, I can understand multilingual people being hired. It should not be a requirement for the PO to have things printed in spanish, or polish, or japanese. it shoudl not be required to print ballots in 12 different languages. If Joe's Deli in Nogalas wants to employ spanish speaking people to help with his large mexican customer base, fine. if that large mexican customer base wants to go to the village hall and get a picnic permit, they should learn enough english to conduct business with the government. If someone there HAPPENS to know spanish and can help out, great.

[NorthSideSox72]

How much time do you give an adult to learn English?

All depends on their exposure level, etc. If people come here and want to, many can learn from their families and cohorts - that is what most immigrants have done for decades or centuries. But I am also perfectly OK with spending some education dollars helping that along - its a far better investment than the alternative.

 

[southsider2k5]

If you "train your customers" and I do business the way they prefer, who will have more business and better satisfied customers?

 

So you are in favor of a less efficient post office, INS, etc.?

 

The big question would be is it more effecient to change the whole system for a few, or change a few for the whole system?

[sox4lifeinPA]

This thread title is misleading...

 

20 pages to explain why we have a illegal immigration problem?

 

 

I think it should read "20 pages to explain why we have an immigration problem...maybe"

[Texsox]

How do you keep coming around to less efficient? Spending a bajillion dollars, via the government (which never does anything efficiently), to do something that the people of this country can and should do themselves, is not efficient. It can't be. I don't understand how you don't see that.

 

If you run a private business, you will do whatever it takes to make the most money. If that means you want to go bilingual, then great, so be it. But for a "business" the size of the federal government, that incremental cost is enormous - like many billions of dollars enormous. If instead, immigrants are expected to learn English (and given the tools to do so), that makes not only government agencies but everyone else more efficient, as everyone has to spend less money. Better to invest a little in supplemental education where necessary, and expect a little effort from new immigrants as well, then to try to massively shift the government to be bilingual.

 

Sorry, I didn't see where it takes a bajillion dollars to print two forms. For a Federal form it may take one person a few days to translate the form. Then it is used by millions of people. Why is that going to be less efficient? Wouldn't the English printing costs go down? And looking at the private sector is exactly why I started thinking about bilingual. Which costs more, hiring, forever, more clerks, or translating forms once?

 

Where does it make the government more efficient to take longer to service someone in line?

 

How fast will someone learn enough English to handle these transactions?

 

I'm not suggesting 100% of all forms would be in Spanish, but how about the front line forms?

 

There is a cross over where it is more efficient to communicate with a large group of people in their language than forcing that large group to learn another. Something like this.

 

Average time in English, 7 minutes

Average time in Spanish 3 minutes

By producing the form in Spanish we can speed up the service line for everyone and delay hiring another clerk.

[Texsox]

The big question would be is it more effecient to change the whole system for a few, or change a few for the whole system?

 

By few do you mean 10% of the population? I believe at some point there is a cross over point where it is. It will vary by language. Translating to Icelandic would probably never be, but Spanish very well could.

[NorthSideSox72]

Sorry, I didn't see where it takes a bajillion dollars to print two forms. For a Federal form it may take one person a few days to translate the form. Then it is used by millions of people. Why is that going to be less efficient? Wouldn't the English printing costs go down? And looking at the private sector is exactly why I started thinking about bilingual. Which costs more, hiring, forever, more clerks, or translating forms once?

 

Where does it make the government more efficient to take longer to service someone in line?

 

How fast will someone learn enough English to handle these transactions?

 

I'm not suggesting 100% of all forms would be in Spanish, but how about the front line forms?

 

There is a cross over where it is more efficient to communicate with a large group of people in their language than forcing that large group to learn another. Something like this.

 

Average time in English, 7 minutes

Average time in Spanish 3 minutes

By producing the form in Spanish we can speed up the service line for everyone and delay hiring another clerk.

do you know how many "forms" the U.S. government publishes? I'm guessing its in the millions. And what good do the forms do in two languages if the people behind the counter can't answer questions?

 

 

[Texsox]

They don't have a choice in government, unless they choose to go back to mexico. INS, I can understand multilingual people being hired. It should not be a requirement for the PO to have things printed in spanish, or polish, or japanese. it shoudl not be required to print ballots in 12 different languages. If Joe's Deli in Nogalas wants to employ spanish speaking people to help with his large mexican customer base, fine. if that large mexican customer base wants to go to the village hall and get a picnic permit, they should learn enough english to conduct business with the government. If someone there HAPPENS to know spanish and can help out, great.

