Aaron Cunningham Traded to Zona for IF Danny Richar

[GreenSox]

For the people worrying about Ozzie + rookies/prospects,

 

There's a big difference between having a player with the right attitude sucking and the wrong attitude sucking and taking care of them accordingly.

 

Also: there's a difference between a rebuilding year and a follow up to the World Series and how you baby development.

 

I'm sure Ozzie knows the difference and will put his murderous hatred for his players aside.

 

What I do know, however, is that Ozzie gives his backups more playing time than anyone in baseball, and there's nothing wrong with keeping them so sharp. But let's not confuse that with bad managing.

Sure Ozzie gives his backups playing time - look how he loaded the bench - his backups are all swing at everything slap hitters with little patience - the type of hitting ozzie loves. He can stick a cintron or rob out there day after day hitting .230 with no problem - but put a rookie out there and he can't stand it.

 

 

He has no choice with Fields.

 

What evidence is there that he's willing to develop a young position player? He was unwilling to let Anderson play stellar D in center and bat 9; Sweeney didn't last a month. Right now, he has Gonzales (not a serious prospect) playing left.

So who has Ozzie Guillen been willing to develop and teach? What young hitter has this coaching staff improved?

Edited June 17, 2007 by GreenSox

[Gregory Pratt]

Sure Ozzie gives his backups playing time - look how he loaded the bench - his backups are all swing at everything slap hitters with little patience - the type of hitting ozzie loves. He can stick a cintron or rob out there day after day hitting .230 with no problem - but put a rookie out there and he can't stand it.

He has no choice with Fields.

 

What evidence is there that he's willing to develop a young position player? He was unwilling to let Anderson play stellar D in center and bat 9; Sweeney didn't last a month. Right now, he has Gonzales (not a serious prospect) playing left.

So who has Ozzie Guillen been willing to develop and teach?

 

Guillen loves Danks and Sweeney, for two, but I'm not going to debate the rest of it all with you because last time you had htis discussion you kept insisting that Ozzie Guillen a. thinks he was a particularly good hitter, that b. Ozzie hates good hitters and c. Ozzie hates OBP all of which is absurd.

 

PS: Ozzie didn't construct the bench.

[DBAHO]

I don't care. I wouldn't care if he threw ten shutouts in a row, which he won't. I don't expect him to do anything at the Major League level and his AAA stats don't impress me much like I'm not impressed by, oh, Anderson or Aardsma or Fields or Getz or Rogo in AAA. It's not a good league and besides, it's AAA, not the ML. I'm sure Floyd would get ripped unless he were facing the White Sox.

 

Don't take it to mean that I completely and absolutely discount stats in AAA. Of course not. If they bring up Floyd, I'm all for it. I'd rather he bomb out this year than next, when something might matter. I'm all for bringing up our other players, too. Whoever they want to bring up, bring them up this year, fine, but I'll wait and see what happens, and in a lot of our system's cases -- especially in Floyd's -- I don't expect it to be good.

So before this season started, John Danks had an 4.33 ERA in 13 starts down in AAA for Oklahoma. Would that have meant you would have written him off as a non - contributor in the majors this season?

[Gregory Pratt]

Completely different. Danks' history, his youth, the time it usually takes him to get acclimated to leagues -- all of it works in his favor while all of those same issues are opposites with Gavin Floyd. That's why John beat him out.

[DBAHO]

Completely different. Danks' history, his youth, the time it usually takes him to get acclimated to leagues -- all of it works in his favor while all of those same issues are opposites with Gavin Floyd. That's why John beat him out.

So wait a sec. It usually takes Danks a while for him to get acclimated to a league, as his stats will show, he would go up a league and usually struggle, and then do much better the following season.

 

Why not the same luxury for Floyd, in terms of yeah he's pitching in the IL again, but he's got better numbers to show for it (which possibly means something may have finally clicked, pitchers can be late bloomers), and he would be pitching in a worse pitching environment down in Charlotte I would dare say?

 

I'm by no means dismissing John Danks here, I just think you've looked at what Floyd has done in the majors and thought "nope, he's got no chance of making it". What about Brandon McCarthy when he struggled the 1st couple of times he was up in the majors for us in 2005?

[Rowand44]

*Waits for Brandon McCarthy is trash response*

To write off a 24 year old 1st round pick who is putting up solid numbers at AAA is moronic.

Not to mention some pretty good sources from this site said his stuff is back to being pretty damn good. Floyd intrigues me more than anyone else in our system right now to be honest.

[GreenSox]

Guillen loves Danks and Sweeney, for two, but I'm not going to debate the rest of it all with you because last time you had htis discussion you kept insisting that Ozzie Guillen a. thinks he was a particularly good hitter, that b. Ozzie hates good hitters and c. Ozzie hates OBP all of which is absurd.

