Buehrle Fest

[mmmmmbeeer]

JR is just as responsible for the they way this has been handled as KW. KW has pretty good job security no matter how bad the Sox play this season, or probably the next several.

 

Obviously JR was involved at some point being a 4 year deal was on the table. If JR wanted MB on this team, he'd be on this team (like Kong). If JR didn't want MB on this team, MB wouldn't have been offered a 4 year deal. Logic leads me to believe that this was completely in Kenny's hands to do what he felt was best for the franchise with JR supporting whatever decision was made.

[quickman]

I'm one of the biggest Frank fans ever, and I've got to say those two situations are incomparable.

 

Regardless what Frank has done/will do since leaving the Sox, he's at the end of his career and his skills aren't what they used to be. His ankle was too risky to depend on, despite his two infield singles last night.

 

On the other hand, Buehrle's no where near the end of his career, and his numbers back that claim up.

 

Hence, there's definitely plenty of reason to blink at the Buehrle situation, if we don't re-sign him or get an impressive haul in return for trading him.

 

Frank left the sox and had a great year last year and is playing pretty well this year. Its true they are at different points, but my point is the euphoria centered around the player itself. Buerhle cannot be part of a rebuild, if you keep buerhle then you keep garland, that will be two pitchers who will be a third of your payroll. The math doesn't work. You need to get more guys like Danks in here, and build from there. Just the math alone doesn't work

[Dick Allen]

From the White Sox perspective, I think there are a few reasons they don't want to make this committment although it seems very reasonable. I think they are at least a little spooked by Buerhle's second half last year. He appears over it, but maybe they feel if he lose just a little bit of command or just a couple miles of his fastball, he turns into one of the worst pitchers in the league. I think Alex Fernandez may also be a factor. I remember JR talking about how if allowed, they would have broken the team's policy and offered him a 4 year contract because of his age and they thought he had near perfect mechanics. He wound up blowing out his shoulder I believe a little while later. I also think KW may have his eye on someone huge this winter or next, and wants the money to be available. Finally, they probably have a better idea than us, and they probably have concluded they are going to lose a decent portion of their season ticket base this year, with no guarantee it gets any better the following years. Buerhle's been great. Except for the second half of 2006 he's probably been the most consistent pitcher the Sox have ever had. But he has a couple things against him. KW didn't acquire him, and he doesn't sell tickets.

Edited July 8, 2007 by Dick Allen

[RME JICO]

MB is very overrated on this site, always has been. He's referred to as "elite" or as an "ace" way too often. It's like people think that we're dealing with Peavy or Santana here. This franchise will survive without MB. You think $14M in today's market is a steal, but would you freak out if they gave Garland $14M? They're the same pitcher. If our payroll drops dramatically next season, which it will, we're not going to compete. Why, if we're not going to compete, would you want $14M of the payroll to go towards one player who pitches once every 5 days. He's never even won 20 games in his career, it's not like every 5th day you're practically guaranteed a victory. He's a good pitcher, no doubt, but far from irreplaceable. No player should be making $14M/yr on a team in its first year of a rebuilding process.

Ok, where would you rate Buehrle as a pitcher since his first full year (2001)? What is your definition of elite?

 

He might not meet the criteria for an "Ace" because he doesn't strike out a lot of batters. However, since 2001, he is 6th in wins, 15th in ERA, 5th in Complete Games, 2nd in Innings Pitched, and 6th in Shutouts with 1 no-hitter. When people rate pitchers over an era, Buerhle has arguably been one of the best pitchers in baseball since 2001.

 

Your argument about 20 wins if funny. Is 20 some magical barrier? Him not being a 20 game winner makes the fact that he is 6th in wins since 2001 even stronger. That means he is very consistent. Loaiza won 20+ games for the Sox, I guess he is better than Buehrle.

 

If you are not going to spend $14 million on quality starting pitching because you are rebuilding, then where are you spending it? The fastest way back to the top, even when rebuilding is by locking up your quality starters, and Buehrle would be one.

 

You also say he is far from irreplaceable. So you are saying there are players available for $14 million that can take over his production? Please name those players that are available, because I could not find one that was even close in price or production.

[RME JICO]

Frank left the sox and had a great year last year and is playing pretty well this year. Its true they are at different points, but my point is the euphoria centered around the player itself. Buerhle cannot be part of a rebuild, if you keep buerhle then you keep garland, that will be two pitchers who will be a third of your payroll. The math doesn't work. You need to get more guys like Danks in here, and build from there. Just the math alone doesn't work

I think Frank's departure was lessened by the acquisition of Thome. If the Sox bring in someone comparable to Mark before 2008, while also getting some talent in the trade, the whole issue behind this will go away.