 

I agree. But doesn't it make sense that at some point it is more efficient and cost effective to offer service in Spanish? A form gets translated once, the English one would need to be translated many times.

[Texsox]

do you know how many "forms" the U.S. government publishes? I'm guessing its in the millions. And what good do the forms do in two languages if the people behind the counter can't answer questions?

 

That is why I said the front line forms. How many government forms have you looked at this year? Certainly not millions, I doubt even dozens. Why not have those in Spanish? Say the top 250?

 

Currently the clerk and the customer couldn't answer the questions, so now we have a fighting chance that at least the customer could figure it out.

 

A hurdle, all answers would have to be in English. But name, address, etc are the same in any language.

[Jenksismyhero]

That is why I said the front line forms. How many government forms have you looked at this year? Certainly not millions, I doubt even dozens. Why not have those in Spanish? Say the top 250?

 

Currently the clerk and the customer couldn't answer the questions, so now we have a fighting chance that at least the customer could figure it out.

 

A hurdle, all answers would have to be in English. But name, address, etc are the same in any language.

 

It's not a matter of simply providing forms in spanish. For such a system to be effective you'd need to create a spanish speaking support system, which adds more to the budget. I'm willing to bet if you don't know english you won't know a thing about the different processes the government requires you go through, like using the post office, going to the DMV, etc. I think in theory you have a good idea, but in reality it's not cost effective.

 

And I'll be the evil-Republican here and say: is it that bad to involuntarily "force" people to learn the language that 90% of the country speaks? I know it's horrible to think that people who come to the country should become American and assimiliate at least partly to the American culture, but I guess I don't see a big problem with it.

[southsideirish71]

That is why I said the front line forms. How many government forms have you looked at this year? Certainly not millions, I doubt even dozens. Why not have those in Spanish? Say the top 250?

 

Currently the clerk and the customer couldn't answer the questions, so now we have a fighting chance that at least the customer could figure it out.

 

A hurdle, all answers would have to be in English. But name, address, etc are the same in any language.

 

How long does it take people to assimilate if you don't make them learn the language. In IT I have worked for a lot of different companies. And a lot of time, the programming wing of the department has a lot of foreign based workers that come over on Visa. Not just Indians, but Malaysians, Indonesians, Vietnamese. The Indian's usually are taught English in schools. But a lot of the other countries dont have that infrastructure setup. A lot of them didn't speak English, or spoke little English, however have made an extreme effort to learn the language. Why, because they had to. I have a co-worker now that came over from Indonesia. He said he knew a few words when he came over, but located some free schools in Chicago to learn English(yes they have them) and he took on the challenge of learning English. Now why can he and others in the workforce assimilate, and learn English. Yet we need to create a secondary infrastructure for those who seem to have so many issues. The leap from Spanish to English is not as difficult as say Mandrian Chinese, or Russian, or Indonesian is to go to English. At least Spanish and English come from a similar root language. There are lots of immigrants from places that don't speak English that come over here, and have the same battle that the Spanish speaking public has to deal with. Why can they assimilate. Over the history of the United States, we have had different foreign groups come over, and assimilate. Once they move into society, and take on the efforts of learning the language and becoming part of the melting pot. Sometimes its time to pull the security blanket, and make them assimilate. They can do it, its just about if they want to.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

How long does it take people to assimilate if you don't make them learn the language. In IT I have worked for a lot of different companies. And a lot of time, the programming wing of the department has a lot of foreign based workers that come over on Visa. Not just Indians, but Malaysians, Indonesians, Vietnamese. The Indian's usually are taught English in schools. But a lot of the other countries dont have that infrastructure setup. A lot of them didn't speak English, or spoke little English, however have made an extreme effort to learn the language. Why, because they had to. I have a co-worker now that came over from Indonesia. He said he knew a few words when he came over, but located some free schools in Chicago to learn English(yes they have them) and he took on the challenge of learning English. Now why can he and others in the workforce assimilate, and learn English. Yet we need to create a secondary infrastructure for those who seem to have so many issues. The leap from Spanish to English is not as difficult as say Mandrian Chinese, or Russian, or Indonesian is to go to English. At least Spanish and English come from a similar root language. There are lots of immigrants from places that don't speak English that come over here, and have the same battle that the Spanish speaking public has to deal with. Why can they assimilate. Over the history of the United States, we have had different foreign groups come over, and assimilate. Once they move into society, and take on the efforts of learning the language and becoming part of the melting pot. Sometimes its time to pull the security blanket, and make them assimilate. They can do it, its just about if they want to.

