If Buehrle is traded.....

[Dick Allen]

McCarthy was criticized because he was hailed as some sort of savior for the better part of three years. Sisco and Masset are guys new to the organization, with Sisco especially being a guy no one expected all that much from. That's simply not a good comparison.

 

Masset clearly needs to go down and start in AAA, but because the rest of these pitchers have let us down, it's difficult to do that right now. However, if this goes on for another few weeks, there is probably a pretty good chance Masset gets sent down to work on starting and throwing more strikes.

McCarthy got everyone excited in spring training of 2005 when he was for the most part lights out. He was good his first major league start against the Cubs but then was pummelled. He then came back and took over for an injured El Duque and was lights out. He then wasn't part of the postseason roster, and Vazquez was acquired and McCarthy relegated to a relief role. Hardly a savior for 3 years. And unlike Masset and Sisco he had shown he actually could be a decent starter in the minors and had success starting in the major leagues. Just because someone is new to an organization doesn't mean you shouldn't look at their past. McCarthy happens to be younger than them both, just to add to it. McCarthy was totally written off as awful when he failed as a reliever, but 2 guys older, with less success in the minor and major leagues, who can't throw strikes to save their lives, are thought of as potential starters on this board. Crazy. In fact, if Jon Danks had McCarthy's major league numbers in 2005 this season, there would be numerous threads about where his statue is going to be placed.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Dick Allen

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2007 -> 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO, KW would want Floyd in the rotation.

Looks like KW will try to be true to his word because he said he wouldn't trade a starter unless the product in return would help the major league team for 2007.

[iamshack]

McCarthy got everyone excited in spring training of 2005 when he was for the most part lights out. He was good his first major league start against the Cubs but then was pummelled. He then came back and took over for an injured El Duque and was lights out. He then wasn't part of the postseason roster, and Vazquez was acquired and McCarthy relegated to a relief role. Hardly a savior for 3 years. And unlike Masset and Sisco he had shown he actually could be a decent starter in the minors and had success starting in the major leagues. Just because someone is new to an organization doesn't mean you shouldn't look at their past. McCarthy happens to be younger than them both, just to add to it. McCarthy was totally written off as awful when he failed as a reliever, but 2 guys older, with less success in the minor and major leagues, who can't throw strikes to save their lives, are thought of as potential starters on this board. Crazy. In fact, if Jon Danks had McCarthy's major league numbers in 2005 this season, there would be numerous threads about where his statue is going to be placed.

 

I didn't say a thing about what their actual potential is or was. You made the point that McCarthy was criticized on this board for being poor as a reliever and I explained why to you. McCarthy being criticized had everything to do with the perception of him by Sox fans. Obviously many of us didn't have that perception of Masset or Sisco, and so they haven't been analyzed as McCarthy has. Additionally, most of us haven't been exposed to Masset and Sisco as much as McCarthy and so we tend to buy into what we are told about them rather than what it is we all saw with our own eyes with McCarthy.

[LVSoxFan]

I agree I think McCarthy got shafted when he was shoehorned into a reliever role he wasn't meant to have and when that didn't work, the Sox used it against him.

 

And isn't that really KW's blunder, and not McCarthy's?

[T R U]

Aaron Cook, Clay Hensley, Shawn Hill

 

All three are sinkerballers who were old for their league. All three posted worse numbers than Eggy.

 

He's a legit prospect. He's not going to be a 1 or 2, but a solid 3-4 for cheap is very likely.

 

a solid 3-4?

 

Ill believe it when I see it

[Felix]

Because hes 24 years old and in AA and hes all the sudden going to come in and be in our rotation? I personally don't think hes ever going to pitch in the MLB, and the love fest with him is just mind boggling to me.

Yea, calling up 24 year old pitchers from AA never works

[Dick Allen]

I didn't say a thing about what their actual potential is or was. You made the point that McCarthy was criticized on this board for being poor as a reliever and I explained why to you. McCarthy being criticized had everything to do with the perception of him by Sox fans. Obviously many of us didn't have that perception of Masset or Sisco, and so they haven't been analyzed as McCarthy has. Additionally, most of us haven't been exposed to Masset and Sisco as much as McCarthy and so we tend to buy into what we are told about them rather than what it is we all saw with our own eyes with McCarthy.

Your explaination was flawed with misinformation. Maybe you shouldn't believe everything KW tells you. KW was talking him up as a reliever. He dominated the Mexican League this past winter. If, well he's better as a starter is true for Masset and Sisco, and I have yet to hear that from someone in the White Sox organization, just from some comments on this board, it should be true that McCarthy would be better as a starter, if not for the sole reason, that he has been. We will see where this ends up. I still think people pulled the trigger on a KW steal with this Texas trade way too early. McCarthy is going to be a good pitcher. Danks probably will be one too, but his numbers this year are similar if not worse than McCarthy's last season when Brandon suddenly was a bust and will never be any good according to a few on this board.

