Phil Rogers Details Kenny's Failures

[WCSox]

KW is responsible for our farm system going to crap. I don't have a problem with the rest of what he's done.

Edited June 25, 2007 by WCSox

[Dick Allen]

The addressed them. They just didn't get the results they were hoping for. CF Erstad replaced Brian Anderson. LF - Pods was supposed to be healthy and be a quality leadoff man. The entire bullpen was revamped. There were changes. Issues were addressed. Horrible results. You can argue the result part, but you can't really say that they didn't address it and you can't say KW sat on his hands all winter. He made a lot of moves. I guess you can say they didn't go after a replacement for Pods, but that's it.

If they expected Erstad to remain healthy an entire season, the entire braintrust needs to be removed. Darin Erstad for $750k is the move that will cure all the ills? Pods gets hurt every season. Even the idiots like me knew he wouldn't last. If issues were addressed, they weren't addressed competently which is KW's job. Sorry, he failed again. That's 1 good year out of 7 for him. I don't consider 2006 a good year just because of 90 wins. They were only 8 games over .500 against the AL, and tanked the second half. I don't celebrate 3rd place finishes.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Dick Allen

[Wanne]

It all comes down the the Hindsight game. I can't speak for anybody...but if the Sox knew Crede had back issues back in '05...it would have made some sense to unload him at his peak value. Hindsight is a great thing and all...and many would have been pissed unloading Rowand AND Crede the same year...but would have been somewhat smart. KW rolled the dice that these guys were set to make another run and fell back on the '06 hangover theory which bit him in the ass. With that thought...it's not a bad idea to "retool" after reaching the summit.

[southsideirish]

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If they expected Erstad to remain healthy an entire season, the entire braintrust needs to be removed. Darin Erstad for $750k is the move that will cure all the ills? Pods gets hurt every season. Even the idiots like me knew he wouldn't last. If issues were addressed, they weren't addressed competently which is KW's job. Sorry, he failed again. That's 1 good year out of 7 for him. I don't consider 2006 a good year just because of 90 wins. They were only 8 games over .500 against the AL, and tanked the second half. I don't celebrate 3rd place finishes.

Now you are saying 2 different things. Unrealistic expectations of players or situations were addressed. No one said Erstad cured all ills. They were asking him to play solid defense and be better offensively than Anderson. Pods has been hurt every season with the White Sox but before that he was very healthy. Competently? Describe good. Good = playoffs? If good = playoffs then most GMs would be fired under the same standards you put on KW. 4 teams make the playoffs every year. The Yanks are usually always one of them - that leaves 3 others. That is a pretty high standard. The only AL Central Division team to win the World Series since 1991.

 

 

QUOTE(Wanne @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It all comes down the the Hindsight game. I can't speak for anybody...but if the Sox knew Crede had back issues back in '05...it would have made some sense to unload him at his peak value. Hindsight is a great thing and all...and many would have been pissed unloading Rowand AND Crede the same year...but would have been somewhat smart. KW rolled the dice that these guys were set to make another run and fell back on the '06 hangover theory which bit him in the ass. With that thought...it's not a bad idea to "retool" after reaching the summit.

I agree, but before the season you didn't know what you had in Fields. Crede also had this back issue last season and had his best season ever. If you actually thought you were going to contend this year then sticking with Crede was the right thing to do.

[WCSox]

Crede also had this back issue last season and had his best season ever. If you actually thought you were going to contend this year then sticking with Crede was the right thing to do.

 

Not only that, but it KW may have no had much of a choice. Crede began having these back problems in July of '05, IIRC. And the talk of him possibly needing surgery was common knowledge last Fall. Who would want to trade anything of value for a Scott Boras client in need of back surgery? My guess is not too many GMs.

[elrockinMT]

The addressed them. They just didn't get the results they were hoping for. CF Erstad replaced Brian Anderson. LF - Pods was supposed to be healthy and be a quality leadoff man. The entire bullpen was revamped. There were changes. Issues were addressed. Horrible results. You can argue the result part, but you can't really say that they didn't address it and you can't say KW sat on his hands all winter. He made a lot of moves. I guess you can say they didn't go after a replacement for Pods, but that's it.

