White Sox are no longer a TEAM

[VAfan]

I haven't been writing much lately on Soxtalk. It is just so depressing. What I wrote before the season were 7 reasons why I was not optimistic going into this season. The 7th reason -- that the White Sox had no reason to play as a team any more because management announced we aren't paying market rates, so as guys' contracts come up, they are either going to be traded or let go -- is really the overriding one.

 

Ask yourselves this: How did we go from having a bunch of sluggers in 2001-2004 and getting continuosly beat by the "less talented" Minnesota Twins, to copying them and beating them at their own "TEAM" game in 2005, to going back to the disfunctional squad we have now?

 

One trade I think was disastrous for "team" was the one for Javier Vazquez. Not only did we give up our best outfield prospect in Chris Young -- a player we could desperately use today -- but we put a decidedly mediocre pitcher who had never helped us win anything at the front of the line for team money. His $10 million/year annual money would have been far better spent split between re-signing Mark Buehrle and Jermaine Dye, two TEAM guys who are now just marking their time until they are shown the door.

 

Another trade I think has turned out extremely bad was sending Aaron Rowand away to Philly. As I've reflected on this, one of the strengths of that 2005 team was that, while we may not have had any superstars, we also didn't have any weak links, at least once Joe Crede and Juan Uribe started tearing the cover off the ball late in the year. By dumping Rowand for Thome, we added offensive production in the middle, but at the cost of sending out a home-grown tough guy who would run through a wall (literally) to win, and at the cost of putting an automatic out in the lineup. If we wanted Thome, could we have sent Anderson or some other guys instead?

 

Two more moves that have been bad for team cohesion was wasting money to sign Pods and Erstad for a year. These guys are worthless. Either put competent veterans into these slots or save the money (add it to the re-sign Buehrle/Dye/Iguchi kitty) and rotate the kids (Anderson/Sweeney/Owens/Terrero/Fields/etc.) until a couple of them step up and start playing. One of the things that keeps the Twins playing like a team is that they promote from within, adding pieces from outside only when necessary (or when they can rob the Giants, like in the Pierzynski trade).

 

At this point, there is no hope of putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again. KW should trade off all the pieces ala Florida and get back the best guys he can in return. The problem is that we don't have a single position player we can rebuild around. Dye is our best player, but this year has shown that investing in him long-term would be risky. I think he has 2-3 more great years in him, but there's a chance he might not. Konerko is the only guy signed long term, but we've seen that he's not terribly reliable himself. Thome will be fine to keep as long as his contract runs, but he's not worth re-upping. Every other position player on the roster should be moved, with the exception of Josh Fields. We need more guys like Josh Fields.

 

As far as starting pitching goes, I would try to rebuild around Garland and Danks. I would trade Buehrle now, and Vazquez and Contreras in the offseason. Everyone in the bullpen except Bobby Jenks would go.

 

It is a depressing scene to see a World Series champion disintegrate so completely, so quickly. But now that it's becoming more apparent why it disintegrated, the way forward toward rebuilding is also clearer.

[AirScott]

Well, one of the things the players always said in the 2005 run was that they always wanted to pick each other up after making a mistake, and when it was close and they were down in the late innings, they always felt like they could come back.

 

Now for that last one, what gives a team that mentality? Is it just something they say as it keeps happening, or is it the team's make-up? Two of our most fiery players from 2005 who have departed are Aaron Rowand and Carl Everett. Were they responsible for that never-say-die mentality?

 

Or could it be the underdog thing? Nobody predicted we'd do much in 2000. Then the next few years we were AL Central favorites. Then the media stopped believing in us, we changed the team identity and were predicted to finish 3rd or 4th in 2005, then won the whole thing. Now last year it was really World Series or bust.

 

Frankly, we got slow fast. That obviously has something to do with it. Pods, Erstad and Ozuna went down. Willie Harris wasn't brought back after 2005. But just what happened to the clutch hitting?

[RibbieRubarb]

Ask yourselves this: How did we go from having a bunch of sluggers in 2001-2004 and getting continuosly beat by the "less talented" Minnesota Twins, to copying them and beating them at their own "TEAM" game in 2005, to going back to the disfunctional squad we have now?