 

PS: Ozzie didn't construct the bench.

Really, tell me, give me some hope that ozzie gives a whip about OBP. What is there that makes you think he does?

I forgot about Guillen's love for Torrero. Another hack at everything hitter.

 

Wouldn't ONE of these players (other than the middle of the order hitters) have a decent OBP or walk rate if Ozzie and Walker cared about or taught plate patience? Hell, Jerry Owens doesn't have a walk all season. Not one. Ozzie calls erstad and his .310 obp a .400 quality hitter. I don't see it.

Edited June 18, 2007 by GreenSox

[southsideirish71]

Not to mention some pretty good sources from this site said his stuff is back to being pretty damn good. Floyd intrigues me more than anyone else in our system right now to be honest.

 

Floyds stuff is top shelf. If he can throw strikes and attack the zone he could be special. A mid 90s moving fastball and plus plus curve are not exactly things that grow on trees.

[Gregory Pratt]

*Waits for Brandon McCarthy is trash response*

To write off a 24 year old 1st round pick who is putting up solid numbers at AAA is moronic.

 

I'm being pragmatic. The league is awful. I'm just not willing to write him in as anything successful after he's busted for Philadelphia and sucked in the spring and now that he's doing good in AAA in the IL? No, I'm not willing to do that.

 

DBAHO, Danks and Floyd are complete opposites of one another and the difference for them isn't a luxery. I'm not giving Danks a luxery when I say that he was young at all his levels and that's the difference between him and Floyd who is old for his levels and bad for them to boot besides this current stretch.

 

--

 

Is it true that Floyd's stuff is back to what it was when he was a hot prospect? I don't think so. I've heard otherwise and ST was different. We'll have to wait and see when he comes up, eventually.

 

I'm cynical about it.

[DBAHO]

I'm being pragmatic. The league is awful. I'm just not willing to write him in as anything successful after he's busted for Philadelphia and sucked in the spring and now that he's doing good in AAA in the IL? No, I'm not willing to do that.

 

DBAHO, Danks and Floyd are complete opposites of one another and the difference for them isn't a luxery. I'm not giving Danks a luxery when I say that he was young at all his levels and that's the difference between him and Floyd who is old for his levels and bad for them to boot besides this current stretch.

 

--

 

Is it true that Floyd's stuff is back to what it was when he was a hot prospect? I don't think so. I've heard otherwise and ST was different. We'll have to wait and see when he comes up, eventually.

 

I'm cynical about it.

But I think you also have to look in those environments. I mean how many pitchers do well in ST in Arizona? Danks did, and that's why he won the job. But just because Floyd didn't, doesn't mean he's struggling to pitch well. Hell, how many pitchers in Philadelphia not named Myers and Hamels have done the job for the Phillies?

 

We'll agree to disagree on this. And yeah the AAA certainly isn't nowhere near the majors in terms of talent, but Charlotte is a bandbox, and a lot of pitchers have struggled there before. It's why sometimes we've seen pitching prospects make the jump from AA to the majors, just to avoid that (or if they're ready which is another matter).

 

I'm not in on the loop as much on Floyd's stuff obviously, because I'm not over there, and I don't have any contacts. What I do know, is in the last couple of months, I don't think he's given up any more than 4ER in his last 10 starts (or something like that) and his ERA has decreased from the high 4's, to the mid 3's, which tells me that he must be at least something right down there.

[hitlesswonder]

What evidence is there that he's willing to develop a young position player? He was unwilling to let Anderson play stellar D in center and bat 9; Sweeney didn't last a month. Right now, he has Gonzales (not a serious prospect) playing left. So who has Ozzie Guillen been willing to develop and teach? What young hitter has this coaching staff improved?

 

Guillen has been right about every prospect he decided couldn't play. Anderson, McCarthy, and Sweeney have done absolutely nothing to prove Guillen was wrong. I don't think it's the major league coaching staff's fault that Sox prospects don't develop into impact major leaguers.

[Chisoxfn]

Guillen has been right about every prospect he decided couldn't play. Anderson, McCarthy, and Sweeney have done absolutely nothing to prove Guillen was wrong. I don't think it's the major league coaching staff's fault that Sox prospects don't develop into impact major leaguers.

Ummm...Guillen absolutely LOVES and I mean LOVES Ryan Sweeney so I don't know how you bundled him up with McCarthy and Anderson.

[quickman]

How the hell can anyone feel one way or another about this trade?

 

Prospect for prospect. 24-year-old for A-baller. Who cares. Nothing to look twice at.

 

If this means Iguchi is out the door sooner rather than later, maybe this trade develops some sort of significance...if not, I really couldn't care less.

