Ozzie extension rumor

[Gregory Pratt]

Sure, but you can't do that to your manager.

[fathom]

Which is why KW deserves so much more blame than Osvaldo.

 

That's the problem.....KW is Ozzie's boy, and vice versa. If KW is trying to say this isn't Ozzie's fault, then it's the player's fault....which should mean it's KW's fault this year. However, we'll keep firing/releasing people who aren't directly involved with this s***.

[Jordan4life_2007]

So what we're saying is that when he gets a pitching staff full of guys having career years (starters and bullpen), he can lead them to the championship? Well, that's great....and I'll gladly keep Ozzie around if we can guarantee having 4 relievers who are basically perfect. However, that was an anomaly that season, and for almost a year now, the Sox have seemed very flat and lethargic. Ozzie's going to have a few years now of young players and being in a position where we're not expected to win over 77 games or so. I just hope he has a lot more patience with the young guys than he's shown. I'm through rooting for him to get fired, as the comments in the media, as stupid as they are, show that he's not going to be the scapegoat.

 

I get so sick of that argument. Out of the starters, only Garland had a career year. Contreras? He had started less than 40 games before 2005. So it's not like he had 3 or 4 mediocre years then blew up in 2005. The 'pen? Yeah, Cotts and Pollite both had career years. And you can throw Hermanson in there as well, atleast until his back fell off. But let's not forget how bad guys like Shingo/Marte/Vizcaino were. And you also fail to mention how brilliantly Ozzie handled Bobby Jenks that year. Again, no manager could win with this old, slow, unathletic group. Guys are breaking down left and right. Minor leaguers, outside of Fields, that have produced nothing. Established, proven guys sucking a fat one all year. Ozzie is the least of this team's problems.

Edited June 23, 2007 by Jordan4life_2007

[GreenSox]

All 3. No manager could win with the AA team we're fielding right now. Andy Gonzalez? Ryan Bukvich? Come on. This is on KW, and solely on KW. How many games have we lost due to Ozzie compared to how many we have lost due to the s*** 25 man roster.

I agree that no one could win with this roster (although Ozzie is doing about as bad a job with it as is possible). I think you significantly underestimate the influence that Ozzie has on personnel.

Who wanted Lee, Ordonez and Frank off this team? That would be Ozzie and his ego.

 

Who wants the free swingers and hackers on the team? Ozzie

 

Who wanted Erstad ahead of the far superior Podsednik? Ozzie because Ozzie loves guys who can hit grounders to either side of the infield, and then run out their copius outs hard.

 

Who wanted Anderson and Sweeney off this team quickly, but had no problem with Owens and his zero walks (until his last game) and zero RBIs for a month? Ozzie.

 

Who actually uses .200 hitters with no power as pinch hitters and, incredibly, as DH? Ozzie.

 

Now this team needed retooling after 03. Thank GOODNESS we won before Guillen got Kenny to completely change this team to, well, what we have this year.

[whitesoxfan101]

That's the other thing, when you are really bad, it's not the players fault. When you are 4th or 5th place bad, it means you don't have enough talent, and that's the GM's fault and can't be debated.

[fathom]

I agree that no one could win with this roster (although Ozzie is doing about as bad a job with it as is possible). I think you significantly underestimate the influence that Ozzie has on personnel.

Who wanted Lee, Ordonez and Frank off this team? That would be Ozzie and his ego.

 

Who wants the free swingers and hackers on the team? Ozzie

 

Who wanted Erstad ahead of the far superior Podsednik? Ozzie because Ozzie loves guys who can hit grounders to either side of the infield, and then run out their copius outs hard.

 

Who wanted Anderson and Sweeney off this team quickly, but had no problem with Owens and his zero walks (until his last game) and zero RBIs for a month? Ozzie.

 

Who actually uses .200 hitters with no power as pinch hitters and, incredibly, as DH? Ozzie.

 

Now this team needed retooling after 03. Thank GOODNESS we won before Guillen got Kenny to completely change this team to, well, what we have this year.

 

Well said...it baffles my mind when people think a manager has no say about who's on the roster.