 

 

Do you think part of the problem may have been making moves on the cheap? I am hung up on that one because there was such a push to get Erstad before and Pods was the replacement for a star hitter (C Lee). Garcia and his salary went and no major player was signed to replace him. He was going with youth again and none have really panned out. Now I mean this year by that.. who knows what happens next year as far as the youth development goes. We might have some super pitchers step up from those trades.

[nitetrain8601]

Creating a disconnect with the amateur and pro scouts who had worked well with his predecessor, Ron Schueler, in building the strong farm system that Williams once oversaw. Follow Williams around the winter meetings and he is never far from assistant GM Rick Hahn and his stats guy, Dan Fabian; somehow I'd feel better if he was spending time with the guys who have gristle, like Dave Yoakum and Doug Laumann. The sacking of Duane Shaffer was a long time coming as he felt Williams tuned him out, seeking players he could take credit for getting.

 

Even worse, it's Kenny's fault for fkn up the drafts.

[Friend of Nordhagen]

Now you are saying 2 different things. Unrealistic expectations of players or situations were addressed. No one said Erstad cured all ills. They were asking him to play solid defense and be better offensively than Anderson. Pods has been hurt every season with the White Sox but before that he was very healthy. Competently? Describe good. Good = playoffs? If good = playoffs then most GMs would be fired under the same standards you put on KW. 4 teams make the playoffs every year. The Yanks are usually always one of them - that leaves 3 others. That is a pretty high standard. The only AL Central Division team to win the World Series since 1991.

I agree, but before the season you didn't know what you had in Fields. Crede also had this back issue last season and had his best season ever. If you actually thought you were going to contend this year then sticking with Crede was the right thing to do.

 

To me, it all comes back to Williams being a big baby about the market for pitching. He got upset (and contemptuous of other GM's) for the money being paid last winter, so he turned around and traded Garcia and McCarthy for young, "locked up" pitching. Fine. But the minute he relinquished those assets, Garcia and McCarthy, for pitching -- and not POSITION PLAYERS -- he was effectively putting his head in the sand about LF, SS and CF. So we get Pods back, Uribe back and Erstad. Now, come on -- a lineup with Crede, Thome, Pods and Erstad is a lineup that is going to be injury-prone. And you're going to need quite a bit of luck to contend with that spectre of injuries hanging around.

 

 

By the way, I had absolutely no problem holding onto Crede or non-tendering Ordonez. I thought those were understandable moves, and I believe Rogers is wrong on those two counts.

[WCSox]

Creating a disconnect with the amateur and pro scouts who had worked well with his predecessor, Ron Schueler, in building the strong farm system that Williams once oversaw.

 

Ron Schueler built a "strong" farm system? Not sure I agree with that, especially with regard to pitching.

Edited June 25, 2007 by WCSox

[nitetrain8601]

Ron Schueler built a "strong" farm system? Not sure I agree with that, especially with regard to pitching.

 

Maggs and Lee turned out ok.

[caulfield12]

If I remember correctly, the White Sox were paying Magglio $14.5 million in one of those classic escalator contracts, which would have meant the most they could cut him would be 20%, correct?

 

Magglio...Swiss doctors...hernia operations?

 

Getting stuck with Magglio, even at $11.6 million for 2005, seemed as zany as keeping Thomas as the full-time DH heading into 2006, although both those players returned to form, especially Maggs this year. GIving Magglio another long-term deal or paying Thomas $10 million, both those moves would have seemed to be VERY counterintuitive.

 

Of course, the Tigers overbid on Magglio, but we don't know if that would have happened if they were also to give up Type A compensation as well. Same thing with Riske and the Royals and why he wasn't offered, even though his eventual deal with KC was for more than he would have gotten had we been able to cut him 20% from last year's salary.

 

Two things about Dye. He was the best bargain in baseball for two seasons, it's not even close. Second, signing him for $45 million over 3 years coming into 07 would have been equally irresponsible.

 

In unrelated news and notes...

 

"Jim Thome and the White Sox visit the Royals this weekend"...thought that was funny, that's the best the Royals' marketing department could come up with for the upcoming series as the subject line of an e-mail from royals.com

Edited June 25, 2007 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Now you are saying 2 different things. Unrealistic expectations of players or situations were addressed. No one said Erstad cured all ills. They were asking him to play solid defense and be better offensively than Anderson. Pods has been hurt every season with the White Sox but before that he was very healthy. Competently? Describe good. Good = playoffs? If good = playoffs then most GMs would be fired under the same standards you put on KW. 4 teams make the playoffs every year. The Yanks are usually always one of them - that leaves 3 others. That is a pretty high standard. The only AL Central Division team to win the World Series since 1991.