[T R U]

Yea, calling up 24 year old pitchers from AA never works

 

Hey EXCELLENT example.. a closer who throws 100 mph and had amazing stuff, this really compares well to Egbert and every pitcher that Cheat named..

[Felix]

Hey EXCELLENT example.. a closer who throws 100 mph and had amazing stuff, this really compares well to Egbert and every pitcher that Cheat named..

Wasn't comparing them at all, other than their age and what level they were at when they were called up, which I thought was your biggest problem with Egbert (since you've yet to mention a single other thing about him, other than the fact that you don't like him) from reading these posts.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Felix

[T R U]

Wasn't comparing them at all, other than their age and what level they were at when they were called up, which I thought was your biggest problem with Egbert (since you've yet to mention a single other thing about him, other than the fact that you don't like him) from reading these posts.

 

I have zero faith in any pitcher from this organization coming up and producing at the MLB level, especially thinking a 24 year old from AA is going to be a 3-4 starter.. give me a break

[iamshack]

Your explaination was flawed with misinformation. Maybe you shouldn't believe everything KW tells you. KW was talking him up as a reliever. He dominated the Mexican League this past winter. If, well he's better as a starter is true for Masset and Sisco, and I have yet to hear that from someone in the White Sox organization, just from some comments on this board, it should be true that McCarthy would be better as a starter, if not for the sole reason, that he has been. We will see where this ends up. I still think people pulled the trigger on a KW steal with this Texas trade way too early. McCarthy is going to be a good pitcher. Danks probably will be one too, but his numbers this year are similar if not worse than McCarthy's last season when Brandon suddenly was a bust and will never be any good according to a few on this board.

 

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. Despite McCarthy's failures out of the bullpen last season, few, if any Sox fans were calling him a bust. Perhaps their opinion of him was lessened, but he was still considered a highly talented young pitcher by the vast majority of Sox fans (If you need to review, please check the thread where he was traded).

 

The point you are trying to make in that McCarthy was roundly criticized because of his failures out of the bullpen, whereas Masset and Sisco have not been treated as harshly, is entirely based on the perceptions of the fans and that is all I am trying to get across to you. It's obvious that someone who has been built up by the organization is going to have higher expectations than a rule 5 pick who was brutally mishandled by the Royals and a reliever from the Texas organization whose claim to fame is his work in the Mexican League.

 

Certainly we heard great things about Masset, but I don't think we've seen quite enough of him to deem him a failure quite yet, which is what you seem to be asking us to do. And I repeat, no one but the most reactionary of fans were calling McCarthy a bust after his bullpen failures. Certainly, his image was tarnished a bit, but that is to be expected when an organization builds a guy up like McCarthy was built up and then he doesn't quite live up to those expectations.

 

You accuse me of believing everything KW tells me, and yet you are the one that seemingly bought into everything KW had to say about McCarthy. In this instance, I am not believing what KW told me, but rather, what I have seen with my own eyes- a guy in Masset who has easily good enough stuff to be a starter in this league if he can learn to throw more strikes.

Edited June 21, 2007 by iamshack

[Gregory Pratt]

Heads, get in here and defend your man!

[whitesoxfan101]

I have zero faith in any pitcher from this organization coming up and producing at the MLB level, especially thinking a 24 year old from AA is going to be a 3-4 starter.. give me a break

 

Now THAT is a fair response. If you had put that as your first response I'd have left you alone .

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Didn't Stone also say Masset would be a devastating reliever this year? You can't start if you can't throw strikes. Its amazing the criticism McCarthy got on this board when he suddenly became a relief pitcher and wasn't successful, but Masset and Sisco get nothing but the benefit of the doubt saying they should be starters. Considering Massset is 32-45 with a 4.53 ERA in his minor league career, I don't know where anyone can come to the conclusion this guy is much of anything.

 

Stone only THINKS he knows everything.

 

[Chet Lemon]

He dominated the Mexican League this past winter.

[quickman]

Wasn't comparing them at all, other than their age and what level they were at when they were called up, which I thought was your biggest problem with Egbert (since you've yet to mention a single other thing about him, other than the fact that you don't like him) from reading these posts.

 

 

I agree 100 percent the guy barely cracks the spring training lineup. He may make it for a cup of coffee when we sink below the royals but forget it. The guys on the board fall in love with these long shots all the time.

[BearSox]

So what if Eggy is 24. He went to 3 years of college and this is only his 3rd year in professional baseball, and he has succeeded with flying colors every level he's been at. He is arguably having his best season in the minors now, and will likely be promoted to AAA within a month or so.

 

What is so freaking wrong about being a 24 compared to 23 or even 22 in AA? He wasn't a top draft prospect and wasn't drafted until the 13 round, so you don't expect him to fly right through the organization like someone within the first 5 rounds or so, even if he did spend 3 seasons in college.

 

What the hell would be so wrong if Egbert doesn't come up until he is 25-26 as a pitcher? Would he be too old or something?

 

I have zero faith in any pitcher from this organization coming up and producing at the MLB level, especially thinking a 24 year old from AA is going to be a 3-4 starter.. give me a break

What about Gio? He sucks to I bet.