 

I get so sick of that argument. Out of the starters, only Garland had a career year. Contreras? He had started less than 40 games before 2005. So it's not like he had 3 or 4 mediocre years then blew up in 2005. The 'pen? Yeah, Cotts and Pollite both had career years. And you can throw Hermanson in there as well, atleast until his back fell off. But let's not forget how bad guys like Shingo/Marte/Vizcaino were. And you also fail to mention how brilliantly Ozzie handled Bobby Jenks that year. Again, no manager could win with this old, slow, unathletic group. Guys are breaking down left and right. Minor leaguers, outside of Fields, that have produced nothing. Established, proven guys sucking a fat one all year. Ozzie is the least of this team's problems.

 

Poor Luis...one bad game against the Indians, and he's lumped in with someone who went crazy and someone who was released a few months into the season.

[whitesoxfan101]

Well said...it baffles my mind when people think a manager has no say about who's on the roster.

Poor Luis...one bad game against the Indians, and he's lumped in with someone who went crazy and someone who was released a few months into the season.

 

If this organization is this bad because KW is taking Ozzie's advice, then KW is dumber than I thought and they both should have been fired by now.

[fathom]

If this organization is this bad because KW is taking Ozzie's advice, then KW is dumber than I thought and they both should have been fired by now.

 

That might be the only way either of them is replaced. I really don't want this to happen, and I hope these two can start the rebuilding process immediately.

Edited June 23, 2007 by fathom

[SoxFan1]

I agree that no one could win with this roster (although Ozzie is doing about as bad a job with it as is possible). I think you significantly underestimate the influence that Ozzie has on personnel.

Who wanted Lee, Ordonez and Frank off this team? That would be Ozzie and his ego.

 

Who acquired the free swingers and hackers on the team? KW.

 

Who wanted Erstad ahead of the far superior Podsednik? Pods was injured, Erstad was sadly our hottest hitter.

 

Who wanted Anderson and Sweeney off this team quickly, but had no problem with Owens and his zero walks (until his last game) and zero RBIs for a month? I am not aware of this Sweeney hatred. He was sent down because he wouldn't get consistent AB's in the MLB.

 

Who signed/traded for .200 hitters with no power as pinch hitters and, incredibly, as DH? KW.

 

Now this team needed retooling after 03. Thank GOODNESS we won before Guillen got Kenny to completely change this team to, well, what we have this year.

Edited June 23, 2007 by SoxFan1

[Gregory Pratt]

I'm not going through your whole post, Green, but I'll poke a few holes.

 

Then I'm done with this thread. Going out!

 

Who wanted Lee, Ordonez and Frank off this team? That would be Ozzie and his ego.

 

At least Frank gone was KW, too. As far as Ordonez, he wouldn't go to the doctors they wanted him to go to and then he got a monter contract.

 

Who wants the free swingers and hackers on the team? Ozzie

 

That's it.

 

Who wanted Erstad ahead of the far superior Podsednik? Ozzie because Ozzie loves guys who can hit grounders to either side of the infield, and then run out their copius outs hard.

 

I believe Podsednik DL'ed himself. But neither of them are very good, and it's KW that brought them back.

 

PS: aren't you the one who always gripes about "hackers"? What the hell is Podsednik other than a weak slap hitter with little speed left?

 

Who wanted Anderson and Sweeney off this team quickly, but had no problem with Owens and his zero walks (until his last game) and zero RBIs for a month? Ozzie.

 

Yeah, Owens was Ozzie's master plan.

PS: Anderson + Sweeney needed more time.

 

Who actually uses .200 hitters with no power as pinch hitters and, incredibly, as DH? Ozzie.

 

He doesn't have anything else!

 

Thank GOODNESS we won before Guillen got Kenny to completely change this team to, well, what we have this year.

 

What Ozzie wanted was 2005. Podsednik at his peak, situational hitting, homers. Sorry, but you're way off.

 

I'm sure Ozzie's mandate to KW was, "Give me slow guys. AA relievers. No offense."

 

But other than that, very well done.

 

Well said...it baffles my mind when people think a manager has no say about who's on the roster.

 

Fathom, don't praise green. His post is misleading in almost every sense.

[fathom]

Fathom, don't praise green. His post is misleading in almost every sense.

 

I didn't even read the points he made....I just saw the very top, and was happy that at least someone doesn't think that every decision about personnel is 100 pct KW's doing.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

This season is mostly on KW, but it would be foolish to extend Ozzie. I don't think he should be fired, but I would just let him go into next season without a contract.