 

One trade I think was disastrous for "team" was the one for Javier Vazquez. Not only did we give up our best outfield prospect in Chris Young -- a player we could desperately use today -- but we put a decidedly mediocre pitcher who had never helped us win anything at the front of the line for team money. His $10 million/year annual money would have been far better spent split between re-signing Mark Buehrle and Jermaine Dye, two TEAM guys who are now just marking their time until they are shown the door.

 

Another trade I think has turned out extremely bad was sending Aaron Rowand away to Philly. As I've reflected on this, one of the strengths of that 2005 team was that, while we may not have had any superstars, we also didn't have any weak links, at least once Joe Crede and Juan Uribe started tearing the cover off the ball late in the year. By dumping Rowand for Thome, we added offensive production in the middle, but at the cost of sending out a home-grown tough guy who would run through a wall (literally) to win, and at the cost of putting an automatic out in the lineup. If we wanted Thome, could we have sent Anderson or some other guys instead?

 

Two more moves that have been bad for team cohesion was wasting money to sign Pods and Erstad for a year. These guys are worthless. Either put competent veterans into these slots or save the money (add it to the re-sign Buehrle/Dye/Iguchi kitty) and rotate the kids (Anderson/Sweeney/Owens/Terrero/Fields/etc.) until a couple of them step up and start playing. One of the things that keeps the Twins playing like a team is that they promote from within, adding pieces from outside only when necessary (or when they can rob the Giants, like in the Pierzynski trade).

 

At this point, there is no hope of putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again. KW should trade off all the pieces ala Florida and get back the best guys he can in return. The problem is that we don't have a single position player we can rebuild around. Dye is our best player, but this year has shown that investing in him long-term would be risky. I think he has 2-3 more great years in him, but there's a chance he might not. Konerko is the only guy signed long term, but we've seen that he's not terribly reliable himself. Thome will be fine to keep as long as his contract runs, but he's not worth re-upping. Every other position player on the roster should be moved, with the exception of Josh Fields. We need more guys like Josh Fields.

 

As far as starting pitching goes, I would try to rebuild around Garland and Danks. I would trade Buehrle now, and Vazquez and Contreras in the offseason. Everyone in the bullpen except Bobby Jenks would go.

 

It is a depressing scene to see a World Series champion disintegrate so completely, so quickly. But now that it's becoming more apparent why it disintegrated, the way forward toward rebuilding is also clearer.

 

You make some good points, but...

How do you know what Philly would have accepted in the Thome deal? They wanted a MLB ready centerfielder to which you say Anderson isn't. So why would Philly have taken Anderson + prospects for Thome?

 

The Twins were able to trade a player with AJ's caliber because they had Joe Mauer waiting in the wings...

How did they get a Joe Mauer?

The averaged 90+ loses thoughout the 90s and early 2000.

The Sox?

Stayed competitive thought the decades. Lower draft picks.

 

Be careful what you wish for...you want the Sox to trade everyone and rebuild then you give up the right to moan about bad play and low attendence while the "young kids" develop. This includes not getting big name free agents.

[LVSoxFan]

I think VAfan has some nice points, although watch it with that Rowand talk, because there are some here that will open fire on you for that.

 

The only point I disagree on is: Buehrle. I'd build my pitching around him, Garland and Danks.

 

But, we have nothing else to trade for right? So it's a pickle.

 

What a mess! You're right about the this far/this fast point--I thought last year tanked because there was probably some fatigue/hangover from 2005. I still believe that with the pitchers (notice this year) but HELL I never thought 2007 would be even worse!!!

[AirScott]

I think VAfan has some nice points, although watch it with that Rowand talk, because there are some here that will open fire on you for that.

 

The only point I disagree on is: Buehrle. I'd build my pitching around him, Garland and Danks.

 

But, we have nothing else to trade for right? So it's a pickle.

 

What a mess! You're right about the this far/this fast point--I thought last year tanked because there was probably some fatigue/hangover from 2005. I still believe that with the pitchers (notice this year) but HELL I never thought 2007 would be even worse!!!

Don't forget the WBC, which really stands as the only possible explanation for his 5th inning woes. You could also point a finger at that for Freddy Garcia's loss of velocity, too.

Edited June 21, 2007 by AirScott

[LVSoxFan]

I think the WBC is one of the dumbest ideas ever. I'm suprised that MLB owners signed off on it.

[Gregory Pratt]

I think the World Baseball Classic is fantastic and I'd think so if every pitcher who was involved in it had their arms fall off.