 

 

completely agree, both of them will never make it big or be starters for any major league team. This has nothing to do with Iguchi but may have soemthing to do with the fact that our minor league infielders blow. this is a guy who if we get injury prone like we have been can come up and play for two weeks and still have potential of getting a base hit which is something our other crappy minor league players cannot do including our top prospects.

[alk3kevin]

Maybe Anderson and McCarthy busted because our manager couldn't f***ing handle letting young players develop. It takes more than one season.

Ozzie decided from day one Anderson was s*** so he played him sporadically throughout the year. Real managers stick to the young guys despite their struggles (Pedroia anyone?).

Edited June 18, 2007 by Craig Grebeck

[Gregory Pratt]

Maybe Anderson and McCarthy busted because our manager couldn't f***ing handle letting young players develop. It takes more than one season.

Ozzie decided from day one Anderson was s*** so he played him sporadically throughout the year. Real managers stick to the young guys despite their struggles (Pedroia anyone?).

 

Now now, no personal attacks mister.

 

Ozzie was good to Anderson for half the season. Something changed between the start and the rest. You know what changed? Not Anderson's approach, that's for sure. He had the same abysmal approach all year long and the results showed. And please don't cite a couple of batches of 60 or so at-bats where he was good because he wasn't good at all last season or this. His swing and approach were bad.

 

But there are a lot of behavioral issues that need to be taken care of.

 

As far as Pedroia, I imagine he's got an attittude that gets on with the manager's, but I don't know the whole situation. He's probably made adjustments at the plate.

[hitlesswonder]

Maybe Anderson and McCarthy busted because our manager couldn't f***ing handle letting young players develop. It takes more than one season.

Ozzie decided from day one Anderson was s*** so he played him sporadically throughout the year. Real managers stick to the young guys despite their struggles (Pedroia anyone?).

Anderson got a lot of at-bats from a contending team last season. I will agree that in the second half Ozzie should have played Anderson more just because the alternative was Mack's abysmal glove in CF. But look at what Anderson is doing in AAA and tell me Ozzie was wrong in his assessment. The Sox minor league system is simply terrible. No one they have called up has even been able to play at replacement level. How can that be? We're talking about the level that "freely available AAA talent" should play at. I don't blame Ozzie for that.

[Heads22]

Anderson got a lot of at-bats from a contending team last season. I will agree that in the second half Ozzie should have played Anderson more just because the alternative was Mack's abysmal glove in CF. But look at what Anderson is doing in AAA and tell me Ozzie was wrong in his assessment. The Sox minor league system is simply terrible. No one they have called up has even been able to play at replacement level. How can that be? We're talking about the level that "freely available AAA talent" should play at. I don't blame Ozzie for that.

 

 

You do know that Anderson's been playing hurt ever since his average started dropping?

[Gregory Pratt]

Since day one?

If I recall he doubled and had a great Opening Day then...poof.

[GreenSox]

Guillen has been right about every prospect he decided couldn't play. Anderson, McCarthy, and Sweeney have done absolutely nothing to prove Guillen was wrong. I don't think it's the major league coaching staff's fault that Sox prospects don't develop into impact major leaguers.

 

They haven't been given a chance. Ozzie jerks Anderson around; despite a good second half and good spring, he benches him and gives him a handful of at bats in the first month. Sweeney played 1 month. (I certainly hope, Ozzie didn't put him into his dog house; he wasn't hanging around Ozzie, jr, was he?). We don't know that they're busts. Did Ozzie and Walker enable their development and allow them to bring out their best, whatever it may be.

On the other hand, Jerry Owens, who has the lowest ceiling of the prospects and a .178 OBP (zero walks) stays up. Gonzales, a potential major league utility infielder, is playing outfield - he's not a serious prospect, but he gets serious playing time.

Pretty soon Ozzie won't have any choice - he'll have to play prospects and hopefully he'll try to develop them. They don't need coddling (he does that with Vasquez, and it 's a failure) - they need teaching, leadership and development.

Edited June 18, 2007 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

We will surely need to replace Gooch after we let him walk for nothing.

 

 

Iguchi and Riske are not unlike...I can see no reason why KW would want to keep him, and offering him arbitration (to try to get draft pick compensation) only puts us in a precarious situation if we end up having to take him back.

 

Iguchi was good in 05 and 06 but he's obviously in a "decline mode" and his defensive skills, especially, are eroding.

 

This is all a part of the next generation of Sox players getting younger, faster and more athletic.

 

Obviously, Andy Gonzalez and Pedro Lopez (while he was here) were not the answers. If anything, this was a shot in the direction of Chris Getz and Pablo Ozuna, they were the two best candidates to play there in 2008, maybe Cintron as well because of his weakened arm and more limited range.