[GreenSox]

What Ozzie wanted was 2005. Podsednik at his peak, situational hitting, homers. Sorry, but you're way off.

 

I'm sure Ozzie's mandate to KW was, "Give me slow guys. AA relievers. No offense."

 

But other than that, very well done.

Fathom, don't praise green. His post is misleading in almost every sense.

On edit, I agree with the person above who pointed out that if Williams is doing Ozzie's bidding, then that's Williams' stupidity. That's a good point.

 

Guillen was constantly fighting with Thomas; and Lee. Maggs I don't know about.

Guillen is the one who wanted Rowand off (he can't bunt) - fine - but then wouldn't deal with the young hitter replacement. Guillen is the one who played Mack.

 

Williams signed Erstad as a backup. It was Guillen who was so turned on by his hacking at everything and not wasting at bats with walks, that he marginalized Anderson, and called ERstad is a .400 hitter when he hits .200 (that's exactly what Guillen said). Guillen is the one who said that Erstad bats leadoff when both ERstad and Pods return.

 

You ask who else to pinch hit? How about no pinch hitter, since Cintron is a much worse hitter than anyone he could pinch hit for. Yet, who is Ozzie's most frequently used PH? Cintron.

 

What young hitter has Ozzie Guillen successfully developed?

Edited June 23, 2007 by GreenSox

[SoxFan1]

Guillen was constantly fighting with Thomas; and Lee. Maggs I don't know about.

Guillen is the one who wanted Rowand off (he can't bunt) - fine - but then wouldn't deal with the young hitter replacement. Guillen is the one who played Mack.

 

Williams signed Erstad as a backup. It was Guillen who was so turned on by his hacking at everything and not wasting at bats with walks, that he marginalized Anderson, and called ERstad is a .400 hitter when he hits .200 (that's exactly what Guillen said). Guillen is the one who said that Erstad bats leadoff when both ERstad and Pods return.

 

You ask who else to pinch hit? How about no pinch hitter, since Cintron is a much worse hitter than anyone he could pinch hit for. Yet, who is Ozzie's most frequently used PH? Cintron.

 

What young hitter has Ozzie Guillen successfully developed?

Now you're just making things up. No one wanted ARow gone. This is Ozzies fault that he has no one to pinch hit? Scouting department.

Edited June 23, 2007 by SoxFan1

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Williams signed Erstad as a backup. It was Guillen who was so turned on by his hacking at everything and not wasting at bats with walks, that he marginalized Anderson, and called ERstad is a .400 hitter when he hits .200 (that's exactly what Guillen said). Guillen is the one who said that Erstad bats leadoff when both ERstad and Pods return.

 

It is true Guillen said Erstad would bat leadoff when they both returned.

 

It is not true Williams signed Erstad as a backup. He was brought in to compete for a starting job. If not, Erstad would not have signed here. Williams and Guillen both mentioned Erstad could occasionally fill in for Konerko and message boards interpreted it as Erstad would be a backup. The only guy who marginalized Anderson was Anderson himself.

[Gregory Pratt]

The point with Erstad/Pods, though, is that Erstad was doing a fine job, considering, in the leadoff hole after Podsednik went down so they were going to keep him there and move Podsednik down.

 

I don't think Guillen ever called Erstad a four hundred hitter.

[BearSox]

at this point, to give Ozzie an extension would be idiotic. Almost to the level of acquiring Jones. I don't think Ozzie is the main problem, but this hardly the time to be rewarding a coach of one of the worst 3 teams in baseball right now.

[SkokieSox]

And I'll repeat that the only sport where a coaches/managers contract position matters when someone chooses a team is in college recruiting. I don't think free agents are backing away from signing huge deals with the Astros because Phil Garner is a prick, etc. It's all about the money with free agents, and 99 pct of the time, they don't care who the coach is.

 

An example would be Carlos Zambrano. He'll be more likely to listen to a Sox offer due to his friendship with Ozzie....however, if a team like the Mets gives him more money than we offer, he'll go there 99 out of 100 times.

And again I'll repeat my stance, when you're direct report to position is in question, it leaves for further scepticism on the FA on signing with a certain team. Money is the first determinent, but past FA such as Dye shows that it isn't always the only part of the decision process.

