More detailed article on the KW/Ozzie/PK meeting

[Rowand44]

I know wtf, who you got going number 1 after that news?

Well you gotta think Tatum is up there now, right?

[southsideirish71]

The next time my company is about to fire someone, maybe we should find someone real close to them, maybe someone they go to lunch with and bounce the idea of firing their lunch pall off of them. If their buddy says to ride it out, maybe we should just say screw it and keep them.

[Kalapse]

He thinks that the major reason that we have gone into this slump, is because Darin Erstad has not been on this ballclub.

Which is pretty f***ing ridiculous seeing as how the Sox were just capping off a 5 game losing streak the day Erstad went down. If the absence of his .318 OBP, less than spectacular defensive play and top notch ass-slapping ability is the reason why the bullpen has decided to go to s*** and why Konerko, Dye, Pierzynski, Crede, Iguchi and Uribe have decided to have one of the worst offensive seasons of their respective careers then something is seriously f***ed up in the psyche of this ballclub.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are almost 11 games out of first and nearly the same amount out of the wild card. How about you wait until you get to say, 500 before we start the silly we are going to win this thing talk. We are closer to 5th than first by a long shot. I wonder if the Royals GM is thinking of adding, because they are in a similiar situation right now.

 

So we didnt add anyone because Pauly told them we had the team to win the WS.

We didnt fire Walker, because Pauly likes him.

Now we may add to a team, that is near 11 games out because our GM cant adjust and Pauly told him to go for it.

 

Stop asking Pauly for advice. Good lord.

So far he has been right twice. If this is his track record - keep asking.

 

 

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this ruffles our feathers because it's the same crap they pulled at the trade deadline last year when KW said that Konerko and Dye said we didn't need to add anything.

I thought you guys were referring to when KW asked Konerko in 2005 and Konerko said that they had the team to win the World Series. I didn't know he and Dye were asked again last year.

 

 

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 18, 2007 -> 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sweet Georgia Brown....waiting for Scott Podsednik and Darin Erstad to come back and propel the Sox to a historic finish is maybe the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The Twins made a historic comeback last season on the backs on Liriano, Santana, Morneau, and Mauer. There's at least 2 future HOF in that group. The Sox think Pods and Erstad will do the same thing for them.

 

If Buehrle and Dye walk for nothing (or just for draft picks that the Sox scouting will turn into trash) Williams will have absolutely done an incompetent job and have screwed the Sox franchise into the ground for the foreseeable future. He may already have done that by cultivating the worst farm system in baseball.

2 Future HOF? Kind of early to make that statement. The Sox desperately need Pods and Erstad. Their leadoff hitters suck something terrible. However, they need RP pretty bad. I understand wat you are saying though. They are not coming back. They should be a little more realistic about the whole thing. Then again, for all those that thought they were laying down and just giving up - and didn't like to see that - here is your proof that they are not. They still think they have a shot. You are damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. You can't please everyone.

Edited June 19, 2007 by southsideirish

[Kalapse]

I thought you guys were referring to when KW asked Konerko in 2005 and Konerko said that they had the team to win the World Series. I didn't know he and Dye were asked again last year.

Konerko, Dye and Pierzynski were asked around the break last season what the team needed for the second half in order to win it all, of course the players said they didn't need anything and hence KW made no real moves to improve the ballclub aside from adding 1 reliever to the fray.

[Reddy]

*cough* houston '05 *cough* atlanta 05 and 06

 

 

not that i think it's LIKELY.... but weird things have happened...

[southsideirish71]

So far he has been right twice. If this is his track record - keep asking.

I thought you guys were referring to when KW asked Konerko in 2005 and Konerko said that they had the team to win the World Series. I didn't know he and Dye were asked again last year.

2 Future HOF? Kind of early to make that statement. The Sox desperately need Pods and Erstad. Their leadoff hitters suck something terrible. However, they need RP pretty bad. I understand wat you are saying though. They are not coming back. They should be a little more realistic about the whole thing. Then again, for all those that thought they were laying down and just giving up - and didn't like to see that - here is your proof that they are not. They still think they have a shot. You are damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. You can't please everyone.

 

To win 95 games which seems to be about what it would take to win this we will need to go 66-30.

 

36 games over 500.

 

So no more losing, you just have to win it out from here on out. Thats it, no losing at all. And with that, you still have to pray that other teams fall apart.

Edited June 19, 2007 by southsideirish71

[bulokis]

This will be the same as last year. KW had a meeting with Thome, Dye and Konerko whether to trade for help and those 3 said no. What happened last year, we sucked big time.