I agree, but before the season you didn't know what you had in Fields. Crede also had this back issue last season and had his best season ever. If you actually thought you were going to contend this year then sticking with Crede was the right thing to do.

His OBP is .311, not too different from Anderson's last season. In fact, as great as some think he's been, the White Sox part-time leadoff hitter has an OBP only .006 higher than Sammy Sosa, and only .009 higher than Josh Paul. I like the way he plays, but its rather obvious he was going to get hurt, and leading off? Please. Pods too. Pods was horrible last season and the second half of 2005. Thome has had physical problems 3 or 4 straight seasons. Crede's back issues aren't new. When these guys went down, except for Crede, it appears KW was totally unprepared. Brian Anderson DHing? Andy Gonzalez leading off or batting second? The farm system sucks, and KW needs to be a man and take most of the blame. If Shaffer or whoever weren't doing their jobs, something should have been done about it a long time ago. KW has been praising the crap prospects all this time. In fact, he got his job partially based on the Sox erroneously being given the tag of the best farm system when he was in charge. You think making the playoffs 1 time in 7 years in a 5 team division when for good part of the 7 years KC and Det were beyond horrible and Cleveland had to rebuild totally, and when for more than half the time the White Sox had the highest payroll in the division is acceptable? What's so funny about Shaffer losing his job is he would not have been let go had guys like Konerko, Dye, Pods, and any of the bullpen did their jobs. KW was looking for scapegoats.

[caulfield12]

His OBP is .311, not too different from Anderson's last season. In fact, as great as some think he's been, the White Sox part-time leadoff hitter has an OBP only .006 higher than Sammy Sosa, and only .009 higher than Josh Paul. I like the way he plays, but its rather obvious he was going to get hurt, and leading off? Please. Pods too. Pods was horrible last season and the second half of 2005. Thome has had physical problems 3 or 4 straight seasons. Crede's back issues aren't new. When these guys went down, except for Crede, it appears KW was totally unprepared. Brian Anderson DHing? Andy Gonzalez leading off or batting second? The farm system sucks, and KW needs to be a man and take most of the blame. If Shaffer or whoever weren't doing their jobs, something should have been done about it a long time ago. KW has been praising the crap prospects all this time. In fact, he got his job partially based on the Sox erroneously being given the tag of the best farm system when he was in charge. You think making the playoffs 1 time in 7 years in a 5 team division when for good part of the 7 years KC and Det were beyond horrible and Cleveland had to rebuild totally, and when for more than half the time the White Sox had the highest payroll in the division is acceptable? What's so funny about Shaffer losing his job is he would not have been let go had guys like Konerko, Dye, Pods, and any of the bullpen did their jobs. KW was looking for scapegoats.

 

 

Well, Thome was very healthy until 2005, right? Of course, his advancing age should have been another consideration, but our getting so much back in cash was enough to mitigate the risk. Overall, Thome has been just as good, if not better, than most expected, coming out of 2005's injury-plagued season.

 

Signing Gary Matthews Jr. was the only move, in retrospect, that would have worked...and that would have been met with universal scorn and derision, correct?

 

Erstad was nothing but a stopgap move that didn't cost nearly the salary we pay Pods, Mackowiak and Cintron to be borderline horrible. And Darin had around a .338 OBP as leadoff hitter, something like that. He certainly wasn't the reason the offense tanked in 06 and 07, not at all. In all likelihood, we would have been even worse off with Darin. The best stretch this season for the Sox was when Erstad was healthy and raking the ball and getting numerous clutch RBI's.

 

Minnesota is an anomaly. The Mariners, Angels and Rangers outspend Beane nearly every season too. The one year we won the WS, we didn't have an appreciably higher payroll, it was $75 million.

 

If you don't point the finger at KW, that leaves JR (not going there again today), Walker or Guillen, Mariotti will continue his personal war against Guillen and now Phil Rogers is after KW with a full-frontal assault.

[greg775]

Do you think part of the problem may have been making moves on the cheap?

 

Yes, Great Point.