 

This is not about Mark Buehrle the person, it is about replacing someone with his talent level for a comparable price tag and comparable production. If the Sox get some great talent in a trade, while also acquiring an impact player via Free Agency with the money saved, I am all for it. However, this situation does not look like that will happen. They will trade Mark for the best available package which will be significantly less than what it could have been, and they will only sign mid-level guys in the offseason who are coming off an injury or had a down year in hopes of a rebound.

 

 

KW didn't acquire him, and he doesn't sell tickets.

Buehrle doesn't sell tickets? I beg to differ. He is one of the faces of the organization, and people come out just to see him pitch.

[chisox72]

Ok, where would you rate Buehrle as a pitcher since his first full year (2001)? What is your definition of elite?

 

He might not meet the criteria for an "Ace" because he doesn't strike out a lot of batters. However, since 2001, he is 6th in wins, 15th in ERA, 5th in Complete Games, 2nd in Innings Pitched, and 6th in Shutouts with 1 no-hitter. When people rate pitchers over an era, Buerhle has arguably been one of the best pitchers in baseball since 2001.

 

Your argument about 20 wins if funny. Is 20 some magical barrier? Him not being a 20 game winner makes the fact that he is 6th in wins since 2001 even stronger. That means he is very consistent. Loaiza won 20+ games for the Sox, I guess he is better than Buehrle.

 

If you are not going to spend $14 million on quality starting pitching because you are rebuilding, then where are you spending it? The fastest way back to the top, even when rebuilding is by locking up your quality starters, and Buehrle would be one.

 

You also say he is far from irreplaceable. So you are saying there are players available for $14 million that can take over his production? Please name those players that are available, because I could not find one that was even close in price or production.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. Great post!

 

I don't understand how you can't "rebuild" around a 28 year old work horse that has never spent any time on the DL, pitches 200+ innings/30+ starts a year, and other than the weird year last year will give you quality work every time. I don't think that is overvaluing anything, its knowing what you have to work with and wanting to keep it there.

 

The wins thing with a pitcher is such a crock of s*** anyhow. Look at how many more wins he would have this year if this offense wasn't a gigantic piece of crap? The 2 hitter he threw against Toronto and lost 2-0 is one of them off my head. But yeah, he isn't s*** because he hasn't/can't win 20 games. Give me a f***ing break.

 

$14 million a year for a player of his caliber is a bargain when there are s***tier guys out there getting $8-$10+ as third, fourth, and fifth starters.

 

He might not be an "ace" as some feel obligated to label him. But in my mind, in a big game, if I am trotting any of these five out, it is him FIRST and foremost above any of the rest of them. While JG might be a good pitcher, he severely lacks something MB has demonstrated time and time again- Balls.

 

What is also disheartening is the White Sox handling of this entire situation. It was all a charade, so that once again JR, KW, and co. can stand in the background, throw their hands up, and say "We tried." They never had any intention of resigning him. They wanted to try and stop the fan mutiny/bleeding caused by a horrendous month and a half of baseball being played. Problem is, that ploy has now backfired and they are in for one very large PR s***storm when the dust settles from all of this. I have been a partial season ticket holder for 5 years. While that isn't that big of a deal, I doubt I will be re-upping going into 2008. With the continued attitude and antiquated policy making of our front office, we will continue to sit on the backburner when it comes to any worthwhile free agents/current players that will bring a higher price tag. It is a shame that this organization chose to go back down a road they were beginning to silently redeem themselves for going down before.

Edited July 8, 2007 by chisox72

[fathom]

At least this will save us enough money to sign Ichiro this offseason (and yes, when I say Ichiro, I mean Rowand).

[RME JICO]

chisox72,

I agree 110%.

 

Taking a step back, I think they made their minds up about Buehrle in the offseason. The guy was given the ball every opening day for several years, then all of a sudden you give the ball to someone else. Some will say that was because how he pitched in 2006, but if that was the case Garland would've gotten it once or twice based on performance.

[fathom]

chisox72,

I agree 110%.

 

Taking a step back, I think they made their minds up about Buehrle in the offseason. The guy was given the ball every opening day for several years, then all of a sudden you give the ball to someone else. Some will say that was because how he pitched in 2006, but if that was the case Garland would've gotten it once or twice based on performance.

 

And don't forget the main acquisitions in the trades were two lefty starters, as well as drafting another lefty with our first pick this year. At this point, we just have to hope KW surprises us by who he acquires in the trade.

[hitlesswonder]

The twins will be in the same spot with santanna soon. He is as good as gone, but he is a guy I break the bank for and give the no trade clause.

