Buehrle Wants a Five Year Contract

[Dick Allen]

You've been saying this forever now, and so I am just curious. How do you think good bullpens are built? Do you think they are built by signing expensive guys that performed well last year? Do you think that is how solid bullpens are built? The vast majority of effective pitchers coming out of the pen are closers. The rest are so volatile from year to year that they end up being disasters for the club over the life of the deal. The very few that are relatively inexpensive and consistently effective are so valuable to their clubs that you can't get them unless you are willing to give up a boatload of talent in return.

 

I'm just curious. How do you believe a good bullpen can/should be assembled other than trying to find quality young arms?

Lets go back to when the Sox had some reliable guys in the bullpen. Flash Gordon, Hermanson, Shingo for a while, Vizcaino, Politte the 1 season, they all were making well above minimum. We've seen KW and apparently your method of building a bullpen in 2006 and 2007 now. If you can't see it doesn't work to throw a bunch of crap out there by now, especially when you have no one in the minor leagues you can plug in, than you will never see it. The entire bullpen is being paid $3.6 million this season. The White Sox payroll is $109 million which includes the money they are being given by other clubs. They have budgeted 3% of their payroll to the entire bullpen, and they wonder why they suck. Hawk made a comment last night that shocked me, but I sort of agree with it now. He said its getting to the point where its more important to have a dominant bullpen than a dominant rotation. The Sox spend all this money on the rotation and what kind of consistent results have they gotten from them?

Edited June 19, 2007 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Lets go back to when the Sox had some reliable guys in the bullpen. Flash Gordon, Hermanson, Shingo for a while, Vizcaino, Politte the 1 season, they all were making well above minimum. We've seen KW and apparently your method of building a bullpen in 2006 and 2007 now. If you can't see it doesn't work to throw a bunch of crap out there by now, especially when you have no one in the minor leagues you can plug in, than you will never see it. The entire bullpen is being paid $3.6 million this season. The White Sox payroll is $109 which includes the money they are being given by other clubs. They have budgeted 3% of their payroll to the entire bullpen, and they wonder why they suck. Hawk made a comment last night that shocked me, but I sort of agree with it now. He said its getting to the point where its more important to have a dominant bullpen than a dominant rotation. The Sox spend all this money on the rotation and what kind of consistent results have they gotten from them?

 

Well there is one problem with the example you just sited... The Sox have been lambasted for signing guys with injury histories, and if you look at that pen, that is pretty much what it is. Vizcaino is the only guy who has stuck around and been healthy. Shingo was a fluke, as much as I liked him, and the other three have had major injury problems. The only reason we got any of those last three guys was because of their injury histories. If those guys had been healthy and/or good, they wouldn't have been here in the first place. It was blind luck that they came together how they did, and that is bore out by their results since then. Kenny caught lightning in a bottle that year, and he has been trying to do it ever since.

[vandy125]

While Konerko's with us on a 5/$60 million contract, Baltimore offered him 5/65.

 

There is actually a very good analysis of the situation a bit further down on this web site:

 

Konerko Contract

Just search the page for the heading: Did Konerko Take Less Money

 

He actually would have had less take home pay with Anaheim and with Baltimore. He did not take less money to be in Chicago. It was the highest offer.

[Dick Allen]

Well there is one problem with the example you just sited... The Sox have been lambasted for signing guys with injury histories, and if you look at that pen, that is pretty much what it is. Vizcaino is the only guy who has stuck around and been healthy. Shingo was a fluke, as much as I liked him, and the other three have had major injury problems. The only reason we got any of those last three guys was because of their injury histories. If those guys had been healthy and/or good, they wouldn't have been here in the first place. It was blind luck that they came together how they did, and that is bore out by their results since then. Kenny caught lightning in a bottle that year, and he has been trying to do it ever since.

He paid Hermanson and Gordon almost what he's paying the entire bullpen. He didn't want to sign Justin Speier for $4 mill a year because it was too much. Speier was great so far this year, but he's been on the DL with an intestinal infection. Maybe he doesn't get that if he's on the Sox. Maybe he blows his elbow out if he's on the Sox. The thing is MacDougal is a guy with an injury history who wouldn't have been available if he hadn't had one. Aaarsdma wouldn't have been available if he could throw strikes and keep the ball in the park. Sisco wouldn't have been available if he could throw the ball within 5 feet of home plate. Thornton, the same. If the Sox can't develop them, they must go out and pay for them. No one should be shocked at the bullpen's ineptness. I just hope Jenks doesn't have a post ASB meltdown like last season. He probably won't, he's had a ton of rest.

[WCSox]

The entire bullpen is being paid $3.6 million this season. The White Sox payroll is $109 million which includes the money they are being given by other clubs. They have budgeted 3% of their payroll to the entire bullpen, and they wonder why they suck.