[GreenSox]

Is it fair to say that Chris Young is better that BA, Sweeney and Owens at this point? Also, if it took Chris Young to get the trade done, then the comparison should be Vasquez + one of the 3 guys above vs. El Duque and Chris Young in the rotation and line-up respectively and I think I would take the Vasquez and one of the guys above. The unfortunate part is that we don't get one of the 3 above consistently, we get Terrero, Gonzalez, Erstad and Mackowiak.

I agree. The players with real talent sit in AAA, while the hackers get the PT. It's ridiculous. Anderson and Sweeney should be playing every day on the ml team. My only reservation is whether Guillen develop them or ruin them. Ozzie jerked Anderson around last year and didn't give him a chance this year.

Chris Young, the recipient of immense hype particularly after he left the Sox, hasn't set the world on fire in Arizona. He's been injured.

I think Rogers has slightly changed his tact on the Garcia and McCarthy trades...he first criticized them saying the Sox got ripped and certainly they wouldn't help a ready-to-win team; then he said he was wrong; now he's saying well, they didn't address real needs...so we used Mccarthy and Gacia to bring in pitchers instead of CF, SS etc. It's BS.

Edited June 26, 2007 by GreenSox

[gosox41]

Rogers has flip-flopped on the Garcia and McCarthy trades several times now. If you searched the Tribune archives, about 6 weeks ago he wrote a column saying 'I admit I was wrong to criticize these moves.' Screw him.

 

 

What pissed me off more then that was the whole comment about signing Ordonez and LEe. The Sox won by getting rid of those guys and using the salary to fill many holes.

 

Would anyone here seriously trade 2005 to have Lee and Ordonez back? I wouldn't and I don't think we'd win with those 2. Because as Phil has often mentioned, how can you win when you have slow, right handed power hitters throughout the lineup.

 

 

 

Bob

[PHAT ALBERT]

Phil is an idiot. He confirms that thought with every flip-flop - remember his article a year ago in which he said KW had this team set up for years by saying how good Charlotte was - and every shortsighted theory on team building that he creates (and which are widely mocked on pages like this one.)

 

Perhaps he will get flushed once the Trib is sold and we finally get a big league columnist in this town instead of this hack. He Gone!

[caulfield12]

I agree. The players with real talent sit in AAA, while the hackers get the PT. It's ridiculous. Anderson and Sweeney should be playing every day on the ml team. My only reservation is whether Guillen develop them or ruin them. Ozzie jerked Anderson around last year and didn't give him a chance this year.

Chris Young, the recipient of immense hype particularly after he left the Sox, hasn't set the world on fire in Arizona. He's been injured.

I think Rogers has slightly changed his tact on the Garcia and McCarthy trades...he first criticized them saying the Sox got ripped and certainly they wouldn't help a ready-to-win team; then he said he was wrong; now he's saying well, they didn't address real needs...so we used Mccarthy and Gacia to bring in pitchers instead of CF, SS etc. It's BS.

 

I don't know how everyone can just magically assume Brian Anderson was ready to be a regular player with that swing of his. Heck, you can make the same argument about Fields, but he's at least making some productive outs and picking up RBI's at a nice pace...still you can't strike out 1/2.5 PA. I guess if he put another hit or two together tonight (two balls barely foul, one a would be homer), I'd feel better.

 

The other problem is Fields isn't hitting to the opposite side either.

 

I don't mind Gonzalez playing, I would love to see some new blood replace Cintron and maybe Ozuna if he's not healthy again. The more questions we answer with Owens, Sweeney, Anderson, Fields, the better off we'll be in terms of finding a direction in the offseason. Richar should get a long look as well as he assumes the Willie Harris "heir apparent" label, and Getz could get a few AB's as well down the stretch, especially if Iguchi were to be traded.

[RX Bandits]

KW sitting on his hands ALL winter not filling holes caught up with Mr.Smugass.

i am wondering who you would have liked KW to get reasonablly. face it, it was a weak free agent class where over paying was all the rage. im glad he "sat on his hands" and ditngive guys like dave robers multi-year deals.

 

 

It all comes down the the Hindsight game. I can't speak for anybody...but if the Sox knew Crede had back issues back in '05...it would have made some sense to unload him at his peak value.

 

seeing as how people reacted on this board when garcia was traded, i dont even want to think about the reactions of a crede trade after 05.

[Kalapse]

seeing as how people reacted on this board when garcia was traded, i dont even want to think about the reactions of a crede trade after 05.