 

Why ask Konerko? What turn around? This season has been over for a while now.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Konerko, Dye and Pierzynski were asked around the break last season what the team needed for the second half in order to win it all, of course the players said they didn't need anything and hence KW made no real moves to improve the ballclub aside from adding 1 reliever to the fray.

Didn't he ask Konerko and Thome about the makeup of the club in ST too? That could just be faulty memory.

 

It's one thing to ask for players input, it's another to believe what they say.

[Kalapse]

*cough* houston '05 *cough* atlanta 05 and 06

not that i think it's LIKELY.... but weird things have happened...

The Braves didn't make the playoffs last season and were a mere 4 games out of 1st place and 4 games over .500 in an incredibly weak NL East on June 19th 2005. Comparing the NL East/Central/West of 2 years ago to the AL Central of today is just asinine.

 

Didn't he ask Konerko and Thome about the makeup of the club in ST too? That could just be faulty memory.

He did. This is a pretty frightening trend.

[southsideirish71]

We are right there.

 

All we have to do is to leapfrog for the wild card.

 

Tampa, Toronto, Minny, Yankees, Seattle, Oakland and Detroit.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 12:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To win 95 games which seems to be about what it would take to win this we will need to go 66-30.

 

36 games over 500.

 

So no more losing, you just have to win it out from here on out. Thats it, no losing at all. And with that, you still have to pray that other teams fall apart.

 

I know 71 - I wasn't disagreeing with you guys at all. Being fans we have a luxury of looking at it more realistically. I believe it would be horribly tough to give up and say die if you have even the slightest chance of winning if this is what you do for a living.

 

 

QUOTE(bulokis @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 12:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This will be the same as last year. KW had a meeting with Thome, Dye and Konerko whether to trade for help and those 3 said no. What happened last year, we sucked big time.

 

Why ask Konerko? What turn around? This season has been over for a while now.

He asked Paulie in 2005 as well. Paulie said they could win the world series with what they have. He was right.

[Gregory Pratt]

Listen, Kenny. They're your players -- not your equals. Don't take what they say as gospel again.

 

Besides, Konerko is a terrible person to ask.

[Kalapse]

I know 71 - I wasn't disagreeing with you guys at all. Being fans we have a luxury of looking at it more realistically. I believe it would be horribly tough to give up and say die if you have even the slightest chance of winning if this is what you do for a living.

He asked Paulie in 2005 as well. Paulie said they could win the world series with what they have. He was right.

Well sometimes as a GM you just have to bite the bullet, realize you put together an incredibly flawed roster and begin retooling for next season and the future. Teams do it every season, some sooner than others and others go about it better than some. KW needs to put his ego aside for a second and realize this team just isn't good enough to hang with Detroit and Cleveland. Anyone who compares the 3 rosters and thinks the Sox are the superior team is kidding themselves.

 

It's going to be tough for KW to do but his job and the future of this franchise depends on what kind of talent he's able to bring in over the next month and a half in exchange for pending free agents and any other unnecessary pieces that remain on the roster after the main guys have been dealt.

 

If Kenny goes for it this season he'll be unemployed by the end of '08.

 

I know 71 - I wasn't disagreeing with you guys at all. Being fans we have a luxury of looking at it more realistically. I believe it would be horribly tough to give up and say die if you have even the slightest chance of winning if this is what you do for a living.

He asked Paulie in 2005 as well. Paulie said they could win the world series with what they have. He was right.

So he asked Konerko again at the break last year and he was dead wrong and just because he loves him so he asked Pauly during ST this season and once again Konerko provided a faulty prediction. So Konerko's down to a 1-2 record, perhaps asking him a 4th time is pushing it just a bit.

[Rowand44]

If Kenny goes for it this season he probably should be unemployed by the end of '08.

Fixed. I just don't think JR would fire him.

[dagotony06]

What's the big deal if you give him until the all star break to see if these guys can turn it around?? What's another few weeks. Even if they don't turn it around, maybe some of these guys can get it going, and increase their trade value. I say let them see if they can turn it around in these next few weeks. The offense looks like it's coming around, give a few weeks and see wat happens. Maybe Konerko sees something in the team we don't get the opportunity to see just watching the from the stands. Who knows?? If it doesn't turn around by then, KW better go into seller mode.

[Flash Tizzle]

What's the big deal if you give him until the all star break to see if these guys can turn it around?? What's another few weeks. Even if they don't turn it around, maybe some of these guys can get it going, and increase their trade value. I say let them see if they can turn it around in these next few weeks. The offense looks like it's coming around, give a few weeks and see wat happens. Maybe Konerko sees something in the team we don't get the opportunity to see just watching the from the stands. Who knows?? If it doesn't turn around by then, KW better go into seller mode.