Not signing Buehrle because he's not Santana is silly. Santana will command $20M per season in the open market. Are the Sox going to sign him? a $160M contract with a NTC. That's beyond laughable. And don't count the Twins out yet. They may let him go, but Santan has said he'd explore a hometown discount and they'll have a new ballpark and they have always been willing to sign their own top free agents (like Kirby).

[RME JICO]

And don't forget the main acquisitions in the trades were two lefty starters, as well as drafting another lefty with our first pick this year. At this point, we just have to hope KW surprises us by who he acquires in the trade.

Good catch. That makes it even more damning. I guess the writing was on the wall for a long time.

[hitlesswonder]

At this point, we just have to hope KW surprises us by who he acquires in the trade.

 

It's going to be Pods...I mean Ellsbury. It's destiny. Maybe something like Buehrle and minor leaguers for Ellsbury. I shudder at the thought of the Red Sox scouts picking over the Sox system. They almost got McCarthy as a throw in in the scuttled Ordonez-Nomar trade. You just know they'll evaluate the Sox system better than the Sox themselves (maybe De Los Santos will be the throw-in this time).

Edited July 8, 2007 by hitlesswonder

[SkokieSox]

It's going to be Pods...I mean Ellsbury. It's destiny. Maybe something like Buehrle and minor leaguers for Ellsbury. I shudder at the thought of the Red Sox scouts picking over the Sox system. They almost got McCarthy as a throw in in the scuttled Ordonez-Nomar trade. You just know they'll evaluate the Sox system better than the Sox themselves (maybe De Los Santos will be the throw-in this time).

McCarthy isn't exactly lighting it up these days. I remember when everyone called for KW's head then, but I take Danks all day. Not to mention Masset as a nice throw in.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Not to mention Masset as a nice throw in.

 

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[SkokieSox]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Frustrated a little? Anyway, he doesn't exactly have the easiest role, but he has some decent stuff. I'm not prepared to ditch him...

[mmmmmbeeer]

Ok, where would you rate Buehrle as a pitcher since his first full year (2001)? What is your definition of elite?

 

He might not meet the criteria for an "Ace" because he doesn't strike out a lot of batters. However, since 2001, he is 6th in wins, 15th in ERA, 5th in Complete Games, 2nd in Innings Pitched, and 6th in Shutouts with 1 no-hitter. When people rate pitchers over an era, Buerhle has arguably been one of the best pitchers in baseball since 2001.

 

Your argument about 20 wins if funny. Is 20 some magical barrier? Him not being a 20 game winner makes the fact that he is 6th in wins since 2001 even stronger. That means he is very consistent. Loaiza won 20+ games for the Sox, I guess he is better than Buehrle.

 

If you are not going to spend $14 million on quality starting pitching because you are rebuilding, then where are you spending it? The fastest way back to the top, even when rebuilding is by locking up your quality starters, and Buehrle would be one.

 

You also say he is far from irreplaceable. So you are saying there are players available for $14 million that can take over his production? Please name those players that are available, because I could not find one that was even close in price or production.

 

This argument has been rehashed numerous times no this site so I really don't want to get into it. Again, Mark is a good pitcher and $14M, for a team planning on competing, is a good deal. The Sox aren't competing for at least another 3-4 years (based on the young, cheap rosters in DET and CLE). So why in the hell would we want to drop $14M a year on a pitcher that might help us lose less?

 

I think our biggest difference comes down to you believing this team can re-tool and continue to compete and my belief that this team is done and needs to completely rebuild. In my scenario Mark is nothing but a waste of money, in your scenario he's an important piece in continuity of strong pitching. KW seems to be waffling between these two scenarios as well.

[hitlesswonder]

McCarthy isn't exactly lighting it up these days. I remember when everyone called for KW's head then, but I take Danks all day. Not to mention Masset as a nice throw in.

I didn't say anything about McCarthy being better than Danks...read what I wrote. I was talking about the fact that Gammons reported McCarthy was one of 2 minor league players supposed to go from Chicago to Boston in addition to Ordonez. I don't know if it's true, but if it is Boston picked out probably the most valuable player in the Sox system then. It's an unsettling idea.

 

As for McCarthy, he pitched very well against Baltimore in his last start. It's too early to know which guy will be the better pitcher, but it certainly looks like a decent trade for the Sox if only because Danks has less service time. Masset:7.34 ERA 2.00 WHIP .329 BAA. 20/25 K/BB ratio. What do you see that I don't?

[Cerbaho-WG]

Frustrated a little? Anyway, he doesn't exactly have the easiest role, but he has some decent stuff. I'm not prepared to ditch him...