[Steff]

Guillen was constantly fighting with Thomas; and Lee. Maggs I don't know about.

 

 

 

That is complete horse s***.

 

And you don't know about Lee and Maggs...? Why the hell not? Did ya miss watching the news or reading Sox reports for 4 months? Ozzie was extremely vocal about both of them - one running/sliding like a girl and the other being deceptive. Talk about a selective memory. :rolleyes

[SkokieSox]

at this point, to give Ozzie an extension would be idiotic. Almost to the level of acquiring Jones. I don't think Ozzie is the main problem, but this hardly the time to be rewarding a coach of one of the worst 3 teams in baseball right now.

 

It isn't about rewarding as much as it is building a basis for the team. Ozzie can still lead the team to be successful, but it's obvious the personnel needs adjusting. By extending him, it leaves the team secure as far as the leadership future, which can be a major positive as we decide on certain moves in the near term.

[fathom]

And again I'll repeat my stance, when you're direct report to position is in question, it leaves for further scepticism on the FA on signing with a certain team. Money is the first determinent, but past FA such as Dye shows that it isn't always the only part of the decision process.

 

Dye stayed with the Sox because at the time, they had offered him the most money. However, the story started after he had agreed to sign with the Sox, because other teams offered him more money. He stuck to his word to sign with the Sox though. Playing for Ozzie had nothing to do with it, especially since Dye went out of his way last year to say how much he wants to play for the Rangers.

[quickman]

Ozzie Guillen needs a bench coach that can help him manage the game and know the opponent. Baines seemed to be good at this and even Raines but there have been more than one time where simple moves were flat wrong.

 

Pagan's average from one side of the plate v. the other

 

Relief pitchers that were brought in for the LH/RH where the pinch hitter that was brought in was a worse Sox match-up (see Toronto Saturday game)

 

I think Cora is not a good bench coach and adds to the debacle of this season.

 

Guillen does some things very well and should stick around.

 

 

I completely agree with this. i think it would be great if he had a bench coach that managed in the Majors and knows the league. joey cora is his friend. I think Joey wants to manage one day and ozzie is trying to help him get there. just my opinion. Its not a bad thing but having a past manager might bring soem different perspective and keep ozzie managing at the same time. Many coached will get fired this year so there maybe some additional openings. I also think Razor Shines is terrible at 3b Coaching and should exit stage left at the end of the year or moved to first base. With a year like we are having its time for some new ideas and new blood both with coaches and players.

[SkokieSox]

Dye stayed with the Sox because at the time, they had offered him the most money. However, the story started after he had agreed to sign with the Sox, because other teams offered him more money. He stuck to his word to sign with the Sox though. Playing for Ozzie had nothing to do with it, especially since Dye went out of his way last year to say how much he wants to play for the Rangers.

There are plenty of players who choose comfort over maximum dollars. Again, I'll repeat it one more time - I did not say that Ozzie himself would be the deciding factor, but when the manager spot is in question, it does not bold well when negotiating with players. They want to know they are going to be in a comfortable environment where they respect their report to.

 

And maybe Dye just lived up to his word, but PK committed to the Sox because he was comfortable here. The Angels, and certainly Baltimore offered slightly more money.

[greg775]

Hawk made a good point today.

Baseball people realize Ozzie and Piniella are good managers.

Moronotti does not and thinks both should be fired.

DJ said to that, "baseball people" leaving out Moronotti.

Ozzie is a good manager.

His talent sucks right now.

Thus we lose almost every night out.

 

It is disgraceful KW can't get a decent middle reliever to go with this awesome starting staff

and good closer.

To waste this starting pitching is ridiculous.

And when he saw the lineup had plenty of guys having down years, he should have found us

a spare part somewhere in a deal like a Cliff Floyd or Ethier or somebody.

I don't want KW fired, but he has done a piss poor job this season, not Oz.

[gosox41]

.

I don't want KW fired, but he has done a piss poor job this season, not Oz.

 

 

Exactly. Is it Ozzie's fault that when Erstand and Pods go down we get Terrero and Owens. Is it Ozzie's fault none of the relievers can get anyone out? Is he misuing them or are they just not very good. I'll go with not very good.

 

 

 

Bob