The 'big deal' here concerns the value of any current player on the trade market. With Dye, Williams can risk keeping him around until the All-Star break. His value is quite low, and even if he doesn't improve we can always hold onto him and anticipate Type-A compensation. With Buehrle, however, three starts leading up to the All-Star break may have a transverse effect if he struggles. Receiving draft picks for Mark doesn't quite seem like an attractive option considering his current value.

 

This 2007 White Sox club isn't winning anything. Why exactly should they be given an additional two weeks when they've had three months to prove themselves.

 

Suggesting Konerko notices something from the team that fans don't is ridiculous as well. Especially when it involves onfield performance.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Flash Tizzle

[greg775]

To win 95 games which seems to be about what it would take to win this we will need to go 66-30.

 

36 games over 500.

 

This is why I hate when we have no urgency right out of the gate after a crap spring training.

You can get buried early and that's what happened to the Sox.

Nobody sensed anything was wrong.

There was a lot wrong right out of the gate when the team was lingering around .500.

Now it will take a miracle just to get back to .500 anytime soon.

[Kalapse]

The 'big deal' here concerns the value of any current player on the trade market. With Dye, Williams can risk keeping him around until the All-Star break. His value is quite low, and even if he doesn't improve we can always hold onto him and anticipate Type-A compensation. With Buehrle, however, three starts leading up to the All-Star break may have a transverse effect if he struggles. Receiving draft picks for Mark doesn't quite seem like an attractive option considering his current value.

 

This 2007 White Sox club isn't winning anything. Why exactly should they be given an additional two weeks when they've had three months to prove themselves.

 

Suggesting Konerko notices something from the team that fans don't is ridiculous as well. Especially when it involves onfield performance.

Right now Dye is probably the best and least expensive bat on the market since Krivsky is asking for like 8 major league players in exchange for Adam Dunn. In 3-4 weeks Dunn's price could have dropped and be dealt off to LA for some young talent taking away a possible suitor for Dye. The Diamondbacks fall out of the race along with the Twins so Arizona is no longer interested in Jermaine and the Twins decide to sell off Hunter to the Padres for whatever the f*** they offer up, who knows. So it's July 23rd and KW is left with Jermaine Dye on his roster and no real obvious suitors for him.

 

At least at the moment you know you control the market with no other bats available and 3 division rivals vying for the services of Jermaine Dye, a few weeks from now and everything could change.

[CWSGuy406]

With Buehrle, however, three starts leading up to the All-Star break may have a transverse effect if he struggles. Receiving draft picks for Mark doesn't quite seem like an attractive option considering his current value.

 

I feel the opposite way. I'd be trying to deal Dye ASAP while holding out hope that you can resign Buehrle (unless someone puts a ridiculously good offer on the table) and eventually trade Contreras. Maybe part of that is a bit selfish -- Buehrle is really the first player who I've watched for a good portion of his seven years in a Sox uniform so it would/will be sad to see him in another uni -- but that's JMO.

[dagotony06]

The 'big deal' here concerns the value of any current player on the trade market. With Dye, Williams can risk keeping him around until the All-Star break. His value is quite low, and even if he doesn't improve we can always hold onto him and anticipate Type-A compensation. With Buehrle, however, three starts leading up to the All-Star break may have a transverse effect if he struggles. Receiving draft picks for Mark doesn't quite seem like an attractive option considering his current value.

 

This 2007 White Sox club isn't winning anything. Why exactly should they be given an additional two weeks when they've had three months to prove themselves.

 

Suggesting Konerko notices something from the team that fans don't is ridiculous as well. Especially when it involves onfield performance.

Well the only player right now that has any value as far as their performance this year is Buerhle. He has 4 more starts I believe until the All star break, against the Cubs, D-rays, Baltimore, and the Twins. He has been throwing pretty well lately so I'll take my chances, plus you dont' even know who is looking to trade for him or what they are willing to give for him. It's early yet. The trade deadline is July 31st, not June 31st. There is plenty of time. As for Dye, and Iguchi, right now you probably wouldn't get much in return with the way they have performed this year. What's the big deal if you wait a few weeks and see what happens, maybe they will increase thier trade value.

 

I'm not saying this team is gonna win anything. But who is to say they don't catch fire and go 15-4 or better these next 19 games. I'm not saying they will, but I'm not saying they can't. Anything is possible. All I'm saying is give them until the All Star break, if they don't turn it around, then let the firesale begin.

