Who will you most blame for MB being traded?

[caulfield12]

I've been reading a lot of this from afar, luckily, I haven't had to suffer from watching any of the losses since I've been out of the country since June 13th.

 

Personally, I feel more heat should be on KW and Jerry Reinsdorf than anyone else.

 

KW has "slotted" significant money to declining or plateauing pitchers in Contreras and Vazquez, leaving the Sox with the very real possibility of losing two favorites in Garland and Mark.

 

Buehrle has been one of the best overall representatives of this organization since I became a Sox fan in the 1980's, along with Robin Ventura, McDowell (not talking about his problems with management, just his drive and competitiveness) and Lance Johnson. Actually, of the recent players, I would probably pick Jose Valentin.

 

This whole Buehrle trade situation isn't KW's fault though. How can anyone be so blind to think that JR is not the puppet master here, pulling the strings, to quote Ed Wood, an all-time classic movie???

 

I'm not going to go into yet another dissection of the obvious faults in logic with the construction of this year's ballclub, and I'll give KW a pass for being overly optimistic based on the second half last year and Spring Training this year.

 

I don't think either Ozzie or KW should be fired, YET, especially Guillen. Both have earned the chance to give this rebuilding strategy a go for at least two more seasons, after that, all bets are off, but if things go badly, you won't have many interested managerial candidates anyway. Probably Greg Walker, the way things are going!

 

Obviously, most fans PREFER the White Sox give MB $75-90 million and 5 or 6 years. 95% of fans believe that will never happen, especially because the Sox won the World Series and there's not the same level of desperation that the Cubs currently have, despite their having passed our organization again in a short 9 month time window.

 

As far as being a fan goes, I think that "no shows" are the best way to show your disdain for the current product on the field. OTOH, it goes against everything being a fan means, of any sports team. Of course, we always point to the North Side and say that supporting a losing product "enables" more losing, because if the fans accept it, why shouldn't the organization, as long as they're still profitable? The best example I can think of in football is the Kansas City Chiefs, they've only had a handful of playoff appearances and no wins for the last twentysome years, but the fans support that franchise like crazy. Only recently have they had to start marketing season ticket packages because there used to be such a long waiting list.

 

I can't blame those who have tuned out. But I will remain cautiously optimistic that KW can get some dynamic young position players in return to go with our pitching depth and we can at least get back to .500 next year. Even that might be TOO optimistic, but ANYTHING is better than watching the current product on the field. Brooks Boyer has his work cut out for him, and I would have felt 100% better had they poached the Twins' Director of Scouting or Minor League Development, because the organizational problems here are so endemic...which is the main reason for gutting KW and OG and starting over philosophically.

 

But I really want to see what OG can do with the type of team he has wanted since he started managing. He deserves that much respect for what this organization accomplished from April 05 through July 06.

[knightni]

Kenny Williams.

 

Extending Vazquez and Contreras was foolish.

[Kalapse]

The contracts of Jose Contreras and Javier Vazquez are not going to keep the Sox from re-signing Buehrle and Garland.

 

The fact that it's going to take 5+ guaranteed years to sign either of them is why they will not be with the White Sox past the '07 and '08 seasons respectively.

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply kidding themselves.

[GoodAsGould]

I blame Jerry Reinsdorf the most, if only he had a few more billion in the bank he would spend more money

[caulfield12]

Kenny Williams.

 

Extending Vazquez and Contreras was foolish.

 

 

UNLESS he knew "crystal clear" ahead of time that JR never had any interest in going beyond three years with Mark, in which case, it's simply self-preservation to hold onto your pitching assets.

 

However, the logical question is why not put your focus on keeping Garland over either of the other two?

 

Because he would have to "overpay" for Garland, who is not a strikeout pitcher and never will be, nor will he be a true frontline "ace" starter?

 

Because he thought Vazquez was more likely to produce in the future, a dubious assumption? I guess you can buy the argument that Garland's 36 wins over 2 seasons will never be eclipsed, but trying to find another Loiaza or Contreras in Vazquez hasn't worked so well.

 

As stated, almost everyone would prefer they trade Contreras and Vazquez and keep Buehrle paired with Garland and Danks...maybe it's not fair to prefer two players we identify more with in Mark and Garland, but that's the reality of the situation for most Sox fans I think.

 

Unless Garland is also going to be getting or asking $14-15 million per year and five years, not sure he's worth that much.

 

 

 

 

 

I blame Jerry Reinsdorf the most, if only he had a few more billion in the bank he would spend more money

 

Spending and spending wisely are TWO different things. Look at the Cubs.

 

The Cardinals essentially shortcircuited the process and did what we should have done right away, even though their fans weren't happy about it.

 

Why spend millions on Cintron and Mackowiak when you could put that into scouting and development? The payroll on this team is allocated foolishly. Too much of it has been invested in expensive, veteran pitching (along with the bench, including Hall) and not enough on the bullpen and outfield in particular.

 

Thank god we dumped Garcia one year early or things would even be more bleak.

