LowerCaseRepublican Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 4, 2007 -> 10:16 PM) A bunch were on steroids. Few as blatantly and defiantly as Bonds, but no -- Bonds isn't a greater hitter than Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, DiMaggio, Mays...you know why? He may be better -- and even that is dubious, in my opinion -- but he isn't greater. You can't be great being a cheat. The HOF is filled with guys who used spitballs, sandpaper on the balls, played dirty, slid with the spikes up, used corked/superballed bats, emery boards on the balls, etc. Yet many of these people are honored, revered and given spots within the hallowed Hall. I like soda and a hot dog at the ball park without too much idealistic sanctimony and hand-wringing. If we have this utopian idea of what sportsmanship should be, then should we remove all these 'cheaters' from the Hall as well? As much as I find it reprehensible that Bonds is going to break this record because he's a really big douchebag off the field and has refused to help teammates in need, I don't want that to tarnish what he does between the chalk lines. We haven't excluded some others in the HoF because of their off the field antics of being an asshat to other people. He finished the 1998 season, at age 34, with outstanding numbers. Pre-juice, he had nearly as many walks as Aaron did in his entire career 1357 vs. 1383, his slugging percentage was 2 points higher than Aaron's career slugging percentage, he had won 3 MVP Awards (by the way he wins 4 more) vs. Aaron's career total of 1. Barry Bonds had won 8 straight Gold Glove awards compared to Hammerin' Hank's 3. Heck, by the time Barry decided that "Chicks dig the long ball" and guys with an abnormally enlarged cranium, he had stolen 445 bases while Aaron stole 250 bases in his 23-year career. Extrapolate away as to how much the performance enhancing drugs impacted his numbers, but pre-juice and post-juice the numbers suggest a comparable hitter who stole more bases and was an outstanding outfielder. While Aaron will have more hits, triples, RBIs, total bases and a modestly higher batting average, the overall statistics, though tainted, seem to favor Bonds. Each generation has its differences -- more games for Maris, the lowered pitcher's mound for Aaron, the steroid era for our generation -- so to not allow Barry into the HOF is incomplete by simply alleging that he used steroids. Case in fact -- Armando Rios used steroids and he still sucked more cock than a gay guy high on meth in a bathroom stall at a rave. Steroids do not a good hitter make in and of themselves alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 I'd have a lot more respect for Bonds if he just admitted that he took performance enhancing drugs. A blind man can see that he has take steroids. Why not just come clean and admit it? Oh well, Babe Ruth is still the best player to ever play baseball, and I highly doubt we will ever see a player better then Ruth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 I'd have a lot more respect for Bonds if he just admitted that he took performance enhancing drugs. A blind man can see that he has take steroids. Why not just come clean and admit it? Oh well, Babe Ruth is still the best player to ever play baseball, and I highly doubt we will ever see a player better then Ruth. Prove it. Tim Kurkjian did one of his tributes today to A-Rod, and he wasn't exactly as big as he is now. I know, I know, his HR total never peaked, but he is bigger now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Oh and BTW, people at these stadiums really grind my @$$. They boo, boo, and boo some more, but when it comes to s***ting or getting off the pot, they get off the pot. He walked off to a standing ovation. It's either you love him, or hate him, don't boo, then cheer, a$$clowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Amen, LCR. The "cheating" in baseball is a topic I find rather intriguing. Pitchers have always cheated (scuffing baseballs, using some type of tarnish, etc), hitters have always cheated (corked bats, stealing signs) -- it's just another aspect that baseball interesting. On that note, has anybody read this book? It's written by the guy who runs USS Mariner, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(briguy27 @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:01 AM) Prove it. Tim Kurkjian did one of his tributes today to A-Rod, and he wasn't exactly as big as he is now. I know, I know, his HR total never peaked, but he is bigger now. Look at his head. Your head doesn't increase in size like that unless you take steroids. ARod just grew into his body. His head has stayed the same size, or just about. Plus, his trainer was linked to steroids and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Look at his head. Your head doesn't increase in size like that unless you take steroids. ARod just grew into his body. His head has stayed the same size, or just about. Plus, his trainer was linked to steroids and such. That's always a great point, but until he admitts it, I still believe in Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Ha, Barry Bonds plays against almost the same amount of African American players that Ruth did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(briguy27 @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:04 AM) That's always a great point, but until he admitts it, I still believe in Barry. he is a great player and all, but I have very little respect for him, and I wouldn't even consider him in the top 5 hitters of all time, let alone top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(Shadows @ Aug 4, 2007 -> 10:13 PM) Maybe not dominated, but I don't think any of them would be as glorified as they are today when their careers were up So, is Timo Perez a Hall of Famer if he played in the 40's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:08 AM) So, is Timo Perez a Hall of Famer if he played in the 40's? Yeah since picking a s***ty guy already in this day and using him in that example is exactly what I was saying.. /you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 he is a great player and all, but I have very little respect for him, and I wouldn't even consider him in the top 5 hitters of all time, let alone top 10. Now you've taken it too far. Steroids and HGH, whether or not he took them, don't improve hitting ability and hand-eye coordination. He still had to amazing hand-eye and hitting ability to hit those homers, steroids or not. Here's my top 10. 