 

Oh, and you can't really blame the WBC for Garcia or Vazquez. First of all, Vazquez' velocity was fine last year. Second: that excuse for Garcia is too convenient. He's thrown a lot of innings, and that was his problem. Maybe it added to it a little, but I doubt it added much significantly.

 

The WBC was great for baseball all over the world. Oh, I didn't really like the pitch count rules, but it was great all the same.

 

Just kind of wish America had won.

[SoxFan1]

I think the World Baseball Classic is fantastic and I'd think so if every pitcher who was involved in it had their arms fall off.

 

Oh, and you can't really blame the WBC for Garcia or Vazquez. First of all, Vazquez' velocity was fine last year. Second: that excuse for Garcia is too convenient. He's thrown a lot of innings, and that was his problem. Maybe it added to it a little, but I doubt it added much significantly.

The WBC was great for baseball all over the world. Oh, I didn't really like the pitch count rules, but it was great all the same.

 

Just kind of wish America had won.

Wrong. Every country, especially the US, had players sissy out and worry about injuries and not play. It was a bad idea and it was not good for baseball.

[BigSqwert]

It was a bad idea and it was not good for baseball.

That is your opinion. My opinion is the exact opposite.

 

A lot of MLB teams had players represented in the WBC not just the Sox.

[Gregory Pratt]

Wrong. Every country, especially the US, had players sissy out and worry about injuries and not play. It was a bad idea and it was not good for baseball.

 

It wasn't about the star power, though. You tell the people who packed the stadiums and the millions who watched all over the world as their countries got to play for the first time in a massive international display and tell them it was "bad" for baseball.

[SoxFan1]

It wasn't about the star power, though. You tell the people who packed the stadiums and the millions who watched all over the world as their countries got to play for the first time in a massive international display and tell them it was "bad" for baseball.

I don't think you understand my stance. The premise is great, but knowing that so many players would decline and not play is what killed the whole thing. In soccer, players would kill to play for their national team. In the NBA and MLB, players are offered a spot and decline citing injuries, prior engagements, etc. The WBC will never be a great tournament because for the most part, Americans would rather represent the Boston Red Sox or LA Angels than their own country.

 

It was never set for success. In Japan and the other secondary baseball countries, yes, it was huge, because their players actually showed up and wanted to represent their country and win. The fans liked it because, like you said, it was the 1st time they could see their own country in international play in baseball. But I know that if my country is in a tournament and all the top players decline, I wouldn't be nearly as excited. Would I still root? Of course. Would I care as much? Hell no.

Edited June 21, 2007 by SoxFan1

[witesoxfan]

Wrong. Every country, especially the US, had players sissy out and worry about injuries and not play. It was a bad idea and it was not good for baseball.

 

And that was before America got their s*** handed to them. A game that is supposedly America's past time, and here we are losing in the first round. What's that say about us?

 

I imagine there will be a much better turn out next time around.

[Gregory Pratt]

I don't think you understand my stance. The premise is great, but knowing that so many players would decline and not play is what killed the whole thing. In soccer, players would kill to play for their national team. In the NBA and MLB, players are offered a spot and decline citing injuries, prior engagements, etc. The WBC will never be a great tournament because for the most part, Americans would rather represent the Boston Red Sox or LA Angels than their own country.

 

It was never set for success. In Japan and the other secondary baseball countries, yes, it was huge, because their players actually showed up and wanted to represent their country and win. The fans liked it because, like you said, it was the 1st time they could see their own country in international play in baseball. But I know that if my country is in a tournament and all the top players decline, I wouldn't be nearly as excited. Would I still root? Of course. Would I care as much? Hell no.

 

Who cares about you? Who cares about me? The WBC has nothing to do with us, and we don't determine if it was good for baseball. The rest of the world does. The ratings do. The turnout by fans does.

[SoxFan1]

And that was before America got their s*** handed to them. A game that is supposedly America's past time, and here we are losing in the first round. What's that say about us?

 

I imagine there will be a much better turn out next time around.

Everyone said the same thing when the US finished 6th in the World Championships for basketball in 2002. The next time out, there were even fewer NBA stars.

[Gregory Pratt]

I didn't care for our lineup in the WBC. Too star oriented.