 

I completely agree that they've skimped on the 'pen and that it's bitten them in the ass big-time, but I'd argue that their inability to score runs (or even get on base) has been the greater problem this year. And they're spending A LOT on Thome, Paulie, Dye, Crede, AJ, etc.

 

The Sox spend all this money on the rotation and what kind of consistent results have they gotten from them?

 

KW spending money on veteran starters like Freddy and Jose got them a championship, which is more than I can say for the previous 88 years' worth of strategy. Of course, it didn't last, but it was well worth it in my mind. Plus, a strong starting rotation is the foundation of most championship teams. One can argue that Kenny spent TOO MUCH on the starters and not enough on the 'pen, but starting pitching should be the top priority for ANY team.

[kwolf68]

I know we need a firesale, but I want to resign Buehrle. He wants to remain in Chicago, he is home grown, he helped bring home a Title, he is a rock, a stud, he eats innings, he wins, he battles. He is the face of this franchise (w/ PK).

 

I want a boatload of spects, but I want this kid in our rotation for the next decade more.

Edited June 19, 2007 by kwolf68

[Dick Allen]

I know we need a firesale, but I want to resign Buehrle. He wants to remain in Chicago, he is home grown, he helped bring home a Title, he is a rock, a stud, he eats innings, he wins, he battles. He is the face of this franchise (w/ PK).

 

I want a boatload of spects, but I want this kid in our rotation for the next decade more.

Trade him, and go after him when he becomes a free agent.

[Harry Chappas]

Bullpens are a complete crapshoot. JC Romero was just released, wasn't he lites out for the Twins a couple of years back.

 

Using the Twins and Oakland as examples, how much do they spend on their pen? They usually have really good one's. Outside of the closer, bullpens need to be constructed by flukie delivery one trick ponies that only face a couple of hitters every few days.

 

I think that KW is finally determined to build his pen from within ala the Twins. You spend money on a rotation and a couple of big bats then build your fill in hitters and pen from within. The problem with the White Sox is that the farm system is not able to produce the .333 OBP lite hitters and 90-92 MPH fastball above average slider for strike pitchers.

 

If the Sox were the Twins, Broadway, Floyd, and Gio would be in the pen and Owens, Fields and Valido would be setting up Dye, Konerko, and Thome.

 

I still would like to know where the money will be spent next season if Buerhle, Dye, Iguchi and Crede are not back that is over $25M.

 

I also think for the NL (Cards, Mets, and Braves) the likes of Contrearas and Vazquez would be worth picking up as their deals are not that bad. They are actually great deals if KW is willing to eat a couple mil in exchange for good prospects . Think Contrearas plus $2M a year for Reyes. If KW ate half of Contrearas deal what could he get......

 

Ichiro will not be on the market IMHO.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Jenks Heat

[elrockinMT]

If he wants a five year contract, give it to him.

 

 

I agree. I think that KW and the Sox front office shoots themselves in the foot (feet) everytime they put a restriction on signing someone like Mark to a contract. The guy has no arm trouble history and is a consistent pitcher and team leader. You make exceptions for people like that

[iamshack]

Lets go back to when the Sox had some reliable guys in the bullpen. Flash Gordon, Hermanson, Shingo for a while, Vizcaino, Politte the 1 season, they all were making well above minimum. We've seen KW and apparently your method of building a bullpen in 2006 and 2007 now. If you can't see it doesn't work to throw a bunch of crap out there by now, especially when you have no one in the minor leagues you can plug in, than you will never see it. The entire bullpen is being paid $3.6 million this season. The White Sox payroll is $109 million which includes the money they are being given by other clubs. They have budgeted 3% of their payroll to the entire bullpen, and they wonder why they suck. Hawk made a comment last night that shocked me, but I sort of agree with it now. He said its getting to the point where its more important to have a dominant bullpen than a dominant rotation. The Sox spend all this money on the rotation and what kind of consistent results have they gotten from them?

 

So in the current marketplace for pitching, which the White Sox unintentionally contributed to by having such a great staff in 05' and winning with it, what pitchers would you have brought in this year? Look at what's happened to MOST of the big money relievers that teams signed in the past few years. BJ Ryan, was great, but now he's out for the year. The guy makes what, $8 million? Flash Gordon...been out much of the year, makes $7 million? Look at Scott Eyre. He's as bad as Aardsma or Mac have been. Or you could do what the Indians have done- signing old fart has beens and watching them suck terribly.

 

I guess I just keep seeing you complain and complain and complain about the bullpen and yet you offer absolutely no alternative plan besides throwing more payroll at fantom relievers that don't exist. Lead us all to this "marginally cheap yet consistently effective" reliever tree you have found.