 

Cunningham was at least two and probably three (going by past Sox development history) years away from being a possibility to start for the White Sox. Signing an Eckstein or Luis Castillo was not going to improve this team for 09, 10 or 11. We need players that are 22-28, not 32-38. It's that simple.

 

If you can combine these younger, hungrier starting players with solid starting pitching and a few bullpen fixes, we should finish between .500 and 10 games under. However, we have to make a significant jump next year in preparation for 09 and 10. And we have to be patient, the thing that's in shortest supply around here.

 

 

 

 

 

They haven't been given a chance. Ozzie jerks Anderson around; despite a good second half and good spring, he benches him and gives him a handful of at bats in the first month. Sweeney played 1 month. (I certainly hope, Ozzie didn't put him into his dog house; he wasn't hanging around Ozzie, jr, was he?). We don't know that they're busts. Did Ozzie and Walker enable their development and allow them to bring out their best, whatever it may be.

On the other hand, Jerry Owens, who has the lowest ceiling of the prospects and a .178 OBP (zero walks) stays up. Gonzales, a potential major league utility infielder, is playing outfield - he's not a serious prospect, but he gets serious playing time.

Pretty soon Ozzie won't have any choice - he'll have to play prospects and hopefully he'll try to develop them. They don't need coddling (he does that with Vasquez, and it 's a failure) - they need teaching, leadership and development.

 

 

Sweeney showed some patience and discipline (better than most of our veterans), but he was obviously overmatched and the Sox were right to send him down when they did. Almost all of his hits were to LF, except for the few times he turned on the ball. And he wasn't hitting many liners to LF either, they were mostly bloopers and dunks and he was getting busted inside over and over again.

 

He also needs to mature physically, just get stronger and more confident. He'll be fine and will play a ton in the 2nd half with Dye probably getting traded.

 

With Owens, we need speed to replace Erstad and Pods at the top of the line-up. I think Owens will go back down this week if he continues to struggle and they might have to bring up either Sweeney or Anderson again...or Erstad/Pods will come back.

 

Andy Gonzalez is just a "filler" while the real prospects step in...perhaps he could take Ozuna's or Cintron's place, but that's a best-case scenario for him.

 

Anderson is definitely not a leadoff hitter, and Sweeney's not an ideal fit for that role either. Iguchi or Mack are the only ones other than Owens, and both those guys are far from "protypical." If nothing else, we're proving that JO is NOT a candidate to replaces Pods in 08, but we should give him a little more time, as there's absolutely nothing to lose, right?

 

As far as coddling Vazquez...it's a no-win situation. He takes him out early, everyone says he's undermining his confidence and he will never work through things on his own...he leave him in, he might give up a big inning, but compare his ERA to anyone in our bullpen (especially middle relief) and you'll see the short and simple answer, because Javier is the best option...or the "least worst" option to get to the later innings. Manuel screwed with Garland, and Ozzie "coddled/supported" him and that seemed to work out just fine, don't you think? Garland wasn't going to win 36 games in 2 years for Manuel, I'll tell you that.

 

He's a 4/5 starter with 1-3 starter stuff. We can trade him for young position players or accept him for what he is, it's really that simple. We can give up hoping he becomes an "ace" like Loaiza or Contreras though.

[BearSox]

Not to mention some pretty good sources from this site said his stuff is back to being pretty damn good. Floyd intrigues me more than anyone else in our system right now to be honest.

IIRC, Floyd was one of the guys that Phillie didn't want to trade and keep.

[Vance Law]

Are you s***ing me?!

 

Does Cunningham have 20 doubles this year? or 8 home runs? or in AAA?

[SoxAce]

Does Cunningham have 20 doubles this year? or 8 home runs? or in AAA?

 

No better. Curse his .294 average and his 12 doubles, 5 triples 8 homers, 34/39 BB:K ratio 22 stolen bases (who knows how to steal a base) and his .852 obp while being only 21 in A+. Why don't you read alittle more into threads as I already stated in this one that I'm not mad about it. It was a bit much though but I do like what this kid brings to the table.

[Vance Law]

To me this proves more of a linkage to Iguchi. He is a FA, they havent had the production out of him that they would like.

 

He led the AL in homers for second basemen in 06 and for 05-06 combined (5th in MLB for that period). He's relatively inexepensive, and there are only a handful of second basemen who've been more productive than him.

 

But for free agent middle infielders who haven't given the production that anyone would like (offensively, that is), look no further than Uribe.

[hitlesswonder]

Does Cunningham have 20 doubles this year? or 8 home runs? or in AAA?

Richar's numbers are heavily aided by his park and league. John Sickels ranked Cunningham as the #6 prospetc in Sox orgnization with a B- ranking. Richar was unranked by Sickels. On the face of it, the Sox traded a better prospect for an older one who they are hoping will contribute to the big league team in 2008. Good luck with that.