1. Bonds 2. Ruth 3. Cobb 4. Gwynn 5. Rose 6. H Wagner 7. DiMaggio 8. A-Rod 9. Hammerin' Hank 10. Ichiro 10. Mantle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 So, is Timo Perez a Hall of Famer if he played in the 40's? Yes. One of the best hitters I've ever seen, that's for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(BearSox @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:03 AM) Look at his head. Your head doesn't increase in size like that unless you take steroids. ARod just grew into his body. His head has stayed the same size, or just about. Plus, his trainer was linked to steroids and such. Hey, he could have just drank some bad nerve tonic. And again, how is Bonds simply injecting steroids going to turn him into a monster player? Numerous pitchers and other hitters were using them when nobody freaking cared and most everybody just enjoyed watching 500 foot bombs fly over their heads in dumb, awestruck amazement. We didn't care how it got done, just as long as we could see them. This whole pseudo-outrage and hypocricy -- It is like sleeping with hookers and then trying to be the Bible toting evangelical after he gets busted with the expose pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(briguy27 @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:15 AM) Now you've taken it too far. Steroids and HGH, whether or not he took them, don't improve hitting ability and hand-eye coordination. He still had to amazing hand-eye and hitting ability to hit those homers, steroids or not. Here's my top 10. 1. Bonds 2. Ruth 3. Cobb 4. Gwynn 5. Rose 6. H Wagner 7. DiMaggio 8. A-Rod 9. Hammerin' Hank 10. Ichiro 10. Mantle Rose is not a top ten hitter. Gwynn is not a top ten hitter. That's crazy. -- LCR, it's a stretch to say that the HOF is "filled" with cheaters, and I doubt there are many, if any, who so thoroughly advanced their game with foreign substances. But I know that it isn't "filled." I can remember a handful of known cheaters offhand, and I don't think it's much more than that. So "a handful" out of "one hell of a lot more than a handful" is not "filled." Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Hey, he could have just drank some bad nerve tonic. And again, how is Bonds simply injecting steroids going to turn him into a monster player? Numerous pitchers and other hitters were using them when nobody freaking cared and most everybody just enjoyed watching 500 foot bombs fly over their heads in dumb, awestruck amazement. We didn't care how it got done, just as long as we could see them. This whole pseudo-outrage and hypocricy -- It is like sleeping with hookers and then trying to be the Bible toting evangelical after he gets busted with the expose pictures. Like I said, steroids don't improve hitting ability and hand-eye coordination. Power- yes, some. But like you say, many other players did it and weren't monsters. Take Juan Rincon, Guillermo (sp?) Mota, and Neifi Perez for example Finally, somebody agrees with me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) Rose is not a top ten hitter. Gwynn is not a top ten hitter. That's crazy. -- LCR, it's a stretch to say that the HOF is "filled" with cheaters, and I doubt there are many, if any, who so thoroughly advanced their game with foreign substances. But I know that it isn't "filled." I can remember a handful of known cheaters offhand, and I don't think it's much more than that. So "a handful" out of "one hell of a lot more than a handful" is not "filled." Sorry. I know, 4,256 hits is nothing. Neither is being a career .338 hitter and leading the NL in OPS 6 times. Edited August 5, 2007 by briguy27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linnwood Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(briguy27 @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 01:01 AM) Prove it. Tim Kurkjian did one of his tributes today to A-Rod, and he wasn't exactly as big as he is now. I know, I know, his HR total never peaked, but he is bigger now. Gary Sheffield admitted on HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel that both he and Bonds did "the clear" and "the cream." Sheffield, the moron that he is, rationalizes that they didn't "do" steroids since they administered them orally, instead of "shooting them in the butt." There is ZERO question that Bonds took steroids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(Linnwood @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:25 AM) Gary Sheffield admitted on HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel that both he and Bonds did "the clear" and "the cream." Sheffield, the moron that he is, rationalizes that they didn't "do" steroids since they administered them orally, instead of "shooting them in the butt." There is ZERO question that Bonds took steroids. to you there is zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(briguy27 @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:25 AM) I know, 4,256 hits is nothing. Neither is being a career .338 hitter and leading the NL in OPS 6 times. Rose would be the first to tell you he doesn't belong on that top ten list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:29 AM) Rose would be the first to tell you he doesn't belong on that top ten list. maybe hes just a modest guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Rose would be the first to tell you he doesn't belong on that top ten list. Ok. What about Gwynn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briguy27 Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) maybe hes just a modest guy Maybe. edit: 1500 POSTS. CONGRATS TO ME Edited August 5, 2007 by briguy27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linnwood Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 QUOTE(Shadows @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 01:28 AM) to you there is zero To anyone that is rational there is zero question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not going to contest it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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