 

Can you imagine where we might be had we signed the relievers that pitched so well in 05' for us to extensions? Look at where all those guys are right now. If that doesn't show you how volatile bullpens are than I don't know what will.

 

I'll tell you what, I agree that KW's bullpen has failed us this year. But I'm amazingly thankful that what has failed has accounted for only 3% of the payroll. Imagine the situation we'd have been in had we been shelling out big money to our relievers over the past several years.

 

Additionally, it's very easy to see how things have fallen apart when they might not have had to. Had Mac and Thornton pitched as we all thought they would this season, there aren't a whole lot of other critical innings needed by guys like Aardsma or anyone else. And yet Mac has been horrible and Thornton amazingly inconsistent. That's just more proof of how volatile bullpens are from year to year.

 

As another poster has said, our offense has let us down more than the bullpen. The bullpen has not been anywhere close to acceptable, but it doesn't have to be very good if the offense had been scoring runs as they should be. And if they were, we'd be looking extremely similar to Cleveland right now.

Edited June 19, 2007 by iamshack

[daa84]

my guess is that the only way we resign buerhle is if KW is somehow able to find a way to deal contreras before the deadline

[Wanne]

my guess is that the only way we resign buerhle is if KW is somehow able to find a way to deal contreras before the deadline

 

As well as Javy IMO. Resigning Mark is a must I think and build around Mark, Garland and Danks...and go from there. All this talk about rebuilding the rotation for the upcoming years...really makes me regret they didn't have the naddies to take Porcello.

[daa84]

As well as Javy IMO. Resigning Mark is a must I think and build around Mark, Garland and Danks...and go from there. All this talk about rebuilding the rotation for the upcoming years...really makes me regret they didn't have the naddies to take Porcello.

well procello is probably 3 years away at least i would think

[BearSox]

What if Buehrle has another second half like last year?

[Rowand44]

What if Buehrle has another second half like last year?

He wont.

[Dick Allen]

So in the current marketplace for pitching, which the White Sox unintentionally contributed to by having such a great staff in 05' and winning with it, what pitchers would you have brought in this year? Look at what's happened to MOST of the big money relievers that teams signed in the past few years. BJ Ryan, was great, but now he's out for the year. The guy makes what, $8 million? Flash Gordon...been out much of the year, makes $7 million? Look at Scott Eyre. He's as bad as Aardsma or Mac have been. Or you could do what the Indians have done- signing old fart has beens and watching them suck terribly.

 

I guess I just keep seeing you complain and complain and complain about the bullpen and yet you offer absolutely no alternative plan besides throwing more payroll and fantom relievers that don't exist. Lead us all to this "marginally cheap yet consistently effective" reliever tree you have found.

 

Can you imagine where we might be had we signed the relievers that pitched so well in 05' for us to extensions? Look at where all those guys are right now. If that doesn't show you how volatile bullpens are than I don't know what will.

 

I'll tell you what, I agree that KW's bullpen has failed us this year. But I'm amazingly thankful that what has failed has accounted for only 3% of the payroll. Imagine the situation we'd have been in had we been shelling out big money to our relievers over the past several years.

 

Additionally, it's very easy to see how things have fallen apart when they might not have had to. Had Mac and Thornton pitched as we all thought they would this season, there aren't a whole lot of other critical innings needed by guys like Aardsma or anyone else. And yet Mac has been horrible and Thornton amazingly inconsistent. That's just more proof of how volatile bullpens are from year to year.

 

As another poster has said, our offense has let us down more than the bullpen. The bullpen has not been anywhere close to acceptable, but it doesn't have to be very good if the offense had been scoring runs as they should be. And if they were, we'd be looking extremely similar to Cleveland right now.

Well for one, if you've been watching me complain I have mentioned Justin Speier about 10,000 times. I know he's on the DL, but its an intestinal infection, not an arm injury, and its probably debatable whether or not he would have had the infection in a different environment. But his $4 million a year was deemed too much, so a team with a bullpen far superior to the White Sox signed him. If they had pitched like you thought, you say about MacDougal Thornton and Aaardsma. How, if you are of the opinion relievers are a crapshoot can you have any reasonable expectation as to how they will perform with such little track record. MacDougal is an injury waiting to happen, Thornton was nice last year, but sucked so much previously he wasn't going to make the Mariners and Aardsma was horrible until he had a little success in meaningless games for the Cubs. If bullpens are such a crapshoot why is it when I said trade Politte right after the 2005 season, because it was so far and away better than his norm and he was almost a lock to fall apart, was I laughed at by the guys who say bullpens are volatile? If you really believe that, you can never say a bullpen is solid coming into the season. And there were plenty of people on this site that thought the Sox had one of the best bullpens in baseball coming into this season. Building a bullpen from within would be ideal, but the White Sox don't have the pitchers to do it.