 

He belongs in Charlotte to duke it out with the other AAAA pitchers we have assembled. Just imagine this rotation for the Knights:

 

Broadway

Sisco

Masset

Haeger

Floyd

 

Just good enough to be good in AAA.

[Dick Allen]

Frustrated a little? Anyway, he doesn't exactly have the easiest role, but he has some decent stuff. I'm not prepared to ditch him...

His ERA is over 7.00. His role is to get people out. If that is too tough, he needs to find another occupation. What he does need is some time in AAA. Going in and giving up runs, then getting booed off the field isn't going to help him progress. Who even knows if he can progress anyway.

[mmmmmbeeer]

What is also disheartening is the White Sox handling of this entire situation. It was all a charade, so that once again JR, KW, and co. can stand in the background, throw their hands up, and say "We tried." They never had any intention of resigning him.

 

 

Obviously the thought of resigning him did occur or they wouldn't have ever opened negotiations....I mean, unless you believe their intentions all along were to completely destroy his trade value and piss off a bunch of fans just so they could say "we tried". As I posted earlier, if you follow the sequence of events, there were obvious changes in direction on the part of KW over the course of the past year, but moreso over the past 2 weeks.

[winninguglyin83]

if this owner let Jordan, Phil Jackson, Robin Ventura, Black Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez and so many others walk, he ain't going to get a warm heart for Buehrle.

 

Sad.

 

very sad.

 

but the wrecking ball is about to disassemble this team.

[LVSoxFan]

I've had it with KW and his bulls***, I really have. I think we've all been had with this PR dance. I also think that the way we treat players sends a message to those considering ever playing here.

 

and oh boy I can't wait to see what we get in return.

[SkokieSox]

I didn't say anything about McCarthy being better than Danks...read what I wrote. I was talking about the fact that Gammons reported McCarthy was one of 2 minor league players supposed to go from Chicago to Boston in addition to Ordonez. I don't know if it's true, but if it is Boston picked out probably the most valuable player in the Sox system then. It's an unsettling idea.

 

As for McCarthy, he pitched very well against Baltimore in his last start. It's too early to know which guy will be the better pitcher, but it certainly looks like a decent trade for the Sox if only because Danks has less service time. Masset:7.34 ERA 2.00 WHIP .329 BAA. 20/25 K/BB ratio. What do you see that I don't?

I read what you wrote, and my point is that who cares if McCarthy would have been asked by the Red Sox? Why wouldn't they? We're asking for the world with MB... But more importantly, the Sox got good value for McCarthy. The Red Sox and any other major league team is going to ask for the best they can get. I don't necessarily think they have super scouts that can find jewels in our system, and we're just clueless about it.

 

As for Masset, he's a rookie and in a unique pitching role. To play devil's advocate, I guess I could post McCarthy's stats and ask the same question to you. I think Masset has some value to our team, not necessarily as a starter, but much like McCarthy, I don't see how his short stint in the big leagues automatically sums up his future.

[Dick Allen]

Obviously the thought of resigning him did occur or they wouldn't have ever opened negotiations....I mean, unless you believe their intentions all along were to completely destroy his trade value and piss off a bunch of fans just so they could say "we tried". As I posted earlier, if you follow the sequence of events, there were obvious changes in direction on the part of KW over the course of the past year, but moreso over the past 2 weeks.

I understand your point, but I'm still skeptical about the whole thing. I just have the feeling that if Buerhle didn't require a NTC, there would have been some other deal breaker there. Under this scenerio, the White Sox may piss some fans off, but they don't come across as cheap, as they technically met Buerhle's financial requirement. And Buerhle can now go to the Cardinals, IMO the place he really always wanted to be, while still not looking to be totally full of it saying his first choice is to remain with the White Sox. If there was no public negotiation and the White Sox either traded Buerhle or let him leave at the end of the season, and he signed with St. Louis, how many people really would have believed his desire was really to stay in Chicago? This way he knows the Sox won't agree to the no-trade, he still offers a pretty nice discount, and he comes out looking like a champ. I think the White Sox would rather look stubborn not offerring a NTC than cheap and not paying the going rate on a pitcher of his calibur. The thing is pitching wins, and losing your best pitcher is really no way for a team thats struggling to get better any time soon.

[fathom]

Frustrated a little? Anyway, he doesn't exactly have the easiest role, but he has some decent stuff. I'm not prepared to ditch him...

 

He sucks....outside of his first relief appearance and his Cubs start, he's one of the worst pitchers in Sox history. 51 base runners in his last 17 relief innings is all you need to know.