Can I take credit for being 100% behind the Garcia trade from the day it was made? I absolutely LOVED that deal. Yeah, that's right, I want some god damn dap.

[GreenSox]

The addressed them. They just didn't get the results they were hoping for. CF Erstad replaced Brian Anderson. LF - Pods was supposed to be healthy and be a quality leadoff man.

ERstad was hardly a serious effort to replace Anderson (and it wasn't anderson anyway - an anderson/mack platoon)....he's a declining player that struggles getting on base and has no power and no arm. Williams should have brought in a legitimate CF.

 

I know Erstad hits ozzie-style: he goes up there hacking at any pitch his bat can reach and can make an out to whatever side of the infield Ozzie instructs him. Williams doesn't need to cater to Ozzie's weak-points.

 

And Williams added no one solid in the bullpen either - and unfortunately they have pitched about as bad as they possibly could.

 

Williams had some rough luck in the offseason.

 

The real concern is Ozzie's unwillingness to develop young talent. Hopefully he's capable of doing it (not sure he is) and hopefully Williams will force him to do it, because Ozzie has little patience with young hitters. But pretty soon, developing young hitters will be the prime goal of the season.

[CWSGuy406]

Can I take credit for being 100% behind the Garcia trade from the day it was made? I absolutely LOVED that deal. Yeah, that's right, I want some god damn dap.

 

I was lukewarm on it -- the Soxtalk trade thread was crazy, though. Speaking of which, where are the Soxtalk archives? I'd like to go back and look at some threads from this winter, seeing as there were so many people who knew Crede was going to fail immensely and Aardsma was going to have an 18.00 ERA.

 

Anyways, here was my first post at SSS about the trade.

 

Not sure where I stand on this trade yet, but we're getting two pretty good arms. Whether or not they turn into anything...

 

Anyways, I'd guess that most people were pissed about the trade because it didn't come close to matching the Pelfrey + Milledge for Garcia proposals. I mean, gosh dammit Kenny, how the hell couldn't Kenny've pulled off 12 years of those two for one year of Freddy Garcia's shoulder? This is the same reason why -- I'm guessing -- when the Sox eventually trade Contreras, Buehrle and/or Dye, most people are going to be pissed that a Martinez/Pelfrey/Humber or Buccholz/Ellsbury/Lowrie package isn't going to be coming our way.

Edited June 27, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[caulfield12]

ERstad was hardly a serious effort to replace Anderson (and it wasn't anderson anyway - an anderson/mack platoon)....he's a declining player that struggles getting on base and has no power and no arm. Williams should have brought in a legitimate CF.

 

I know Erstad hits ozzie-style: he goes up there hacking at any pitch his bat can reach and can make an out to whatever side of the infield Ozzie instructs him. Williams doesn't need to cater to Ozzie's weak-points.

 

And Williams added no one solid in the bullpen either - and unfortunately they have pitched about as bad as they possibly could.

 

Williams had some rough luck in the offseason.

 

The real concern is Ozzie's unwillingness to develop young talent. Hopefully he's capable of doing it (not sure he is) and hopefully Williams will force him to do it, because Ozzie has little patience with young hitters. But pretty soon, developing young hitters will be the prime goal of the season.

 

He has been rewarded for his patience with Andy Gonzalez with two very productive days. Fields is playing almost everyday, except against the toughest righties. Should he have played Fields instead of Cintron versus Shields? Would that necessarily help Josh to strike out 2-3 more times?

 

What else could Ozzie do with Owens or Molina? Not much.

 

You can argue about Sweeney, but he was clearly overmatched the last week or so and they did the right thing with him IMO.

 

This always goes back to Brian Anderson, but that's such a polarizing argument, there's no point in rehashing it, is there?

[Chisoxfn]

I think with Anderson, you can't say he didn't play. Yes, I would have liked to see him play more because I thought at the time his defense was more valuable than Mackowiak's offense (talking about last season) but in on way did I think Ozzie ruined Brian's development (I do think he hurt the Sox defense and made the Sox a worse team with Mack in center).

 

When it comes down to it, Ozzie protects all his players. And for Sweeney, I thought he did a pretty darn good job and Sweeney will be up (Ryan played quite a bit and than I'm sure Ozzie/Walker had a talk with him on stuff to work on and told him he'll be back up again).

 

You could argue more playing time would have helped Anderson a bit, but bottom line, he still got to play quite a bit his rookie season.