 

As for me saying about Konerko seeing something that the fans don't, maybe he does. Maybe he sees signs that he thinks this team can turn it around. Maybe attitude in the clubhouse or maybe he can see signs the offense is coming around. Which it looks like it is. I just don't see the big deal of waiting a few weeks.

[Kalapse]

I feel the opposite way. I'd be trying to deal Dye ASAP while holding out hope that you can resign Buehrle (unless someone puts a ridiculously good offer on the table) and eventually trade Contreras.

These are my thoughts almost exactly. Dye needs to be traded probably by the end of the month at the latest but with Buehrle you can wait until mid to late July if need be with the hope of getting some sort of contract extension hammered out, I don't see Buehrle's trade value taking much of a hit over the next month or so. No matter what though Contreras needs to go sometime between now and April 1st of '08.

[dagotony06]

Right now Dye is probably the best and least expensive bat on the market since Krivsky is asking for like 8 major league players in exchange for Adam Dunn. In 3-4 weeks Dunn's price could have dropped and be dealt off to LA for some young talent taking away a possible suitor for Dye. The Diamondbacks fall out of the race along with the Twins so Arizona is no longer interested in Jermaine and the Twins decide to sell off Hunter to the Padres for whatever the f*** they offer up, who knows. So it's July 23rd and KW is left with Jermaine Dye on his roster and no real obvious suitors for him.

 

At least at the moment you know you control the market with no other bats available and 3 division rivals vying for the services of Jermaine Dye, a few weeks from now and everything could change.

You really think someone is gonna give you alot for Dye?? I don't think so. I don't think the D-backs are gonna fall out of the race anytime soon. I don't think the Twins will unload Hunter until the last possible second, meaning IF they do, it will be close to the deadline. You are gonna have alot of teams looking to add players closer to the deadline. You're right about things changing in a few weeks though, we may have caught fire, and got back into this race, or if anything some of our players might have increased their trade value. I guess we will see and one of us will be right. If you are, I'll give you your props.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So he asked Konerko again at the break last year and he was dead wrong and just because he loves him so he asked Pauly during ST this season and once again Konerko provided a faulty prediction. So Konerko's down to a 1-2 record, perhaps asking him a 4th time is pushing it just a bit.

 

Kalapse I already admitted this in a previous post. I was unaware that KW asked him about this last year or in spring training. I think you just like to argue with me, which is cool with me, I don't mind.

 

 

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 19, 2007 -> 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well sometimes as a GM you just have to bite the bullet, realize you put together an incredibly flawed roster and begin retooling for next season and the future. Teams do it every season, some sooner than others and others go about it better than some. KW needs to put his ego aside for a second and realize this team just isn't good enough to hang with Detroit and Cleveland. Anyone who compares the 3 rosters and thinks the Sox are the superior team is kidding themselves.

 

It's going to be tough for KW to do but his job and the future of this franchise depends on what kind of talent he's able to bring in over the next month and a half in exchange for pending free agents and any other unnecessary pieces that remain on the roster after the main guys have been dealt.

 

If Kenny goes for it this season he'll be unemployed by the end of '08.

 

Like I said, I am not disagreeing here. I am just saying it is a luxury we as fans have - to see that it is a worthless season and just give up. I believe actually being on the team and in the organization it would be a bit more - or a lot more difficult to be able to just throw in the towel. Almost everyone at this level is highly competitive and have a difficult time believing that anything is over until it actually is. It is not about ego really. Haven't you ever been in that situation - where you knew the odds were against you - but you just couldn't give in? I am just saying - it has to be really difficult. Look at it from both sides - not just yours as an outsider of the organization. Plus I don't believe KW will get fired. JR is a very loyal guy and he always dreamed of a baseball championship. KW and Ozzie brought that to him. KW and Ozzie are here until they want to leave if you ask me. Krause was here until he wanted to leave and he was here for way too long. JR is loyal to a fault almost.

Edited June 19, 2007 by southsideirish

[caulfield12]

He makes moves in the offseason, to stave off a string of 90 loss seasons. And now he is talking about going down with the ship, all because the first baseman has a good feeling about a team that has been well under 500 since the ASB of last year.

 

To win this division we will need 93 plus wins. Take a gander on the silly winning percentage we would need to get to 93 wins now.

 

 

We're 16 games under .500 for roughly one full season, and last in runs produced over that period as well.

 

No surprise. I've been arguing this trend from the beginning, but quite a few people didn't like the "aggregation" of the 2nd half 06 and first half 07 numbers...