[iamshack]

I've been reading a lot of this from afar, luckily, I haven't had to suffer from watching any of the losses since I've been out of the country since June 13th.

 

I wish I had been out of the country....

 

Honestly, there is no one to blame for Mark being traded other than ourselves and the Detroit Tigers. The ridiculous starting pitching received from both the 05' White Sox and the 06' Tigers has done nothing but underscore how far a very good rotation can take a team. It's touched off a ridiculous market effect whereby anyone who can come close to throwing 180 league-average innings is being paid eight figures annually. The market will eventually correct itself- several teams are already eating huge contracts and getting little or nothing on their investments- but it won't happen in time to save Mark.

 

Additionally, the White Sox are now sufferring from the monster they helped create in that teams hoping to avoid paying market rate (which is ridiculous) for pitching are now holding on to pre-arbitration eligible players like never before, further weakening the trade value of veterans close to hitting FA.

 

Unfortunately, Mark has become the beneficiary of the "perfect storm" for solid and durable starting pitching, and it is coming at the cost of the White Sox themselves...

[RibbieRubarb]

From the Department of Redunancy Department comes another thread giving space to bash Kenny Williams or White Sox ownership.

[WhiteSoxfan1986]

Reinsdorf, no question about it.

[fathom]

The Cubs....their Soriano deal completely screwed up the market.

[max power]

Why would I blame someone in the organization? I want him traded to replenish our minor league system's talent. He will be way over paid. Blame the giants, I guess?

[The Beast]

I think we're going to get screwed in a deal by any team for Buehrle. If you trade him, will that solve anything? Hardly. It will give us 3 prospects max that could help us out eventually. With a new scouting department going to be in place, let them find talent and build the minor leagues from the ground up.

 

I don't want to be sitting here later on being like, "We shouldn't have traded Buehrle. That was such a s***ty deal." (Like the Thome trade.)

 

I will honestly blame JR, because he's holding Kenny's balls in check by not offering 3+ years on a contract for a pitcher. I think, on the contrary, that Mark Buehrle is safe to stay, and that hopefully, we will only deal Jermaine Dye, who I find to be the slowest of all of our outfielders in fielding.

 

I'll blame KW for putting together a craptacular bullpen and investing too much money in starting pitching. I pray to god I do not see Jose Contreras in town after the deadline, he is absolutely brutal and "unfun" to watch.

[caulfield12]

From the Department of Redunancy Department comes another thread giving space to bash Kenny Williams or White Sox ownership.

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

What else will we have to write about for the remainder of the season, pray tell, especially if no trades are made and the composition and age of this team doesn't dramatically change?

 

I'm not bashing Guillen, you see that nearly everyday in the local and national press. Nothing about Greg Walker, Aaron Rowand or Scott BorASS.

 

The current ownership group brought us a WS championship finally, kudos. Should they be willing to spend $125 million? What is a reasonable expectation of Sox fans who have rewarded the team in 05/06/07 with their hard-earned money? I don't know, but you can't expect the majority of reasonable fans to pay exorbidant prices for parking, concessions and tickets, even more for "premiere" teams. They're going to have to go back to deep ticket discounting...the period of Sox tickets being scalped has come and gone, and no new paradigm has been established. As always, win or perish.

 

I do have a problem with KW/JR if they're not willing to pay MB $75 million for 5 years...because he is worth 50% more than Contreras or Vazquez with what he brings to the organization. Heck, you could argue he and Konerko are the most important and have no arguments.

 

I think everyone has a problem paying Vazquez (Contreras I'm fine with due to the 05 and first half 06 seasons he put up), Uribe, Pods, Cintron, Mackowiak, etc., around $25 million.

 

I think we're going to get screwed in a deal by any team for Buehrle. If you trade him, will that solve anything? Hardly. It will give us 3 prospects max that could help us out eventually. With a new scouting department going to be in place, let them find talent and build the minor leagues from the ground up.

 

I don't want to be sitting here later on being like, "We shouldn't have traded Buehrle. That was such a s***ty deal." (Like the Thome trade.)

 

I will honestly blame JR, because he's holding Kenny's balls in check by not offering 3+ years on a contract for a pitcher. I think, on the contrary, that Mark Buehrle is safe to stay, and that hopefully, we will only deal Jermaine Dye, who I find to be the slowest of all of our outfielders in fielding.

 

I'll blame KW for putting together a craptacular bullpen and investing too much money in starting pitching. I pray to god I do not see Jose Contreras in town after the deadline, he is absolutely brutal and "unfun" to watch.

 

 

Look at the Randy Johnson to the Astros, AJ to the Giants or Colon to the Expos for three trades that exemplify what we're looking for.

 

You just have to rely on your scouting and cross-checking and pray to god you get the right 2-3 players (a pitcher and two position prospects hopefully, especially middle infielders and outfielders).

[Drew]

George Steinbrenner. Overpaying set the bar ridiculously high for everyone.

[RibbieRubarb]

Dear Sir,

 

What else will we have to write about for the remainder of the season, pray tell, especially if no trades are made and the composition and age of this team doesn't dramatically change?