[T R U]

What about Gio? He sucks to I bet.

 

I have my doubts about Gio as well.. Until any of these guys come to the major league level and produce I am not going to annoint them our future 2-3-4 starters.. I just don't agree at all with people already saying Egbert is in contention to come in if Buehrle is traded and be a solid end of the rotation starter, are you kidding me?

 

Can they at least get to our AAA and do something of note before we start penciling them in for future rotation spots.. You would think after all the prospects we have brought up this year that haven't done jack you'd be a little more thoughtful when projecting some of these guys.

 

Now dont get me wrong, I like Gio. And when he gets to AAA if he puts up the same numbers as he has in AA and lower then maybe ill feel a little better about him. However, there is no way I am getting excited over Jack Egbert. He is just a Soxtalk love obsession.

[BearSox]

I have my doubts about Gio as well.. Until any of these guys come to the major league level and produce I am not going to annoint them our future 2-3-4 starters.. I just don't agree at all with people already saying Egbert is in contention to come in if Buehrle is traded and be a solid end of the rotation starter, are you kidding me?

 

Can they at least get to our AAA and do something of note before we start penciling them in for future rotation spots.. You would think after all the prospects we have brought up this year that haven't done jack you'd be a little more thoughtful when projecting some of these guys.

 

Now dont get me wrong, I like Gio. And when he gets to AAA if he puts up the same numbers as he has in AA and lower then maybe ill feel a little better about him. However, there is no way I am getting excited over Jack Egbert. He is just a Soxtalk love obsession.

Okay, that is a fair statement. I don't think Eggy will be ready for at least a year or so as well. But I think he could be a future 3 or 4. I just really didn't like how you were already annointing him as suckface who will never see the majors. That was completely asinine.

[T R U]

Okay, that is a fair statement. I don't think Eggy will be ready for at least a year or so as well. But I think he could be a future 3 or 4. I just really didn't like how you were already annointing him as suckface who will never see the majors. That was completely asinine.

 

I do think hes a suckface who will never reach the majors, sorry, but thats just what I think.. and until he DOES reach the majors, I am correct

[Chisoxfn]

Who would you like to see get the first shot in the rotation? And you can put several guys in an order you like in case there are also injuries/somebody struggling/other trades.

 

The list of guys I immediately think of is Masset, Broadway, Floyd, Russell, Egbert, and Gio. Here is my list:

 

1. Masset (I'm really curious what he would do as a starter)

2. Floyd (With his age, now or never point is nearing as he pitches better at AAA)

3. Egbert (His GO/AO and our ballpark seem like a perfect fit)

 

After that, I don't think Gio is ready, Broadway is doing well at AAA but I don't trust his control enough with the 2 seamer yet, and Russell is struggling way too much at AA for me to think he's ready.

Gavin Floyd. Second would definitely be Nick Masset as of this moment. I actually wouldn't mind seeing him down in AAA working and being groomed to be a starter just in case the club swings Contreras and Buehrle.

[greg775]

I say the knuckleballer deserves the nod.

[witesoxfan]

I have my doubts about Gio as well.. Until any of these guys come to the major league level and produce I am not going to annoint them our future 2-3-4 starters.. I just don't agree at all with people already saying Egbert is in contention to come in if Buehrle is traded and be a solid end of the rotation starter, are you kidding me?

 

You can easily say that about any given minor league player in the history of time. The fact of the matter is through scouting and numbers, you can reasonably determine what a pitcher will likely do upon reaching the majors. That doesn't mean they will; there are busts all the time.

 

And you can agree or disagree as to whether Egbert will be in contention, but it's likely he'll either be up or be traded within the next year and a half and be given a shot at starting for the White Sox. Whether he produces or not is a completely different story, but he'll be given a shot.

 

And no, we are not kidding you.

 

Now dont get me wrong, I like Gio. And when he gets to AAA if he puts up the same numbers as he has in AA and lower then maybe ill feel a little better about him. However, there is no way I am getting excited over Jack Egbert. He is just a Soxtalk love obsession.

 

You don't have to get excited; a pitcher that is projected to be a back end of the rotation starter is really not much to get excited about.

[T R U]

You can easily say that about any given minor league player in the history of time. The fact of the matter is through scouting and numbers, you can reasonably determine what a pitcher will likely do upon reaching the majors. That doesn't mean they will; there are busts all the time.

 

And you can agree or disagree as to whether Egbert will be in contention, but it's likely he'll either be up or be traded within the next year and a half and be given a shot at starting for the White Sox. Whether he produces or not is a completely different story, but he'll be given a shot.

 

Im pretty sure I made it clear my feelings, you're post was pointless..

 

And you should be kidding me when the person who started this has Egbert listed as a person who could come in and pitch if Buehrle was dealt.. so yeah, rethink it

[Jeremy]

Gio is our best pitching prospect and is having the best season of any of our minor league pitchers, even after taking level into account so it's a no brainer for me.