Not to discredit your argument but perhaps a person from Malaysia making a good wage in I.T. has better opportunities to learn a second language. They might not have to work 2 or 3 jobs to feed the family and have more time to study another language. Might be a class issue not a race thing. I could be wrong.

[Texsox]

It's not a matter of simply providing forms in spanish. For such a system to be effective you'd need to create a spanish speaking support system, which adds more to the budget. I'm willing to bet if you don't know english you won't know a thing about the different processes the government requires you go through, like using the post office, going to the DMV, etc. I think in theory you have a good idea, but in reality it's not cost effective.

 

And I'll be the evil-Republican here and say: is it that bad to involuntarily "force" people to learn the language that 90% of the country speaks? I know it's horrible to think that people who come to the country should become American and assimiliate at least partly to the American culture, but I guess I don't see a big problem with it.

 

I don't think it is an all-or-nothing situation, but small changes could yield big results. Most of the time you fill out the form and that's it. If that is 80 or 90% of the transactions, you've streamlined things considerably. Those 10 or 20% will be the same. Again, speeding services.

 

And most of these have already been done. The English only types would be throwing all that away, which seems wasteful.

[southsideirish71]

Not to discredit your argument but perhaps a person from Malaysia making a good wage in I.T. has better opportunities to learn a second language. They might not have to work 2 or 3 jobs to feed the family and have more time to study another language. Might be a class issue not a race thing. I could be wrong.

 

The person from Indonesia came from nothing of the sort. He was from the rural areas of the country. His family is dirt poor, and the only reason he learned about computers is that his family realized that he would have no opportunities in their village. They had him leave and go an live with another relative when he was 13. And learned that only education could take him out of his mess. He worked his ass off, and that is why he is here. If he can do it, under the severe circumstances that he went through, there is no reason the rest can't.

 

He also learned the language here, from free classes in Chicago.

Edited September 13, 2007 by southsideirish71

[Texsox]

How long does it take people to assimilate if you don't make them learn the language. In IT I have worked for a lot of different companies. And a lot of time, the programming wing of the department has a lot of foreign based workers that come over on Visa. Not just Indians, but Malaysians, Indonesians, Vietnamese. The Indian's usually are taught English in schools. But a lot of the other countries dont have that infrastructure setup. A lot of them didn't speak English, or spoke little English, however have made an extreme effort to learn the language. Why, because they had to. I have a co-worker now that came over from Indonesia. He said he knew a few words when he came over, but located some free schools in Chicago to learn English(yes they have them) and he took on the challenge of learning English. Now why can he and others in the workforce assimilate, and learn English. Yet we need to create a secondary infrastructure for those who seem to have so many issues. The leap from Spanish to English is not as difficult as say Mandrian Chinese, or Russian, or Indonesian is to go to English. At least Spanish and English come from a similar root language. There are lots of immigrants from places that don't speak English that come over here, and have the same battle that the Spanish speaking public has to deal with. Why can they assimilate. Over the history of the United States, we have had different foreign groups come over, and assimilate. Once they move into society, and take on the efforts of learning the language and becoming part of the melting pot. Sometimes its time to pull the security blanket, and make them assimilate. They can do it, its just about if they want to.

 

Fair enough, and you're willing to pay the price of a less efficient government, more wait times at government offices, to help them assimiliate? I do not believe I am.

[NorthSideSox72]

Fair enough, and you're willing to pay the price of a less efficient government, more wait times at government offices, to help them assimiliate? I do not believe I am.

IT IS NOT LESS EFFICIENT!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS MORE EFFICIENT!!!!!!

 

Do you have some goofy definition of efficient? How is having to deal with more than one language more efficient than just one? That makes no sense.

 

I think I just need to give up discussing this topic with you.

 

[southsider2k5]

Texsox: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Random poster#1:[whispering] Germans?

Random poster#2 :Forget it, he's rolling.