 

I'm not bashing Guillen, you see that nearly everyday in the local and national press. Nothing about Greg Walker, Aaron Rowand or Scott BorASS.

 

The current ownership group brought us a WS championship finally, kudos. Should they be willing to spend $125 million? What is a reasonable expectation of Sox fans who have rewarded the team in 05/06/07 with their hard-earned money? I don't know, but you can't expect the majority of reasonable fans to pay exorbidant prices for parking, concessions and tickets, even more for "premiere" teams. They're going to have to go back to deep ticket discounting...the period of Sox tickets being scalped has come and gone, and no new paradigm has been established. As always, win or perish.

 

I do have a problem with KW/JR if they're not willing to pay MB $75 million for 5 years...because he is worth 50% more than Contreras or Vazquez with what he brings to the organization. Heck, you could argue he and Konerko are the most important and have no arguments.

 

I think everyone has a problem paying Vazquez (Contreras I'm fine with due to the 05 and first half 06 seasons he put up), Uribe, Pods, Cintron, Mackowiak, etc., around $25 million.

Look at the Randy Johnson to the Astros, AJ to the Giants or Colon to the Expos for three trades that exemplify what we're looking for.

 

You just have to rely on your scouting and cross-checking and pray to god you get the right 2-3 players (a pitcher and two position prospects hopefully, especially middle infielders and outfielders).

 

Dear Sir,

There are plenty of other threads on this site that deal with Kenny Williams, Trades and Mark. Surely, this could have been added to one of those.

 

P.S. Sorry, for calling you Shirley.

Edited June 25, 2007 by RibbieRubarb

[103 mph screwball]

Giants and Cubs. Zito and Soriano. Jamie Navarro.

[klaus kinski]

The excuses, the contempt for 5 year deals, the Scott Boras boycott, all come from the owner. Period.

[GoSox05]

god.

[SadChiSoxFanOptimist]

Jerry Reinsdorf.

 

 

 

He can spend tens of millions of dollars to correct the many design errors he made in the new stadium, but has not invested in sustaining the competitiveness of the team and meeting the contemporary contractual requirements to acquire/retain starting pitching.

 

 

 

To enable this philosophy, the Sox would need to be best in class in selecting and developing talent progressively, but we are among the worst at that.

 

 

 

This is a telling example of our lack of management and philosophical alignment in the business operations of this team.

[CanOfCorn]

Before we bash the White Sox organization for not giving out 5 year deals, is there anyone out there that has some time that can check on pitchers that have been worth their while over the length of a 5+ year contract? Also, how many of those pitchers have stayed with the team they signed the contract with? Obviously, Zito is out since he just signed. I don't have time to do any research.

[Steff]

If yer gonna blame "someone", perhaps blame ownership that the group and not Jerry, who is the Chairman voice and not the sole decision maker.

 

Jerry Reinsdorf.

 

He can spend tens of millions of dollars to correct the many design errors he made in the new stadium, but has not invested in sustaining the competitiveness of the team and meeting the contemporary contractual requirements to acquire/retain starting pitching.

 

To enable this philosophy, the Sox would need to be best in class in selecting and developing talent progressively, but we are among the worst at that.

 

This is a telling example of our lack of management and philosophical alignment in the business operations of this team.

 

 

Wow. Just wow. Double wow.

 

Missed all that news on the US Cellular money, eh? Not to mention the Sox don't own the stadium thus wouldn't pay for improvements anyway.

[striker]

I would blame:

Scott Podsenik, Darrin Erstad, Jim Thome, Paul Kornerko, Jermaine Dye, Joe Crede, Juan Uribe, AJ Pierzynski and Tadahito Iguchi... because they suck or crippled.

 

I would also blame:

Matt Thorton and Mike MacDougal, because if just one of these two guys didn't suck we would have a better team. But they both suck.

 

I would not blame:

KW or JR. This was a good team. We all know it. They just sucked.

[Wanne]

I'm having a hard time understanding how you blame anybody but KW. The Sox have sucked...so the first thing you do is trade one of your cornerstones who hasn't been anywhere close to being the problem. Anymore...nothing surprises me this year.

[striker]

Who was the cornerstone we traded? Garcia? McCarthy? Those are the only two players I remember being traded.

[Wanne]

Who was the cornerstone we traded? Garcia? McCarthy? Those are the only two players I remember being traded.

 

That was a hypothetical IF/WHEN KW trades Burhrle. Wasn't talking about Garcia (which I was ok with)...and McCarthy (who I was THRILLED) they traded.

[Soxbadger]

but has not invested in sustaining the competitiveness of the team and meeting the contemporary contractual requirements to acquire/retain starting pitching.

 

Huh?

 

I swear that the White Sox have constantly been increasing their payroll.

 

Wouldnt that be "invested in sustaining the competitiveness of the team."

 

Which teams in the AL Central have a higher payroll than the Sox?

 

Or should we just say unless the Sox spend like the Yankees or Red Sox they just arent trying?

 

All of these threads are a joke.