[BearSox]

He wont.

how do you know?

[vandy125]

As well as Javy IMO. Resigning Mark is a must I think and build around Mark, Garland and Danks...and go from there. All this talk about rebuilding the rotation for the upcoming years...really makes me regret they didn't have the naddies to take Porcello.

And how much money is it going to take to sign him, if he is signable....? Wouldn't that also cut away from being able to afford Mark's contract?

[Steff]

He wont.

 

 

Oye...

[BearSox]

After 13 starts last year, Mark Buehrle had an ERA of 3.13. After 13 starts this year, Buehrle has an ERA of 3.45... hmm

[iamshack]

Well for one, if you've been watching me complain I have mentioned Justin Speier about 10,000 times. I know he's on the DL, but its an intestinal infection, not an arm injury, and its probably debatable whether or not he would have had the infection in a different environment. But his $4 million a year was deemed too much, so a team with a bullpen far superior to the White Sox signed him. If they had pitched like you thought, you say about MacDougal Thornton and Aaardsma. How, if you are of the opinion relievers are a crapshoot can you have any reasonable expectation as to how they will perform with such little track record. MacDougal is an injury waiting to happen, Thornton was nice last year, but sucked so much previously he wasn't going to make the Mariners and Aardsma was horrible until he had a little success in meaningless games for the Cubs. If bullpens are such a crapshoot why is it when I said trade Politte right after the 2005 season, because it was so far and away better than his norm and he was almost a lock to fall apart, was I laughed at by the guys who say bullpens are volatile? If you really believe that, you can never say a bullpen is solid coming into the season. And there were plenty of people on this site that thought the Sox had one of the best bullpens in baseball coming into this season. Building a bullpen from within would be ideal, but the White Sox don't have the pitchers to do it.

 

Ok, so Justin Speier. You can name one guy. If we'd have only signed Justin Speier, we would be well on our way to another division title right now.

 

I agree, bullpen's are incredibly volatile. But the only thing you can do is hope that guys who succeeded in critical innings last season maintain some semblance of what they did last year.

 

I suppose maybe it's getting to the point where it might be advisable to trade your solid pen guys for prospects each year because the odds of them repeating are not good.

[Dick Allen]

Ok, so Justin Speier. You can name one guy. If we'd have only signed Justin Speier, we would be well on our way to another division title right now.

 

I agree, bullpen's are incredibly volatile. But the only thing you can do is hope that guys who succeeded in critical innings last season maintain some semblance of what they did last year.

 

I suppose maybe it's getting to the point where it might be advisable to trade your solid pen guys for prospects each year because the odds of them repeating are not good.

I also liked Otsuka from Texas. He was available, but makes over the minimum so no dice. How can anyone possibly think the White Sox bullpen coming into this season was anything but a question mark? As I said in the winter, at least KW didn't do what he did the previous season, and just totally ignore it when he had the pitch off of crap in Tucson. If you are going to compete for a championship, you better have a decent bullpen, and relying on a bunch of guys used to losing is playing with fire.

[Wanne]

And how much money is it going to take to sign him, if he is signable....? Wouldn't that also cut away from being able to afford Mark's contract?

 

What is Price expected to get?....$6-7M deal? Last year's top college pitcher, Andrew Miller, got a four-year, $5.5-million major-league deal from Detroit, and it's safe to assume Price seeks more. Luke Hochevar got $3.5M last year as the second overall or something around there.

 

Yeah...that'll break the bank. Sure, it's a crap shoot whether he turns out to be good...but I think it was a risk worth taking. Has little to do with the current roster....especially if you're looking to the future and weeding out the likes of Contreas and Javy and the quiche they're making.

[Whitewashed in '05]

Their 3yr rule has worked in the past, but this is one guy you really have to make an exception to. He's a fan favorite, home grown talent, and is one of the most consistent starters in the game. Give him what he wants and extend Garland. If they think they will lose fans by being bad this year they will lose a lot more if Buehrle goes.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

First thing the Sox should try to do is extend Mark's contract with a legitimate fair offer. I agree with the policy of not offering long term contracts to pitchers, but there are exceptions to every rule and I think in Buehrle's case this is an exception. Of course there is risk involved but the way Mark throws it seems reasonable to risk that he won't come down with serious arm trouble for the next five years. This guy just may be another Greg Maddox.

 

If Mark refuses a reasonable five year contract, they'll have to trade him.

 

The second thing the Sox should do, in fact they should be working on this already, is extend Jon Garland's contract.

 

They can build a rotation around Buehrle, Garland and Danks and get whatever they can for Javy and Jose.