[SoxFan1]

Who cares about you? Who cares about me? The WBC has nothing to do with us, and we don't determine if it was good for baseball. The rest of the world does. The ratings do. The turnout by fans does.

Not necessarily. The turnout is ALWAYS going to be good for any sort of international competition. I'm saying that it's a travesty that so many players didn't want to participate.

[Gregory Pratt]

No it isn't. Plenty of people participated for their countries except for American players, but we STILL had one hell of a turnout.q

[SoxFan1]

No it isn't. Plenty of people participated for their countries except for American players, but we STILL had one hell of a turnout.q

What don't you get? The turnout has no correlation with the team that is fielded. They could have had an all minor league team and the turnout would still be great.

[Gregory Pratt]

And it would've been great for baseball. What part don't you get? The added attention, the passion of the fans -- great for baseball.

 

How the hell do you gauge success for the WBC? By whether or not Barry Bonds and Mark Buehrle play for Team USA? Give me a break.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Another trade I think has turned out extremely bad was sending Aaron Rowand away to Philly. As I've reflected on this, one of the strengths of that 2005 team was that, while we may not have had any superstars, we also didn't have any weak links, at least once Joe Crede and Juan Uribe started tearing the cover off the ball late in the year. By dumping Rowand for Thome, we added offensive production in the middle, but at the cost of sending out a home-grown tough guy who would run through a wall (literally) to win, and at the cost of putting an automatic out in the lineup.

True.

 

Well, one of the things the players always said in the 2005 run was that they always wanted to pick each other up after making a mistake, and when it was close and they were down in the late innings, they always felt like they could come back.

 

Now for that last one, what gives a team that mentality? Is it just something they say as it keeps happening, or is it the team's make-up? Two of our most fiery players from 2005 who have departed are Aaron Rowand and Carl Everett. Were they responsible for that never-say-die mentality?Or could it be the underdog thing? Nobody predicted we'd do much in 2000. Then the next few years we were AL Central favorites. Then the media stopped believing in us, we changed the team identity and were predicted to finish 3rd or 4th in 2005, then won the whole thing. Now last year it was really World Series or bust.

 

Frankly, we got slow fast. That obviously has something to do with it. Pods, Erstad and Ozuna went down. Willie Harris wasn't brought back after 2005. But just what happened to the clutch hitting?

Yes.

Edited June 21, 2007 by South Side Fireworks Man

[Felix]

But just what happened to the clutch hitting?

No more Timo

[SoxFan1]

And it would've been great for baseball. What part don't you get? The added attention, the passion of the fans -- great for baseball.

 

How the hell do you gauge success for the WBC? By whether or not Barry Bonds and Mark Buehrle play for Team USA? Give me a break.

Hell, if that's your reasoning, then lets have a World ThumbWars Cup. The turnout will be great! But unfortunately, Lichtenstein's #1 thumb wrestler is out due to injury.

Edited June 21, 2007 by SoxFan1

[Gregory Pratt]

Hell, if that's your reasoning, then lets have a World ThumbWars Cup. The turnout will be great! But unfortunately, Lichtenstein's #1 thumb wrestler is out due to injury.

 

You're being ridiculous. World ThumbWars Cup. We should make you referee it just for bringing up such a stupid idea.

 

But on another note, I was out with a friend and she started to thumbwrestle me recently.

 

Where the hell is thumbwrestling coming from?

 

And also: What #1 American declined to participate? There were some damn talented players on the USA roster. Let's call Alex Rodriguez the #1 American. He participated.

 

And while we're asking questions, I want to know who let the dogs out

[SoxFan1]

You're being ridiculous. World ThumbWars Cup. We should make you referee it just for bringing up such a stupid idea.

 

But on another note, I was out with a friend and she started to thumbwrestle me recently.

 

Where the hell is thumbwrestling coming from?

 

And also: What #1 American declined to participate? There were some damn talented players on the USA roster. Let's call Alex Rodriguez the #1 American. He participated.

 

And while we're asking questions, I want to know who let the dogs out

Well, considering Alex Rodriguez is Dominican...

[Gregory Pratt]

Born and raised here. I know we've been over this, though, where you don't consider yourself an American because your ancestors are Serbian, and I suppose you don't consider him an American because of his family. To that I say, There is no answer. You believe what you want to believe. I believe that Rodriguez played for us. He lives here. He's always lived here. He's an American.